Wednesday, September 19, 2007
“If it is a policy regarding one school..”
The BBC has an update to the story I noted previously - on the disbandment of Amnesty International Groups in Catholic schools - which, ahead of the Irish Bishops’ Conference next month, would indicate that all other schools in the Catholic Maintained sector will be advised to follow suit. The BBC report quotes the auxiliary bishop of Down and Connor, Donal McKeown
“If it is a policy regarding one school, it certainly would be a policy regarding all the Catholic schools in the diocese of Down and Connor.”
Pete Baker @ 10:01 AM
Another nail in the coffin?
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 11:29 AMThe Amnesty move follows the general trend towards the use of rape as a weapon, and use of abortion to end the pregnancies which often result from such a campaign.
I know I speak for many Catholics when I voice my deep unease at moves to close Amnesty branches in schools (including my own) because of this. Bishop McKeown himself didn’t sound convinced on the radio this morning.
Without doubt abortion on demand is wrong, and its apparent use as contraceptive in some European states (Easy & West) but I find it diffcult to condemn victims of rape or incest who choose to abort. As would many other Catholics.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 11:37 AMi personally know of great work being done overseas by catholic laity and clergy in the fields of social justice and human rights. Take a look at trocaire to quote just one example. I also know that many catholics working in such fields just groan when they hear such pronouncements from on high.
The Catholic church does a lot of good work helping people in need. So does Amnesty International. It makes sense for them to work together. It is very backward looking of the church to ban Amnesty from organising in schools.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 11:52 AMBollix,
I believe that’s what JoeCanuck meant: another nail in the Church’s coffin. It’s a sad situation and they should be showing the children a better example.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 12:13 PMWe’ve already had seventy plus comments on the first story about this and still people can’t understand how the Catholic Church, which everyone knows is completely opposed to abortion, can no longer align itself with Amnesty which is campaigning for complete decriminalisation. The only scandal here is the wetness of Bishop Mc Keown’s remarks - probably why he will not be becoming the next bishop of Down and Connor.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 12:20 PMSplurge,
Why can’t the Catholic Church compromise for the greater good? Ensure for instance that the abortion issue isn’t mentioned by Amnesty in the RC schools. Seems the grown-up solution to me.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 12:27 PMDawkins - the compromise we had for years was that Amnesty was neutral on abortion. Pro-life people even then didn’t like this cos it meant we were campaigning on the death penalty for murderers and rapists but silent on abortion. But we accepted the compromise for the greater good. Amnesty have now destroyed that compromise. What I would encourage schools to do is continue with human rights work, but not as part of Amnesty. Schools in Australia are forming the Benenson society, named after the founder of Amnesty. Respect for human life is such a fundamental for the Catholic Church, how can we compromise on it?
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 12:41 PMSplurge,
In much the way you compromised on Limbo?
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 01:04 PM>>Respect for human life is such a fundamental for the Catholic Church, how can we compromise on it?<<
But they already do make compromises on their respect for their human life agenda e.g. paedophile priests.
The church has always had issues with womens bodies. Not so long ago women had to be “churched” after having a child. As though what they’d got up to was somehow impure.
If the church is to have any future relevance with kids it needs to work as a partner in schools rather than a dictator.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 01:11 PMGram,
Agreed. The Church could also stop being so bloody dogmatic. A little give would win it more friends.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 01:24 PMWhile we’re at it I offer another angle on some of the difficulties in supporting Amnesty International:
A few years ago I found that AI were not prepared to join those of us campaiging to draw public attention to paramilitary abuses such as knee capping. Although AI in NI had a written statement as to their opposition to these human rights abuses, they also stated that they could not act on it because of their policy that AI groups not to campaign in the countries in which they are situated. For several years now this policy has changed (since the end of the troubles?)hence they are active in schools etc.(Interestingly, although the CAJ has a central interest in policing issues, they too refused to put punishment policing on their agenda).However because of the courageous work of AI outside NI, I continue to support them - despite the black mark of inaction within NI. I suggest that people who do not like AI policy on abortion ought also to think of the bigger picture,continue support and agree to differ.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 01:28 PMDawkins: “Why can’t the Catholic Church compromise for the greater good? Ensure for instance that the abortion issue isn’t mentioned by Amnesty in the RC schools. Seems the grown-up solution to me. “
One does not, and should not, compromise on matters of principle, Dawkins. The Church believes that abortion is murder. It is a sincerely held belief. why should they have to compromise? Ammesty is not entitled to access to the RC church and is, in any case, unlikely to compromise on the point any more than the RC Church.
AI’s feet are just as clay and just as uncompromising as those of the Church, having abrogated one compromise—neutrality on the matter of abortion. Why should it be the RC Church to give way and not AI return to the previous status quo?
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 01:37 PMAh yes the church should compromise and not be so dogmatic on its teaching that killing an unborn baby is a mortal sin, I mean there’s such a lot of room for compromise there isn’t there?
Why should the church compromise? Why doesn’t AI compromise? Or at least go back to the previous compromise? And don’t give me the “it’s all because of Darfur” bollox, this is a smokescreen for the progressive hard left furthering its agenda.
Would AI compromise on torture, or the death penalty? No it wouldn’t, opposition to these two things are sacrosanct to the entire existence of AI. Well guess what opposition to killing unborn babies just happens to be a fundamental basis of the Catholic church.
I note the charge of hypocrisy was levelled at the church in the other thread to my mind the church is consistent, it is pro-life, anti-torture, anti-death penalty. AI on the other hand is pro-life when it comes to convicted murderers but seems to have no qualms about offing several million unborn babies every year, and of course we know the next step will be a call for the legalisation of euthanasia so that inconvenient oul’ wans can be bumped off by their impatient relatives as a “human right”. Believe me that will be the next item on the agenda once abortion is bedded in.
No it’s not the Catholic church that is being inconsistent or hypocritical I’m afraid.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 01:40 PM>>I note the charge of hypocrisy was levelled at the church in the other thread to my mind the church is consistent, it is pro-life, anti-torture, anti-death penalty.<<
Harry you forgot about “pro-paedophilia and anti-contaception”.
I don’t think anyone on this thread is asking for the church to change it’s stance on abortion just that they should agree to disagree with AI on this issue and work together on other areas where they have broad agreement.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 01:49 PMHarry Flashman,
“... to my mind the church is consistent…”
You obviously missed my post on Limbo. Churches by their nature are not consistent. How could they be?
I’m asking the RCC to be less dogmatic in this case, and for once have a little respect and human feeling for the women victims.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:06 PMIf Amnesty International said that it was not appropriate to have Catholic sub groups in their branches, would the same level of criticism and accusations of dictatorship apply ?
Or would we simply say, well it’s the AI group, it’s up to them, the church should but out.
If people want to be catholic they are free to do it outside of AI if they wish.The underlying agenda here is the Catholic Church should not have any say in anything, including outside organisations organising in their own schools.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:10 PMAbucs,
Straw man. Amnesty is open to all religions. The RCC is a single religion.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:12 PMDawkins, i do not believe Limbo was ever dogma.
It was however a philosophical development that may still, or may not be true. The churches move was to clarify that it is not dogma.It’s like Buddha sitting under his tree. One perceived bit of information allows you to ponder on what else is likely to be true.
It’s like saying if there is a realm outside of this universe it makes sense to think our origins come from there, it then makes sense to think there is intelligence there that creates, it then makes sense to say that intelligence has some sort of relationship with creation, it then makes sense to say that we can enter that other realm, it then makes sense to say that there is a criteria or process for entering, it then makes sense to say there are stages of processes for different situations ....... limbo.
The concept of limbo was along these philosophical lines, not a matter of church dogma to my knowledge.
To my mind it was a major theme and development of western rationality and logic played out under the guise of religion as so much of our western thought was. It is part of our history.
Of course you can disagree with its initial assumptions, but the exercise of rationality and logic from given assumptions leads to many many hypothesies. Limbo was one of those.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:21 PMDawkins,
i’m not talking about individual Catholics in AI, i’m talking about an organised sub group of Catholics in AI. The same as an organised sub group of AI in Catholic institutions.
I don’t think the Catholic Church has said members of AI cannot attend their schools ?
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:24 PM*I’m asking the RCC to be less dogmatic in this case, and for once have a little respect and human feeling for the women victims*
The number of abortions which are carried out as result of rape is miniscule and you know it. AI isn’t calling for abortion in the case of rape to be legalised it is calling for abortion to be classed as a human right.
The Catholic Church has an extremely consistent and unyielding stance as regards rape and incet, it condemns these sins and condemns them in the gravest possible way, it has done so for nigh on two millenia, it’s nice to see AI catch up. The Catholic Church has the deepest sympathy for victims of rape it just believes that abortion is not the appropriate response.
Let me put it another way, many people are traumatised by the fact that the murderers of their loved ones can get out of prison and be free to walk the streets a few years after they commit murder. I am sure AI sympathises with these victims but it does not believe that the death penalty for murder is the appropriate answer to this situation.
People ask whether the Catholic Church should compromise on abortion in the case of rape and incest, to which I ask in reply would Amnesty International compromise on torture and the death penalty in cases of men convicted of rape and incest?
No, I don’t think so either.
PS I am no theologian but I understand that Limbo was never actually a fundamental tenet of the Catholic faith, I am open to correction on that point.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:33 PMAbucs,
Limbo may not have been dogma to you but it was to countless unfortunate parents throughout history, lied to by their Church that their unbaptized children would languish there. This is why I’m suggesting they lighten up now on this issue.
Why on earth would a group of Catholics organize within a nondenominational organization like Amnesty? It’s a straw man.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:34 PMThis isn’t a thread on aboution or the morality behind it. Personally I think it’s a disgrace that women have to go all the way to Liverpool for an abortion, but I don’t agree with using abortion as being used as another form of contraception.
Once again I point out the RCC are “advising” that schools stop facilitating young people who want to hold an AI meeting after school. Times change as do trends, unfortunately the RCC seems content to live in the past and try and enforce that on their young people.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:48 PMGram - what is the point of continually mentioning paedophile priests? We all know that individual priests, bishops and parents failed to protect children. But it was never a teaching of the Catholic Church to do so, quite the contrary. Just throwing it in everytime there is a discussion about Catholic issues is tiresome and fruitless.
As for limbo, it was a notion to comfort parents whose children had died without baptism, that they would not be going to hell. Now in a great act of revisionism it’s presented as keeping them out of heaven. The Church seems to have moved to a more agnostic position now - we don’t know where they end up but hopefully God has a way of reconciling the need for baptism and his infinite loving mercy.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:51 PMMy understanding of the concept of limbo was not that it was a permanent place of residence.
It was more like purgatory in that beings must be a certain way to enter Heaven. Part of this thought came from the belief that this universe is also a place for us to grow spiritually before entering the other realm.It is interesting that Buddha under his tree came up with similar thoughts. Only his version of purgatory and limbo was re-incarnation.
The underlying ides of purification and illusion of this universe seperated from Heaven / Enlightenment / Nirvana are very similar.
It all flows from the acceptance of spirituality and the existance of a realm outside of our universe.
My comments on the theoretical idea of catholic organising in AI was to contrast peoples reactions if AI was to turn around and say - it is inappropriate. My question is to ask would such a wide ranging attack on AI be the justified response. I think it is very evident that it wouldn’t. In that case i suspect sensible reaction would prevail.
OK, time for me to go.
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:51 PMPounder,
“using abortion as being used as another form of contraception.
FFS, et tu Pounder?! On the other thread two peeps insisted abortion was contraception when it patently is not.
Write out 100 times:
Abortion is a form of birth control.
Abortion is a form of birth control.
Abortion is a form of birth control.
Abortion is a form of birth control.
Abortion is a form of birth control.
Abortion is a form of birth control.See, I’ve made a start for you :0)
Posted by on Sep 19, 2007 @ 02:58 PM
