Friday, May 02, 2008
“if the Maze was not to go ahead..”
The Culture, Arts and Leisure Minister, the DUP’s Edwin Poots, has already speculated about what he could do with the £70million earmarked for any development at the Maze stadium site this year - and Sinn Féin’s Paul Butler responded here. Now the Finance Minister, the DUP’s Peter Robinson, has confirmed that he will bring his decision on the business case to the Executive within three weeks. Presumably before moving into another office in the Executive. Adds More quotes here. From the BBC report.
[Peter Robinson] also said that if the Maze stadium was not given the go-ahead, stadia across NI would be improved. “I don’t think it is sufficient to say that if the Maze was not to proceed that we would walk away and do nothing with it,” he said. “No more is it sensible to say that if the Maze was not to go ahead that we would do nothing with football, rugby and GAA facilities elsewhere.”
Pete Baker @ 12:26 PM
As Nigel Dodds said in June 2007, a stadium at the former Maze Prison is not acceptable to the majority of people in NI if the complex was also to contain “a shrine to IRA terrorism”. And that’s before any discussion about putting the stadium in the middle of nowhere.
There is also the problem of trying to accommodate the GAA due to the different size requirements - plus their attitude to foreign flags, anthems and terrorists.
Environment Minister Arlene Foster still needs to de-list the building to ensure that whatever goes on the site is not tainted with murdering terrorists.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 01:35 PM**snif sniff**
I smell a bunch of rich lawyers
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 01:39 PMThankfully the unionist “majority” doesn’t count for shit anymore. All proposals for the site will have to have SF approval as will any reallocation of money from the proposed stadium.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 01:41 PMThey will come
The one proposal for the site which most unionists favour, doing nothing with it, does not require SF approval. You see, the politics of double veto gives the advantage to the status quo.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 02:07 PMBonarLaw, how long do you think that attitude will last when NI soccer people have to travel to England to watch their team? The GAA and rugby have no immediate need for the stadium, the soccer people do.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 02:12 PMThe total sports capital infrastructure for Northern Ireland until 2011 is 111 million pounds.
Annual expenditure on sports facilities across NI is usually in the region of 8 million.
Sport NI as part of the Olympic/Paralympic preparations in the run-up to 2012 has already provisionally allocated 53 million, including 15 million for the 50m pool.
Peter Robinson says:
“No more is it sensible to say that if the Maze was not to go ahead that we would do nothing with football, rugby and GAA facilities elsewhere.”
By my reckoning there is somewhere in the region of 34 million available for some sort of extra sporting infrastructure between now and 2011.
Emergency repairs to Windsor would cost in the region of 5 million and no doubt would have to be counterbalanced by 5 million for Derry City’s request for the Brandywell refit.
That of course means 10 million to the GAA and 10 million to the IRFU.
All wonderful except it leaves the IFA stuck with a maximum gate of 13,000 when they need a gate of 20,000 for international matches just to break even.
Meanwhile the IRFU rakes in the cash from Lansdowne the GAA from Croke Park.
The IFA is the big loser in Robinson’s master plan.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 02:25 PMThey will come,
“how long do you think that attitude will last when NI soccer people have to travel to England to watch their team?”
That’s not going to happen either.
“The GAA and rugby have no immediate need for the stadium”
Oops! - no need for them to get their panties immediately in a twist then - well, not for any “sporting” reasons anyway.
My bet is that PSF will get their CTC (on the same site as a the RUAS and a motorcycle track), football will get a new stadium (or upgraded one) in Belfast, and that Rugby and GAA will be given funds for them to re-develop stadia.
Can’t see many complaints there.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 02:30 PMGeorge,
“Emergency repairs to Windsor would cost in the region of 5 million”
How do you work that out?
I’ve heard various figures, but none close to that figure.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 02:34 PMWould 23M (70/3) be enough to redevelop Windsor get OWC back on its feet? If not OWC is screwed.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 02:39 PMEach sport will get aid according to its need.
Football is in the weakest position and theefore will require more assistance followed by rugby and GAA in that order.
Brian cowan will be glad to help rebuild Windsor as long as he understand “no strings attached.”Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 02:44 PMRealist
My bet is that PSF will get their CTC (on the same site as a the RUAS and a motorcycle track), football will get a new stadium (or upgraded one) in Belfast, and that Rugby and GAA will be given funds for them to re-develop stadia.
There is not a cat’s chance in hell of the IFA getting enough money to develop a new stadium in Belfast from scratch, or enough to put Windsor up, to say, hosting a European final. The amount of money required for that sort of thing is too much, and the GAA and the IRFU would have to get comparable amounts.
You’ll likely get enough to stop Windsor falling to pieces. Similar amounts of money could be used much more effectively by both rugby and the GAA. Really, you’ll be losers on this one.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 02:51 PMRealist
“(NI matches outside NI) is not going to happen either.”
You sound confident. If UEFA or FIFA say Windsor isn’t fit for purpose, what choice will the IFA have?
Ulsterfan
“Each sport will get aid according to its need. Football is in the weakest position and therefore will require more assistance followed by rugby and GAA in that order.”
Nah, to hell with that. Not a penny for any of them. GAA and rugby carry on regardless, soccer is screwed.
Frankly, the attitude of NI fans makes me actually want to see them have to play abroad. Let them come back when they’ve learned a little humility.
“Brian Cowen will be glad to help rebuild Windsor as long as he understand “no strings attached.””
Or some manners.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 02:55 PMkensei
Before we start talking about financial provision in the future lets get some redress for past discrimination against rugby and football when compared to the millions poured into GAA coffers .
Football was neglected on a massive scale and it is now that great help is needed.Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 02:58 PMkensei,
“There is not a cat’s chance in hell of the IFA getting enough money to develop a new stadium in Belfast from scratch, or enough to put Windsor up, to say, hosting a European final”
Let’s wait and see what happens now.
Why, in God’s name, would Windsor Park need to be re-developed to a standard to host a European Final?
The Maze proposals wouldn’t have been enough to meet crioteria for hosting such an event.
That’s a bizarre comment, and completely irrelevant.
Billy Pilgrim,
“You sound confident. If UEFA or FIFA say Windsor isn’t fit for purpose, what choice will the IFA have?”
I am confident that The Maze is dead, and International football in Northern Ireland will secure a stadium befitting it’s needs, going forward.
Whilst Windsor Park’s current capacity may not meet the business needs of the IFA going forward, there is little danger of UEFA/FIFA declaring it “not fit for purpose” in the near future.
Fans have obtained “assurances” that all WCQ matches will be played at Windsor Park over the next two years, based on the current capacity.
“Frankly, the attitude of NI fans makes me actually want to see them have to play abroad. Let them come back when they’ve learned a little humility”
You mean an attitude that says that we look after the best interests of our International team, going forward...and don’t get railroaded into something that won’t stack up?
Terrible, eh?
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:19 PMFootball is not a loser if the Maze is scrapped because the scrapping of the Maze will be the aversion of a long-term disaster for football.
The status quo for football is preferable to the Maze.
That does not mean, of course, that football will not seek financial assistance for improvements or even lobby for a new stadium in Belfast, perhaps in partnership with rugby and the private sector.
Football internationals will not be moved out of NI. George and Billy P may have believed Howard Wells about that one, but football supporters know Howard as the boy who cried wolf.
Howard told us the North Stand would be closed after the Sweden match in March 2007, yet four internationals have since been played with the North Stand open and the full schedule of World Cup qualifiers will be played at Windsor Park.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:26 PM“Football internationals will not be moved out of NI. George and Billy P may have believed Howard Wells about that one, but football supporters know Howard as the boy who cried wolf”
Amen Willlowfield.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:30 PMRealist,
5 million is the upper end figure mentioned last summer around the report by the Miller Partnership into safety at Windsor.Repairing Windsor Park to an acceptable standard for the capacity of 14,000, replacing the Railway and South Stands, was estimated at a minimum of 20 million.
So if we accept these figures (and generally such estimates turn out to be on the conservative side) even if Robinson was able to offer 20 million the IFA would still be operating at a significant loss.
If Wells is to be believed, the IFA need a 20,000-seater stadium.
How can they justify asking for public spending of at least 20 million to get a stadium that isn’t fit for IFA purpose?
Or is Wells telling porkies when he says 20,000 is the break-even point?
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:34 PMLet’s wait and see what happens now.
Indeed. SF have already threatened to veto a stadium in Belfast, and the natives are already getting restless about all the stuff the DUP is killing, so certainly interested to see what happens.
Why, in God’s name, would Windsor Park need to be re-developed to a standard to host a European Final?
Well, both Cardiff and Edinburgh are capable of it and it provides both prestige and financial boost to the hosting FA, raises the profile of the game and gives the locals the chance to see some top talent. It makes it easier and more desirable to co-host or support other countries bids for tournaments. Why the hell wouldn’t you?
The Maze proposals wouldn’t have been enough to meet crioteria for hosting such an event.
Really? I thought a 40,000+ stadium could have handled a UEFA Cup final, at least.
That’s a bizarre comment, and completely irrelevant.
I find the lack of foresight and ambition bizarre, myself.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:39 PMRealist and/or Willowfield,
do you know what the capacity will be for Windsor Park for the 2010 World Cup campaign?Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:42 PM“SF have already threatened to veto a stadium in Belfast. ”
Luckily they don’t have a veto on Belfast City Council, and some of their voters locally may not thank them for denying the city the economic benefits such a project would bring in the name of getting back at unionists (although I’m sure others would).
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:49 PMAs Realists say, Howard has been coming off with all sorts about Windsor in recent times - the facts remain: NI matches continue to take place at Windosr Park, at 14,000 capacity, and (we are assured) will do so for the duration of the 2010 WC Qualifiers.
I;d recommend a wait-and-see chaps, the DUP-SF bandwagon has been rolling along pretty nicely on a number of issues, I’d be willing to bet that a CTC on the Maze site is enough to keep the Shinners happy.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:55 PMAs Realists say, Howard has been coming off with all sorts about Windsor in recent times - the facts remain: NI matches continue to take place at Windosr Park, at 14,000 capacity, and (we are assured) will do so for the duration of the 2010 WC Qualifiers.
I;d recommend a wait-and-see approach chaps, the DUP-SF bandwagon has been rolling along pretty nicely on a number of issues, I’d be willing to bet that a CTC on the Maze site is enough to keep the Shinners happy.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:55 PM“Really? I thought a 40,000+ stadium could have handled a UEFA Cup final, at least. ”
Capacity is only one of the criteria (and it was 38k at the Maze IIRC, and that was only for GAA which would be part terraced - think it was 30.5k for football?). Other criteria includes hotel beds in the area (we fail on that for one).
The AoNISC produced a report on this a couple of years back. It included this:
Question: Can we attract a ‘Final’ match to the Maze?
Answer: No. Whilst a minimum capacity of 40,000 is needed, the SIB assures us that removable seating and turf will mean that fans will be moved closer to the action for football. However, this design assumes there will be no ‘moat’ around the pitch. New build stadiums need to have a 2.5m wide ‘moat’.Question: Ok, we’ll stick in a ‘moat’. Can we have the Final now?
Answer: No. There is also a rating system – five stars are needed to host a final and one of the criteria stipulates that the city the stadium is in/near must have enough bed spaces. As the chart below illustrates, the immediate vicinity could only provide enough beds for less than 25% of the capacity which excludes the Maze from being included:
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:55 PMGeorge,
“5 million is the upper end figure mentioned last summer around the report by the Miller Partnership into safety at Windsor.”
The Miller Report has not yet been published.
A draft was leaked (I wonder who by ;-)?) last July, which Wells used as a tool to try and frighten Northern Ireland fans into accepting The Maze proposals.
Unfortunately for Wells, Northern Ireland fans didn’t fall for that particular piece of scaremongering.
Windsor Park holds a UEFA Licence (requirements include satisfactory infrastructure), reviewed and renewed only last month...signed off by none other than a Mr Howard Wells on behalf of the IFA.
“Repairing Windsor Park to an acceptable standard for the capacity of 14,000, replacing the Railway and South Stands, was estimated at a minimum of 20 million”
Acceptable standard to whom?
Estimated by whom?
“If Wells is to be believed, the IFA need a 20,000-seater stadium”
If Wells bid me “Good Morning”, I’d look outside just to check that it was daylight.
If the IFA need a 20,000 seater stadium (25,000 I think would be more suitable), why, in God’s name, would any Northern Ireland fan want to give credance to a stadium with 35,000 seats?
“Or is Wells telling porkies when he says 20,000 is the break-even point?”
In the business plan that he submitted on behalf of the IFA to DCAL, in respect of The Maze, the figure given was an average attendance of 17,000 expected...was “maestro” Wells and his cronies planning on making a loss?
You see, Wells is a liar. When you’re a liar, you have to remember all the lies that you’ve told and be very cute...otherwise, your lies find you out.
Furthermore, Wells has discovered that the fans he is often so quick to look down his nose at (publicly and privately) are not just as daft as he thinks they are.
The good news is, as well as The Maze not proceeding, Wells will fall on his sword - if he is a man of his word in any shape or form.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 03:57 PMbeano
Luckily they don’t have a veto on Belfast City Council, and some of their voters locally may not thank them for denying the city the economic benefits such a project would bring in the name of getting back at unionists (although I’m sure others would).
They are however a significant presence on Belfast City Council, and I’m not sure that a stadium would bring any benefit to Belfast. I lived beside the Odyssey for two years, and am of the opinion that the idea of causing an even bigger traffic jam in the city is madness.
Additionally, it’s not simply about “getting back at Unionists”. I don’t think Nationalists would be too keen on paying for a stadium in East Belfast they will never use for dubious benefit. Even then - Belfast City Council doesn’t have the money. Hell, they can rationalise the Leisure Centres and still not have that sort of cash.
Posted by on May 02, 2008 @ 04:01 PM
