Wednesday, November 28, 2007

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1. New Yorker

   “Does any reasonable person not think the Provos actually did commit the murder?”

   The question is more complex than that. Smuggling is big business in south Armagh, the only industry of any significance there. The black economy of south Armagh used to bankroll the IRA to the tune of millions every year. The key men in that industry were senior Provos. Of course they were. That was their role in the “war effort”.

   Now the war is over, but the wheels of industry grind on, and those millions go into the pockets of guys who used to be senior Provos but are now senior organized criminals. The murder of Paul Quinn looks decidedly like a gangland hit (or a gangland beating gone too far), with of course a strong twist rural Irish republican paramilitary-style “justice” thrown in for good measure.

   So you see the question is complex. The people who did it probably were Provos (or at least ex-Provos) and the fact that they expect to get away with it probably stems from that fact. But that’s not the same as saying the Provos did it.

   Of course there is a precedent for all this. By the mid-1930s DeValera had to do what would have once seemed unthinkable and proscribed the IRA. He then set about hunting down his old comrades and, in some instances, hanging them. The old IRA men hadn’t realised that the situation had moved on, and that their former comrades had too much at stake for old loyalties to get in the way.

   What are the chances that the first act of our new Justice Minister Gerry Kelly will be to form a crack unit of reliable old comrades, whose job it will be to come down hard on the unreliable old comrades?

   Because make no mistake, this is a “to catch a thief” scenario. Only republicans can clean up south Armagh. No-one else can.

   Broy’s Harriers Mk II anyone?

   Posted by  on Nov 29, 2007 @ 03:50 PM

2. Red Diesel
   Your may be right about Rogers death being self-defence, but surely that doesnt alter the fact that there are other people capable of killing in South Armagh rather than just Provos.

   I think Billy is right. Those involved must have provo connections..past or present… but that is different to the “provos done it” in the sense that it was an act carried out by the provisional ira.

   Posted by  on Nov 29, 2007 @ 05:04 PM

3. Billy

   Your post is fine up to a point, however Dev’s Broys Harriers were no longer in the IRA, whereas to date many of the leading shinners are. Which makes the current situation completely different, not least because a percentage of the oil cash is in all probability still being used to finance the IRA[P] and its command structure which is still in place.

   So the only way the likes of Gerry Kelly could hunt Provos down, is if they had been dismissed from the ranks. The whole point of what we are being told by the family of young Quinn and others is that is not the case with those who murdered their son. It is unthinkable that a punishment beating of this type was a free lance operation. It is not logical to suggest this matter does not go to the very top of the IRA[P], as the individual whose writ runs throughout this area is CoS; and his approval for such a beating which involved so many men would almost certainly have been sought.

   So the situation is not comparable with what happened in the 1930s, if any thing it is far worse for the people on the ground. As neither the State nor their political representatives, which in this case is SF, are prepared to help them out. They are quite literally on their own against a State which is refusing to act and the PIRA which SF is backing to the hilt.

   This is an unforgivable betrayal on the part of SF, for after gaining the political support of the people of this area, they are shitting on their own constituency. Anyone who votes for Mr Murphy next time around after he has publicly lied and sided against his constituents and stood with people who are now masquerading as freedom fighters against a grieving family deserves nothing but contempt.

   Pastor Martin Niemöller magnificent poem springs to mind,

   First they came for the Jews
   and I did not speak out--
   because I was not a Jew.
   Then they came for the communists
   and I did not speak out--
   because I was not a communist.
   Then they came for the trade unionists
   and I did not speak out--
   because I was not a trade unionist.
   Then they came for me--
   and there was no one left to speak out for me.

   Posted by  on Nov 29, 2007 @ 05:08 PM

4. A lot of families of murdered Protestants in South Armagh could be forgiven in asking where were the 600 people in Cullyhanna demanding justice for their loved ones over the last 30 years. Not many of tem came forward to even attend a funeral of a single Kingsmill victim.

   A cynic might suggest that the people of Cullyhanna have played with fire, profited from it for 30 years and now have got badly burned. Providence has a way of bringing back on you what you inflicted on others.

   South Armagh is a blackspot of genocide and human rights abuses aided and abetted by the local community - It would be nice to see it annexed to Cambodia or Iraq.

   Posted by  on Nov 29, 2007 @ 05:15 PM

5. I find it hard to understand why someone could condemn a whole, totally terrified, community for not having the courage to stand up.
   It’s sad, indeed, but when standing up probably meant a death sentence, I can understand.  I don’t know what I would have done, to be honest.

   Posted by  on Nov 29, 2007 @ 05:29 PM

6. just about the whole of the working class or rural north (90%) should then be annexed as even the dogs in the street knew who was up to what over the last 30 years. maybe you didn’t know who was pulling triggers or planting bombs, but i’m sure just about everyone knew about things that could have helped the police. To the best of my knowledge, there’s never been a queue of people waiting to give information outside a cop shop.

   Posted by  on Nov 29, 2007 @ 05:38 PM

7. “Interesting to read of hardline, law and order, shoot to kill Unionists becoming oh-so-concerned about the killing of a Fenian by other Fenians.

   No whiff of self-interested headline grabbing sordid little politics there, then.”

   I think we should all be concerned, Jo, about any killings committed by groups ruling over us in government.  Aren’t you?

   Posted by The Watchman on Nov 29, 2007 @ 06:27 PM

8. Billy Pilgrim

   You say “What are the chances that the first act of our new Justice Minister Gerry Kelly will be to form a crack unit of reliable old comrades, whose job it will be to come down hard on the unreliable old comrades?” But you also say “Because make no mistake, this is a “to catch a thiefâ€� scenario. Only republicans can clean up south Armagh. No-one else can.” So, who is going to clean up South Armagh? Anyone?  Or are this pack of murderers being allowed to remain free while they wait for another kill? 

   Your police do not seem capable, considering it is over a month since the murder, up to 20 involved, two eye-witnesses and no one arrested or held as suspects.  Bertie Ahern says a criminal gang is responsible, and all agree, but then what - do nothing about it?  He seems to be condoning murder on his turf.  Maybe the British Army has to be brought back in full force in the area until it is cleared up if no one else can or will do what has to be done.

   Posted by  on Nov 29, 2007 @ 08:08 PM

9. I have to agree, New Yorker. Under the circumstances, I’m somewhat amazed that the police on both sides of the border have not invited anyone in to assist with their enquiries.
   I say both sides because, although the brutal bonechilling murder was carried out in the South, there must have been a conspiracy carried out in the North.

   Posted by  on Nov 29, 2007 @ 08:57 PM

10. Joe Canuck

    Both governments, North and South, appear to be making no effort to solve this horrendous murder.  In so doing, they are condoning it.  How many more mangled corpses until they defend their citizens? 

    This is the type of thing that could land a country on the US State Dept. “Do Not Travel” list and being on that list has not only a negative effect on tourism but investment as well.

    Posted by  on Nov 29, 2007 @ 10:14 PM

11. LOL New Yorker

    the do not travel list? thats over selling it a little isn’t it?

    If Saudi Arabia can’t maker it onto that list how is nIreland or Ireland ever going to make it?

    Posted by  on Nov 30, 2007 @ 12:42 AM

12. “Both governments, North and South, appear to be making no effort to solve this horrendous murder.  In so doing, they are condoning it.  How many more mangled corpses until they defend their citizens?” - New Yorker

    Quite a few. Organised crime depends on the threat of violence to succeed; and the threat of violence depends on acting on that threat in enough incidences to convince others that the threat is real. Murders like Paul Quinn would need to be scheduled yearly to be effective, backed up by regular so-called ‘punishment beatings.’

    The governments are fully aware that PSF/PIRA is an active mafia. They are also fully aware that turning a blind eye to that mafia in order to give cover to PSF allows it to conduct its business with de facto political immunity. I don’t think you should expect morality from a government who bribes a murder gang with political power. As the song says, “A king who would slaughter the innocent will not cut a deal for you.” The nationalist community also has a vested interest in turning a blind eye to the true nature of the movement it voted for.

    But it is encouraging that mainstream media such as BBC’s Newsnight is beginning to ask relevant questions about a government policy of turning a blind eye to organised crime because of who the criminals are.

    Posted by  on Nov 30, 2007 @ 01:34 AM

13. Dubliner

    This may have been a dirty secret of the governments but now it is getting known in the wider world.  It’s not a situation that can be defended by the governments amongst their friends in the international community.  The BBS Newsnight was good as is the RTE Primetime which includes an interview with his parents.  But the print media do not seem up to the task so far.  They should have reporters and researchers in the area on the story.  They should be asking those in government with responsibility for criminal justice difficult questions.  I hope your press is not as spineless as ours was in the run up to war in Iraq.

    Posted by  on Nov 30, 2007 @ 02:34 AM

14. I agree with the last few postings.  The IRA has not gone out of business and has no intention of doing so.  Perhaps it’s the right time to recall the glib rubbish from the octogenarian Chuckle Brother that IRA/Sinn Fein had already signed up to policing and the rule of law.  Paisley was totally wrong then and now he and his party are still helping to carry on the cover-up.

    Posted by The Watchman on Nov 30, 2007 @ 09:26 AM

15. Interesting to read of hardline, law and order, shoot to kill Unionists becoming oh-so-concerned about the killing of a Fenian by other Fenians.

    No whiff of self-interested headline grabbing sordid little politics there, then.

    Posted by Jo on Nov 29, 2007 @ 03:26 PM

    What a horrible little person you are, a boy gets brutally murdered and all you can do is try and score political points.  Murder is illegal in this country no matter what goverment you look to.  Look hard in the mirror before you accuse anyone of sordid little politics, especially since “hardline, law and order, shoot to kill Unionists” as you put them are the ones in government with Sinn Fein and actually tried to help the shinners brush it under the carpet by stating that it wasn’t “corporate IRA”.

    Posted by Pounder on Nov 30, 2007 @ 09:55 AM

16. New Yorker

    “So, who is going to clean up South Armagh? Anyone?”

    Like I said, only republicans can - I can envisage a situation where they will be republicans in uniform. As I suggested, in Ireland we’ve seen this movie before. Broy’s Harriers in the 1930s. Reliable republicans mandated by a republican minister to hunt down unreliable old comrades - a task they carried out, undoubtedly with a heavy heart, but with a ruthless efficiency that once and for all finished off the IRA as an irregular force in the Free State.

    For an American example, it’s like giving Pat Garrett a tin star, in the knowledge that only he could hunt down Billy the Kid.

    “Or are this pack of murderers being allowed to remain free while they wait for another kill?”

    Come on, you’re a New Yorker, you know how difficult it is to deal with organized crime. No doubt there’s a hysterical reaction in your city every time there is a mob hit, but actually taking down the Five Families requires years of diligent, low-key, relentless hard work from police. It’s not a simple matter in New York, you know this. I would suggest that it’s even more complex in south Armagh.

    “Maybe the British Army has to be brought back in full force in the area until it is cleared up if no one else can or will do what has to be done.”

    With this comment you have taken your credibility, scrunched it up into a little ball and tossed it out the window. Clearly you understand south Armagh about as much as I understand advanced theoretical astrophysics. Your suggestion is (and I’m sorry to say this) quite literally the worst idea I’ve ever heard.

    Posted by  on Nov 30, 2007 @ 01:13 PM

17. Billy Pilgrim I must correct you. Smuggling is not big business in South Armagh any more since the border has little meaning in terms of price differential. It is only in areas of differing fiscal policy such as fuel that there is much to be had. It is true that there is a particular attitude to smuggling which is simply not seen as crime in any sense, but more as exploitation of the closest thing to a natural resource that we possess. But this is not the popular pig-tied-to-the-crossbar smuggling of old. You still need enormous turnover to make much from the diesel, and most of all you are at the total mercy of whoever controls the retail outlets or commercial users you are getting into. It is impossible to sell smuggled diesel within 30 miles of the border since people can fill up themselves. The best market seems to be the Ards Peninsula, the markup is very good. There is little romantic cover for the diesel launderers, because everyone knows there will be an environmental disaster soon. The Cullyhanna operators are very crude bastards and have already let sludge into Sheetrim river.

    Posted by  on Nov 30, 2007 @ 04:04 PM

18. I can claim little knowldge of South Armagh and none of the views of the nationalist population thereof. However, it seems to me that the population there are in a similar position now to that of the working class Protestant communities in areas controlled by the alphabet soup.

    I do not know what proprtion of the South Armagh nationalist population genuninely supported the IRA and what proportion simply kept their heads down and ignored the problem. To be honest one can see exactly why people would not stand up to the IRA. What does seem fairly clear now is that many are living in fear of a mafia style IRA leadership intent on making money from illegal activities and essentially keeping their malign grip on the lives of the community they keep in thraldom.

    The question is what can be done to stop this situtation? It seems that most people apart from some of our political masters wish to see it stopped. Our political masters be they the SF / DUP or those in London and Dublin simply do not wish to upset the apple cart let alone admit that their beloved process is resulting in legal immunity for a mafia.

    Asking the community themselves to save themselves seems to me (as a total outsider) naive. Giving information to the PSNI or Gardai would seem to be a good way to end up like poor Mr. Quinn or others before him. The fact that people are willing to stand up at all does, however, imply that many in the local population would welcome rescue possibly from people whom they previously percieved as the enemy.

    Whilst New Yorker’s suggestion is probably not applicable, I would suggest Billy Pilgrims has very significant problems. It means replacing one group of murdering thugs with another lot who may or may not remain loyal to those who send them to do the “cleaning up”. The new thugs could equally simply set themselves up as a new mafia and mutliple people would no doubt die in what would simply be gun battles bewteen a group of sanctioned criminals and another group of non sanctioned criminals.

    Also whilst it may have been semi acceptable 80 years ago such clearly extra judicial action now would ammount to massive formally sanctioned collusion. This plan would inevitably create grivance in the very area which is supposedly being liberated and might well drive the local population back into the arms of the local IRA.

    The next problem is that when De Valera sent in his supporters to stop the then refusnicks he (De Valera) had achieved most if not all he had wanted to with armed insurgents. The remaining IRA members were not only an embarassment but no longer politically useful. The republican movement of today is not yet satisfied with the status quo and still wants to move towards a united Ireland, in a way that I would suggest De Valera had stopped wanting in much more than an abstract and theoretical sense. This is evidenced by the suggestion of leading SF members that the IRA has not gone away and suggestions that a future generation of republicans might have to go back to violence. As such whilst the South Armagh IRA may be a temporary embarassment for SF they are still a most useful bargining chip and as such SF will continue to give them political cover.

    The only way by which SF might be made to think that the IRA and army council et al have outlived their useful function would be if the other parties demanded proper cooperation of SF with the police regarding IRA crimes, threatened to leave the coalition unless and until the army council was disbanded, proper cooperation with the police occured etc. Sadly now the DUP are not demanding that and in the absence of the DUP doing so the governments and other parties are not going to do so. Hence I would suggest that in this instance the IRA, SF, the DUP and governments are all effectively saying to the population of South Armagh “Croppies lie down”.

    Posted by  on Nov 30, 2007 @ 05:05 PM

19. Billy Pilgrim

    You solution as to who is to clean the place up as the Broy’s did down South assumes there are such men in today’s republican ranks.  I doubt there are.  In this case sending a thief to catch a thief would result in two thieves having a picnic.  So, what’s your next suggestion?  What other resources do the governments have to deal with the problem? 

    Comparing a murder case to one in NY City is quite amusing.  Over 8million versus under 40,000 in South Armagh.  In NY if the police had two eye-witnesses and 20 suspects, there would have been arrests and arraignments in much less than six weeks.

    Posted by  on Nov 30, 2007 @ 05:11 PM

20. “Come on, you’re a New Yorker, you know how difficult it is to deal with organized crime.” - Billy Pligrim

    Perhaps you should write to the NYPD’s Chief of Police and inform him that he should hire the Mafia to “clean-up” the Mafia. I imagine that his reply would be pure comedic gold.

    Posted by  on Nov 30, 2007 @ 05:28 PM

21. Red Diesel

    Many thanks for a very interesting post. It tallies with much of what I know about the place. I’m a few miles to the north of you (Armagh city, Harps, Mid Board). I have a lot of friends from south Armagh and have been very familiar with the place since I was nine and scored a point as my school beat Crossmaglen in the McGreevy Cup. (Of course from then on, every other trip to Cross was to get a hiding. Of the football variety, I hasten to add!)

    But I know enough about south Armagh to know that mine is still very much an outsider’s knowledge.

    Turgon

    Just to clarify, I certainly wasn’t suggesting an extra-judicial force. I was suggesting a sort-of squad charged with breaking of smuggling and organized crime in republican areas, but one that would be very much within the PSNI, and under the direction of a local Justice Minister. (The realpolitik would be that it’d have to be a SF Justice Minister, or at least co-minister in charge.)

    Better yet, the squad could be a cross-border effort: existing within the PSNI/An Garda Siochana / Criminal Assets Bureau / Assets Recovery Agency and under the direction of the Ministries of Justice in Belfast and Dublin.

    And I’d also better clarify that I’m not suggesting they start killing people either - that would be totally disastrous and totally wrong. What I am suggesting is rigorous enforcement of the law by those who could actually do it.

    So perhaps I should say they’d be Broy’s Harriers for the 21st Century - ie more respectful of human rights than their predecessors.

    So they wouldn’t be “thugs”, as you suggest Turgon. They’d be that rarest of things - men in uniform who could effectively police the border areas.

    “The new thugs could equally simply set themselves up as a new mafia and mutliple people would no doubt die in what would simply be gun battles bewteen a group of sanctioned criminals and another group of non sanctioned criminals.”

    As I said, they’d be policemen.

    Admittedly the reference to Broy’s Harriers is not an exact one. I’m thinking out loud myself here. But the one thing I do know is that republicans will have to be part of the solution here.

    “The remaining IRA members were not only an embarassment but no longer politically useful.”

    Here I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I think the old IRA members are increasingly embarrassing to our new masters at Stormont, and I honestly do believe that Marty and Gerry are closer to a DeValera moment than you suspect.

    As I say, any reader of Irish republican history knows that the day there’s a republican Justice Minister in Stormont will be a bad day for Slab Murphy.

    And I wish I hadn’t mentioned New York.

    See? This is why I always try to avoid analogies!

    Posted by  on Nov 30, 2007 @ 06:33 PM

22. quinn was a easy touch but the same mistake wasent goin to be made wit him as was wit the hog o c.the hog was carrying and done his attacker,s but the heavy mob went in heavy on quinn just incase he was also carrying.he wasent and got the lynching that wasent witnessed since winnie mandella and her mandella fc done stompy

    Posted by  on Nov 30, 2007 @ 08:28 PM
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