Friday, March 14, 2008
Hibernians boycott Ohio parade…
So says Pub philosopher, primarily because the local organisers ignored the local Catholic bishop’s plea to have it today. In Savannah, Georgia, they are more obedient, and are celebrating Paddy’s Day today instead. Seems Mark’s not the only one who’s irked by church law. It’s an interesting question for Republicans. Who should set ‘national’ holidays: the church or the respective civil bodies?
Mick Fealty @ 12:49 PM
Is this not the same as the 12th falling on a Sunday and if you come back with the not a “national” holiday I believe there would be plenty here who woudl disagree
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:29 PMSt Patrick’s Days throughout March
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:39 PMWhy are they having it today, when St Patrick’s Day is tomorrow?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:46 PMWillowfield,
St. Patrick’s day is on Monday, not tomorrow. I assume the reason the Catholic Church don’t want it on the actual Monday is because it would happen during Holy Week.Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:51 PM“It’s an interesting question for Republicans. Who should set ‘national’ holidays: the church or the respective civil bodies?
I don’t really see that there is any problem, Mick. We have national holidays and Church high days and holy days. The government will set the dates for national holidays and the Church will set the dates (indeed these dates are already long established by the Church) of high days and holy days.
The state is under no obligation to aid the celebration of Church holy days although custom and practice in most of Europe including England and Ireland has formerly facilitated the Church in this regard. Hardly surprising given the state control of religion since Henry VIII. Sunday closing, Easter, Whitsun and Christmas holidays reflect this facilitation although corporate greed ("convenience shopping") is steadily eroding this tradition.
Where, as on St. Patrick’s Day, the celebrations of Church and state celebration are focused on the same thing there may be concession by either side, as there is to be in New York or not as in Ohio.
Incidentally what reason have the organisers of the Ohio parade given for their reluctance to hold the secular celebration on the 17th. If the Church can move to accomodate New York can not Ohio simply stick to satisfy its citizenry?
In any case the problem of St Patrick’s Day (17th March) occurring during Holy Week only arises every 68 years so why all the fuss?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:51 PMWillowfield - there seems to be some confusion about this. The bishops in the US say it should be moved to the 14th but some people in Ireland seem to reckon the 15th is the alternative day.
I don’t know if it’s just poor communication from the Vatican or what.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:52 PMGeorge
St. Patrick’s day is on Monday, not tomorrow.
No: it’s been moved to Saturday because it clashes with Holy Week. So why is Ohio having their parade today (Friday)?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:53 PMIf I heard right, our FM, Ian Paisley, had a St Patrick’s Day breakfast this morning with a group of children from Holy Cross and Wheatfield at the La Mon Hotel. He’s probably delivered his ‘sermon’ on the life of St Patrick by now.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 01:57 PMSteve
Maybe the Infallible One has decreed that you can’t have Paddy’s Day on Monday, but left it up to the local hierarchies to decide when to have it instead?
The AMericans have said Friday, but the Irish have said Saturday?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 02:02 PMIt has created a lot of confusion. It doesn’t feel like St Patricks day at all, I was over at the Variety Market and not many people wearing shamrock.
When I saw a man with shamrock in his lapel, not relaising that the Catholic church had moved the date. I thought what is this fella at wearing shamrock three days early.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 02:20 PMAre you in America?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 02:30 PMNo I’m in Belfast and yes I know its supposed to be on Saturday here but I saw a few people today in the Variety market with their shamrock on.
A few of them are involved in community work and Peter Lavery the lotto winner was there also. I wonder if there may be some Americans investors in town.
That could possibly why some people are wearing shamrock today.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 02:53 PMI don’t really see what’s the problem. The church says that Holy Week takes precedence over a saint’s day so they will celebrate it tomorrow. It’s not even (for those for whom it matters) a Holyday of Obligation as it usually is. Monday still remains the secular holiday. Of course it’s all the excuse some people need to celebrate three days running.
They’ve been selling shamrock all week. I haven’t worn it for years and stay well away from any sort of St Patrick’s Day celebration.
[Bah humbug]
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 02:58 PMI’m very confused by all of this. Can anyone explain to me which denominations observe Holy Week and as a result are shifting the date this year? I think I may just hedge my bets and celebrate it tomorrow, and again on Monday.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 03:02 PMHere in New York, the site of the largest St. Patrick’s Day celebration in the world, the Cardinal Archbishop will celebrate the liturgical St. Patrick’s Day today and will celebrate the civic St. Patrick’s Day on Monday when the parade will march up Fifth Avenue as usual. The Cardinal will, as is the custom, review the parade from the steps of St. Patrick’s Cathedral and many dignitaries will step out of the parade to greet him—as is the custom.
For the record, BTW, the NYC parade is NOT in honor of St. Patrick as the patron saint of Ireland but of St. Patrick as the patron saint of the Archdiocese of New York. And, due to the sheer size of the NYC parade, St. Patrick’s day celebrations take place throughout most of March. After all, there are only so many bagpipe bands to go around. Case in point, the Nassau County parade was on March 2.
The feast day of St. Joseph, traditionally a day for Italian Americans to celebrate their heritage(though much more quietly than the boisterous Irish) is also affected by the liturgical celebration of Holy Week.
As I see it, the liturgical celebration is subject to the usual Church practices, but the civic celebration is not the business of the bishops—though they are certainly free to abstain from them if they so choose. Tempest in a teapot. I’m very much afraid some of our bishops think they are somewhat more important than they really are.
Before moving to Long Island, I lived in the Diocese of Brooklyn but worked in the Archdiocese which means I was dispensed from the Lenten fast and abstinence while I was at work but obliged when I was at home. What fertile ground for an overscrupulous conscience!!
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 03:13 PMIs the Irish gay group still banned from the parade?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 03:16 PMInstead of celebrating St. Patrick’s Day on both days, some Irish Americans here on LI started their celebrations on March 2 and intend to continue until the last of the local parades on March 30 or so. I understand those who are Catholic will tone down during Holy Week, especially for Holy Thursday-Easter Sunday, but . . . . .
It’s not really a new problem for them.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 03:20 PMIs the Irish gay group still banned from the parade?
Yes, and rightly so since the Parade honors St. Patrick as the patron saint of the New York Archdiocese and celebrates the contributions made to the City by Catholics of all ethnic backgrounds.
It’s a Catholic, not an Irish, celebration.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 03:26 PMSt Patrick’s Day is on 15 March this year. It is always moved on the rare occasions when it clashes with Holy Week If the state celebrate it on 17 March they are celebrating on the wrong day which of course they are free to do.
But it is hardly secular to celebrate a Saint two days late. If you want to be secular you shouldn’t celebrate Saints at all.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 03:27 PM‘Yes, and rightly so since the Parade honors St. Patrick as the patron saint of the New York Archdiocese and celebrates the contributions made to the City by Catholics of all ethnic backgrounds.
It’s a Catholic, not an Irish, celebration.’
If so could they stop flying our national flag at the event and fly something else (Flag of white South Africa maybe or the Confederacy.)
Anyway weren’t some of the contributing New York catholics gay? Many of the clergy were.
And doesn’t St Patrick pre-date the whole silly Catholic-Protestant split.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 04:03 PMIt’s on different days in Ireland and America because of the relative importance of St Joseph and St Patrick. St Joseph’s Day is the 19th and St Patrick the 17th normally. In Ireland St Patrick’s is a more important day as it is a holyday of obligation, which St Joseph isn’t. In most countries St Joseph is more important and therefore is moved to the day closest to the actual date which means Saturday 15th. So in Ireland today is actually St Joseph’s Day.
The State can celebrate whatever it likes but Monday isn’t St Patrick’s Day this year. And in any event, the State has always played a double game by linking holidays to feasts without actually marking them - so we have (in theRepblic) the October bank holiday (instead of 1 November All Saints like much of Europe), the June holiday (instead of Pentecost) and the August holiday (instead of The Assumption).
As regards parades - the civil ones do it when they want and in much of north america they’re held the weekend before St Patrick’s Day. The one’s organised by religious groups, like the Hibernians are different and are more likely to go with the Church.
Every year you get some crazy local politician wanting to fix the date of Easter as if it could be done by legislation.
Anyone know the year Easter fell on Christmas Day?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 04:10 PMSmasher Lagru - thanks - useful information.
Bob McGowan - “It’s a Catholic, not an Irish, celebration” - how come all the paddywhackery, then?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 05:10 PM(Peadar O’Donnell) If so could they stop flying our national flag at the event and fly something else (Flag of white South Africa maybe or the Confederacy.)
----
A fair enough point despite the bizarre adding of South Africa and even more bizarre adding of the Confederacy.Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 05:41 PMwhat exactly are we supposed to believe that a ‘saint’ is?
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 06:15 PMWillowfield: “Is the Irish gay group still banned from the parade? “
Last I had heard, that is the case.
I would argue its a constitutional issue—the right to freely associate is equally the right to disassociate. As ILGO is not the group organizing the parade, they don’t get a vote on who is or is not in the parade. The court decided that the parade amounts to speech and that the parde’s organizers have the right to exclude the group.
Posted by on Mar 14, 2008 @ 06:30 PM
