Friday, March 14, 2008
Hibernians boycott Ohio parade…
So says Pub philosopher, primarily because the local organisers ignored the local Catholic bishop’s plea to have it today. In Savannah, Georgia, they are more obedient, and are celebrating Paddy’s Day today instead. Seems Mark’s not the only one who’s irked by church law. It’s an interesting question for Republicans. Who should set ‘national’ holidays: the church or the respective civil bodies?
Mick Fealty @ 12:49 PM
Bob,
“It’s a Catholic, not an Irish, celebration.”
Per the official site of the NYC parade (http://nyc-st-patrick-day-parade.org/default.aspx), here’s guidelines # 2 and 4 for all parade participants:
2. All units must have two (2) flags. Irish & American flags or no flags at all. NO EXCEPTIONS!! An American flag on the right and an Irish flag on the left.
4. The only banners allowed are ones identifying the unit or “England Get Out of Ireland”. Only one banner for each unit. NO EXCEPTIONS!!Then there’s this interesting tidbit: the Savannah parade (I believe the 2nd or 3rd largest in the states) was actually started by, dare I say it, Prods!
- 1812: Hibernian Society of Savannah formed by 13 Irish Protestants to help needy Irish immigrants.
- March 17, 1813: First private observance of St. Patrick’s Day in Savannah by the Hibernians.
- March 17, 1824: First public procession [that would be parade, Bob] by the Hibernian Society [you know, the Prods].
The saddest part of the bigoted attitude of NY’s SP parade decision makers is that they fail to recognize the true history of that parade – that it began as an impromptu protest by Irish immigrants because they weren’t allowed to have an official parade. And now, all this time later, they decide to exclude certain Irish Americans because of their sexual orientation. And to hide behind the cloak of Catholicism’s teachings is all the more despicable – the US was founded on separation of church and state. While that doesn’t always happen in practice (look at our current president), it is still something we should, at the absolute very least, aspire to.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 06:52 PMpaddy’s day is Ireland’s national day and it is on 17th march, period.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 06:53 PMSlugFest: “The saddest part of the bigoted attitude of NY’s SP parade decision makers is that they fail to recognize the true history of that parade – that it began as an impromptu protest by Irish immigrants because they weren’t allowed to have an official parade. And now, all this time later, they decide to exclude certain Irish Americans because of their sexual orientation. And to hide behind the cloak of Catholicism’s teachings is all the more despicable – the US was founded on separation of church and state. While that doesn’t always happen in practice (look at our current president), it is still something we should, at the absolute very least, aspire to. “
A couple of points—the seperation of church and state does not mean the subordination of the church by the state, at least not yet. Likewise, like the proverbial devil, almost all politicians find they can quote Scripture when it suits their purpose.
As for excluding ILGO, regardless of whether the stated reason is religious or not, there is still the first amendment issue of free association. The right to freely associate is also the right to not associate.
Is short, life isn’t fair. Anyone who tells you differently probably is selling something.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 07:11 PMDread,
I accept your well-made points. i just find the whole NY AOH crowd overbearing and tedious.
My final point on gays not being allowed in the nyc parade was more of an aside (though I do find it very unseemly)—the main point of my post was to dispute Bob McGowan’s claim that it’s a Catholic, not an Irish, thing. As the courts have upheld, the NYC parade commission can indeed exclude groups of various persuasions. However, no particular group can claim ownership to St. Paddy’s day.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 07:31 PMPaisley, naturally enough when you think about it, reveres Patrick, rather than St. Patrick.
If you honour a saint, then the Catholic Church are going to have a say on the feast day, on the understandable basis that they invented sainthood.
Paddy’s day is more than a shorthand, it’s the green version of Happy Holidays.
It will be cold or wet, and on Orangeman’s Day the sun will shine, proving that there is a God in Heaven, and his dog is named Luther.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 11:32 PMMy final point on gays not being allowed in the nyc parade was more of an aside (though I do find it very unseemly)—the main point of my post was to dispute Bob McGowan’s claim that it’s a Catholic, not an Irish, thing. As the courts have upheld, the NYC parade commission can indeed exclude groups of various persuasions. However, no particular group can claim ownership to St. Paddy’s day.
Sorry, Dread, but I’m afraid that you didn’t research more thoroughly. The NYC parade is sponsored by the AOH which holds the permit for the parade as you. Now, the rules of the AOH here in the USA are quite specific:
Membership in the Ancient Order of Hibernians, Inc. is confined to men 16 years and older who are practicing Roman Catholics of Irish birth or descent and who are citizens of United States of America or who have declared their intentions to become citizens of the United States of America.
So, the AOH itself is a Catholic organization. And, the parade is in honor of St. Patrick as the patron saint of the Archdiocese of New York and pauses at St. Patrick’s Cathedral to recognize the Cardinal Archbishop of New York.
And, over the years, Catholic institutions of the NY Archdiocese have been and are widely represented, not only by their students or whatever of Irish Catholic background but also by students or whatever of any Catholic background. When I went to a Catholic high school in the Archdiocese, the whole school marched, including those of Italian, or German, or Polish, or African, or Chinese, or Hispanic, or whatever background. And the same is true of all the Catholic institutions that marched.
BTW, the ILGO was not banned because they are gay but because they insisted on publicly proclaiming that a gay lifestyle was/is morally OK, a position which is directly contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Now, you may certainly think that the Church should revisit and revise its teaching in this instance—and I might well agree with you—BUT the ILGO is publicly holding an opinion that is directly contrary to the Church’s teachings as things now stand.
Sorry, Dread, the NYC St Patrick’s Day Parade is a Catholic celebration first and an Irish celebration secondly.
Posted by on Mar 15, 2008 @ 03:02 AMOoops! Got the wrong poster. Sorry, Dread, but the post should have been addressed to Slugfest.
Mea culpa, etc.
Posted by on Mar 15, 2008 @ 03:05 AMBTW, I see Slugfest is claiming some historical authenticity for the Savannah St. Patrick’s Day Parade and it’s certainly well-earned,
BUT, the St. Patrick’s Parade has been an annual event in NYC since 1765 and they haven’t broken the string yet.
There is, however, one dubious entry into the string. In 1888, NYC was struck by a blizzard a few days before March 17. BUT, the AOH has determined that the single, solitary horseman who rode the parade route on March 17 to tell the folk there would be no one following him was enough to preserve the string unbroken.
Hmmmm . . . . .
Posted by on Mar 15, 2008 @ 03:19 AM“Anyone know the year Easter fell on Christmas Day?
I’m afraid that I don’t, Smasher. My father though used to tease us by asking when Christmas Day fell on Easter Monday. He would ask us children that same question every Christmas for many years and infuriatingly would smile enigmatically and refuse to answer, simply shaking his head and repeating the question, “Ah hah, when did Christmas Day fall on Easter Monday? Do you know the answer to that now?” We did not and it was not until I was quite grown that he revealed the answer.
Apparently a steeplechaser named Christmas Day took part in the Grand National at Fairyhouse held on an Easter Monday as is traditional and came a cropper on the fences. I can’t tell you in which year though. I can’t even be sure that he was correct but horse-racing was his passion. I will now try and acess the records to see if the tale holds water.
Posted by on Mar 15, 2008 @ 09:01 AMThe St. Patrick’s Day custom came to America in 1737. That was the first year St. Patrick’s Day was publicly celebrated in this country, in Boston. The heathens over here can celebrate Paddys day any time they want. Catholics follow the dictates of the Church. BTW, in Boston Evacuation Day falls on the same day, and city workers (politicians) have the day off, so it’s a pahty no matter what..
Posted by on Mar 15, 2008 @ 03:54 PMThe first recorded celebration of St. Patrick’s Day in the American Colonies was in Boston in 1737, and the first St. Patrick’s Day celebration in New York City was held at the Crown and Thistle Tavern in 1756. You New York mucs never give it a rest, do you… Fair play to the Giants, f**k the Yankees.
Posted by on Mar 15, 2008 @ 04:03 PM
