Wednesday, September 12, 2007
How to make Unionists comfortable with Irish
An interesting remark from SF’s Francie Brolly on Monday during question time:
I do not accept that the rights of Irish speakers should be subject to consultation.
I have to say, that makes me feel an awful lot better about the impending Irish Language legislation. He continued:
A right is a right.
Indeed it is, the right to life for example is not negotiable. Any “right” to speak Irish is in no way infringed in Northern Ireland, if it were Brolly might have a point. As it is, his comments only serve to cement the feeling amongst Unionists that this is not a rights issue, but a cultural warfare issue.
Michael Shilliday @ 09:21 AM
Michael Shilliday
“The only actually bilingual province is Quebec, because there are actually a lot of people there who don’t speak English.”
Go the back of the class. Bilingualism is the ability to fluently speak two (or more) languages. A province isn’t bilingual (or monolingual) people are.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 12:03 PMSean, I took French in School. I think I’m right in saying that packaging for Coke here is also in Arabic. There is not very much unusual about your points there!
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 12:18 PMI think you’re wrong there Ulster, but it’s not a major point.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 12:19 PMMichael
“I think you’re wrong there Ulster, but it’s not a major point.”
I’m not wrong - and it is a major point - if you are talking about bilingualism you should understand what it means - you’ll become a lot more informed about the issues surrounding minority languages, endangered languages, and language revival (if such a thing is possible).
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 12:46 PMUM
“but that doesn’t fully explain your apparent opposition to an ILA”
It offers one of the reasons, that it is unecessary legislation because of the present provision and scope for development through it.
As I have said on a number of threads I am not absolutist on this, if nationalism wants an ILA it needs Unionist agreement and I have suggested that they instead of stamping feet going gimme it in ever shriller tones they should try to make a deal around cultural issues with Unionism. The crafting of a deal would also be an example of devolution working to overcome problems.
“What do you think of the Gaelic language Act and Welsh language Act in GB, do you think the same result could be achieved with the measures you highlight above?”
Pretty much yes.
“If you are not opposed to the acts in Scotland or Wales why are you opposed to an act in Northern Ireland?”
They are already there and up to their local jurisdictions o my opinion on the utility of such acts is not particualrly relevant to them I would have thought.
Unrelated to the topic of the legislation, I have a general wariness around demands for more legislation especially one that has a price tag.
As regards language issues my general impression of language activists is they overestimate how much state action led to decline in language use and thus overestimate the benefits of legislative action. I’d also like to now the price tag, ILA or not, we are living beyond our means.
IMO the GLA is similar to the ILA, a legislative totem pole that won’t deliver any great results. State jobs for the Gaels isn’t the answer.
No minority languages in the UK receive identical treatment or support, approaches are adpated to their individual histories, positions and needs.
“It’s been year zero for Irish in Northern Ireland for half a century, give or take, with the deaths of the last native speakers. As long as parents don’t pass Irish to their children it is year zero. Whatever measures we are talking about here should be about building critical mass.”
Public investment is up.
Gaelic languages groups say public interest in it is up.
The number being educated in Irish is up.
The number learning it is apparently up too.
Also many pro-ILA people talk about the size of the irish speaking community (even if Census figures are a dodgy basis for language policy).Your negative narrative seems to be unsustainable.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 12:58 PMActually, New Brunswick is the only constitutionally bilingual province.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 12:59 PMSean,
‘as far as place names go they are the same in e/f just whether it says rue or street or both’
...which sounds like lip service to me, on that issue.
‘All packaging must be in english and french’
...which goes further than the situation in the Republic, even. Besides, what is the Irish for monosodium glutamate?
‘all government services are available in english and french’
... ah, the crux. What the ILA is all about, IMO, is discriminating in public-sector employment against those without knowledge of Irish (I hesitate to use the phrase ‘non-Irish speakers’ as, realistically, apart from education, special interest groups specifically for that purpose, and for ‘exclusionary’ purposes, when is it used in the North?). Jobs for the bhoys, in effect.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:01 PMglútamáit mhonasóidiam
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:04 PM‘glĂştamáit mhonasĂłidiam’
Thanks for that, gaelgannaire ;-)
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:09 PM‘How to make Unionists comfortable with Irish’
1. Blanket ban on speaking Irish in public forums and the work place.
2. Blanket ban on all signage in the Irish language.
3. Gradual re-anglicisation of all Northern Ireland place-names.
4. Removal of all funding from Irish medium education.
5. Banning of the public use of a Gaelic surname.
6. Compulsory registration and social service monoriting of Irish speaking families.
7. Banning of the use of Irish in broadcasting.
8. Removal of all funding of Irish language organisations.
Whatever Irish still existing after that I am sure the majority of unionists would be relatively comfortable with. At any rate, the above sits well with DUP policy.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:12 PMOr should that not be ‘glĂştamáit monashĂłidiam’!
http://www.mwhb.ie/documentation/foodlabels/Nutritional P Irish 2 pane.pdf
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:12 PMSuilven,
Actually I agree with your version.
But I don’t think Mick Fealty’s bank balance could survive a ‘obair baile’ v. ‘obair bhaile’ debate.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:16 PM“As I have said on a number of threads I am not absolutist on this, if nationalism wants an ILA it needs Unionist agreement and I have suggested that they instead of stamping feet going gimme it in ever shriller tones they should try to make a deal around cultural issues with Unionism. The crafting of a deal would also be an example of devolution working to overcome problems.”
Equally, Unionism could be pro-active. It takes two to tango. Also, save me the “it’s Nationalism that wants it” line, as Unionism will be happy to stamp it’s feet on any number of other issues. Some of which will eventually require Nationalist support.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:16 PMgaelgannaire/Suilven
Here’s a good site for Irish vocab. which I use a lot:
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:22 PMA Chormaic,
I’m too old to switch to focal.ie.
I’ll be an acmhainn.ie man until the day the Tuath de Danann hush me into the coiste bodhar on me way to TĂr na hĂ“ige - thanks anyway
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:25 PMMichael Shilliday
“Why should tax payers shell out massive amounts so that people who can speak English perfectly well, have the option to deal with the state in Irish?
Firstly, Irish speakers pay taxes too and are entitled to services in the indigenous language of the region.
Secondly, what ‘massive amounts’ of money? If only the most significant services and documents are provided in Irish, any costs involved would be far from massive.
Investment is needed in the Irish Gaelic education and media sectors but properly phrased development will make this possible.
Even though bilingual road signage isn’t covered by the proposed Act, recent information from Transport Scotland and the Welsh Assembly Government has revealed that the cost difference between bilingual and monolingual signs is less than 10%, not the 30-40% quoted by the NI DRD.
FAIR DEAL
...even if Census figures are a dodgy basis for language policy.
It’s not only census figures we base our data on but also the NI Life and Times survey and last month’s Millward Brown study that found that about 17,000 people use Irish at home. That’s not even taking the many other fluent Irish speakers who do not use Irish in the home into account.
SUILVEN
Why do you need Glútamáit Mhonasóidiam?
And Irish is used extremely rarely for ‘exclusionary purposes’. By claiming so you simply illustrate how little you know about the Irish language community.
Irish, as you say, is used in education here, but also in the media, at the doctors and dentists, in car dealerships, at home, in the pub, in the office, on the football field. The list goes on…
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:28 PMIt’s defintely GlĂştamáit MhonasĂłidiam folks.
Glútamáit is feminine. As Cormac says, check focal.ie
SuĂomh maith atá ann, nĂos fearr ná acmhainn.ie ar go leor bealaĂ ach tá tĂ©armaĂocht ag acmhainn nach bhfuil áit ar bith eile.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:34 PMRG Cuan,
I stand corrected.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:37 PMFrankly the whole cost thing is just a blinder played because people are more emotional about their wallets than anything else
Except for some initial translation expenses bilingualism does not have any real costs and the translation costs can be spread out over many years so that these costs are minimal
As for preferential hiring of bilingual speakers? Well there is a slight advantage in government jobs if you are bilingual, the fact that they are government jobs means they are keeping the useless people out of the job pool so thats not so bad
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:39 PM“SuĂomh maith atá ann, nĂos fearr ná acmhainn.ie ar go leor bealaĂ ach tá tĂ©armaĂocht ag acmhainn nach bhfuil áit ar bith eile. “
I find focal.ie particularly good for IT/technical terminology.
Had a look at acmhainn.ie - a bit clunky but if it’s what you’re used to… Will probably use both, though.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:52 PMRG Cuan,
‘Irish speakers… are entitled to services in the indigenous language of the region.’
I don’t believe regions have languages - people do, and the lingua franca of Northern Ireland is English, like it or not.
‘17,000 people use Irish at home’
There are 8000 Chinese in Northern Ireland, some of whom may be genuinely disadvantaged from access to public services by a lack of English. No doubt they pay taxes, just like Irish or English speakers. But I don’t see anyone lobbying for a Cantonese Language Act. Maybe Anna Lo should introduce one - we’d then see how far that got.
‘Why do you need GlĂştamáit MhonasĂłidiam?’
To tickle the fifth taste!
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:53 PMIncidentally, anyone know what Chris McGimpsey’s (Ulster Unionist and Irish language enthusiast)opinion on the ILA is?
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:59 PMI don’t know whether you noticed how poor old Michael ran for the hills when he was challenged on the cost issue - ie the voter registration forms in ten languages in total only cost ÂŁ1500!
Irish medium education pupils get less per head than those in any other sector - yet they get better results, according to a report by Eamon Hanna commissioned by the Department of Education.When these inconvenient facts notice how the unionist commentators just ignore them - and then shortly afterwards come back to cost as if the matter hadn’t been raised and DEALT WITH.
In Scotland, where there bilingual signs already, the cost of including the Scots Gaelic version of a name (or more aptly the English translation of the original Scots Gaelic name) is only marginally more expensive than the monolingual version, significantly less than 10% according to a spokesperson for Scottish Transport who spoke with Lá Nua last week.
Surely there are some unionists out there who don’t read and believe the tripe in the Newsletter and can see that the benefit of an Irish language Act far outweigh the costs.
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:59 PM“I don’t know whether you noticed how poor old Michael ran for the hills when he was challenged on the cost issue”
I know, I’m still awaiting a response as to whether his opposition is purely to do with cost… and if the Irish government agree to assist in some way with funding, then what’s the problem?
Posted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 02:05 PM...and I’m still waiting to find out if my little synopsis of @ 02:12 PM basically summed up the unionist position.
While we are waiting have you noticed this language shift relevant video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_ltIlAeYAPosted by on Sep 12, 2007 @ 02:11 PM
