Saturday, February 09, 2008
“He was sidelined to the point of being removed from any work.”
Following on from yesterday’s MI5 protective custody for Adams’ driver story there are a couple of reports worth noting. In the Irish Times, Gerry Moriarty notes, “Sinn Féin Assembly member Alex Maskey said he and other senior republicans were disappointed but not terribly surprised by the news.” While in the Guardian Henry McDonald reports that -
“It is understood MI5 advised him to leave his west Belfast home after it emerged that an internal IRA investigation found he had been working for the British for more than a decade.”
Which would raise the question - who exactly was conducting that investigation? And, with McShane reportedly already ‘sidelined’, to what end? This Irish News report may point to a possible answer.. [subs req] Updated below
Adds Also in the Irish News [subs req]
In February 2006 Sinn Fein unexpectedly replaced all its Belfast-based drivers and bodyguards for Mr Adams and other senior republican politicians. It is unclear if this decision was linked to suspicions that McShane was working as a spy.
Originally from Lurgan in Co Armagh, he had lived in west Belfast from his early teens, sharing a house in the lower Falls with IRA leader Billy McMillan in the mid-1960s.
He is understood to have been a member of the Territorial Army for a time during this period.
Throughout the Troubles McShane worked as a cabinet maker in west Belfast.
It is understood he served little or no time in prison.
However, he was implicated in one of the worst murders of the Troubles when West German industrialist Thomas Niedermayer was abducted and killed in December 1973.
In the 1980s McShane is known to have been a member of the IRA ‘nutting squad’.
As a member of that unit he was close to Freddie Scappaticci and, ironically, would have had the task of exposing agents within the IRA.
In 1989 that internal security unit was stood down over concerns that it had been infiltrated by the British intelligence agencies.
In what would prove to be a crucial mistake the IRA moved many of those involved in the ‘nutting squad’ into protection and driving roles for the Sinn Fein leadership.
For more than 20 years McShane was regularly seen driving the Sinn Fein leadership to and from meetings.
Following the decision to bring an end to McShane’s role as a Sinn Fein driver he is understood to have been working as a taxi driver in the lower Falls where he had been living in recent years.
Republican sources last night recalled that McShane had shown strong contempt for Sinn Fein administrator Denis Donaldson after he was exposed as a British agent in December 2005.
And from another Irish Times report by Gerry Moriarty [subs req]
A senior Sinn Féin spokesman yesterday suggested that in recent years, at least, the party suspected McShane was an informer. “He was sidelined to the point of being removed from any work.” Nonetheless, while he did not have a strategic role in the party, he was physically close to those who did - and at important times in the long negotiating process that finally led to the May 8th, 2007, powersharing deal. He’s been around a long time.
This will hardly be the last such revelation, which has caused quite an amount of shock in west Belfast and other republican areas. When Lord Eames and Denis Bradley and other members of the commission on the past travelled to London to examine the Stevens papers on collusion, they were said to be shocked by how deeply the IRA and Sinn Féin were infiltrated.
If MI5 could land catches such as Denis Donaldson and McShane, it follows that it is likely it netted other senior figures. It is likely that if McShane was outed, others too will be exposed, perhaps on a drip-drip basis to cause continuing embarrassment to Sinn Féin. This latest revelation should not destabilise the current regime at Stormont, but it will upset ordinary republicans, causing them to wonder what the “war” was about, was the IRA leadership really in control, who was genuine, who was a “tout”. That must be uncomfortable and annoying for Adams and other leaders, but it is just something they must live with it and manage.
Republicans said McShane could return to west Belfast if he makes peace with his family and his community and that he was under no threat from the IRA. But McShane will be mindful that Denis Donaldson, in whose company he was often seen at Stormont, had similar assurances, and yet ended up gunned to death in a cottage in Donegal.
Pete Baker @ 01:06 PM
perci
Keep it civil.
And get back to the ball.
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 07:08 PMhow bout a sense of humour peteb, its dubs last w/end.
There’s an RTE report on Adams reaction to the spy story, can you link to it?Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 07:25 PM“..What you have conceded in the GFA is that you have no right to self-determination, i.e. that you have no right to live in an Irish nation state.”
No, what I have conceded is that this place won’t change hands until 50%+1 of the population agrees to it, which was true prior to 1998 (mostly; there was still the risk that Unionism could try and overturn democracy again. This at least makes it explicit that they are doing it).
“… accepting that the legitimate claim to self-determination in the territory of Northern Ireland lies with those who are British.”
When? If those who are British in Northern Ireland lose a referendum on reunification, then their claim is null and void. I am not sure there is a workable alternative.
“...you don’t want to accept that you gave up your birthright”
I didn’t get a vote. Moreover, I am an Irish citizen and have precisely the same rights towards the Irish Republic I had prior to 1998.
“… Letting your politicians hoodwink you into grandiosely re-naming the Unionist Veto as the Principle of Consent means you now have an aspiration, not a right.”
No, there is a difference and it matters. The Unionist veto means that regardless of the size of the Unionist vote, it requires a majority of Unionists to be in favour. The Principle of consent says 50%+1 and if every man, woman and child within Unionism objects, then tough.
Unionism bet it would always be a majority and could never lose a referendum. Given their vote continues to drop, that is a dubious bet at best.
“and granting it to the political class within NI will have the effect of ensuring that that political class will have zero intention of forsaking their power and de facto voting for their own disbandment and power structures by seeking unity...”
Here I’ll grant you there is some risk. However, SF is an All Ireland Party, Fianna Fail is soon to organise here: the dynamic should change. And the final word rests with the electorate, not the “political class”.
“...a clause into it which requires the nation state to be disbanded and self-determination forfeited for no gain whatsoever to the citizens of Republic of Ireland.”
This is nonsense, no matter how many times you say it. In the worst case Stormont would continue under Dublin; more likely there will be negotiations and a new agreement on the shape of the future state. Regardless, you are going to run straight into identity issues whether you like it or not: Ireland is now awash with hundreds of thousands of immigrants.
“yadda yadda yadda entity must be ‘rigorously impartial’ between Irish nationalism and British nationalism, and a government that is partial to Irish nationalism, yadda yadda balls”.
Union Jack still flies over Belfast City Hall. And lots of other places. You are wrong.
“they will still rightly conclude that they will have more power as 45% of an un-united population than they will have as 14% of a united population”
First, 14% of 100 is greater than 45% of 10. Second, if they lose a referendum 55-45, the game is over.
“the citizens of the Republic of Ireland will rightly conclude that they should not forfeit their right to self-determination just because a bunch of Nannystate addicts who contributed not a penny in taxation to the Republic of Ireland “
Ah, of course. We are all spongers. I think I’ve heard that line somewhere before…
Moreover, support for Unification is consistently high. Which party would object, especially considering Ff will be organising here?
“See, Kensei, old sport, all that happens when you bury your head deep in the sand is that you drown in the next tide.”
No, I think about these things and how they could be possible. You repeat endlessly the same shite without thought.
“Perhaps you see the wisdom now of why the Republic of Ireland refused to “enforce its claim”? The gangsters you voted for have seen that wisdom but far too late for 3,600 people and far too late for unity in any of our lifetimes, if ever. The tragic irony is that if you didn’t support violence as a means of furthering your own selfish interests, you’d all be in a united Ireland by now. “
First up, I am literally too young to have “supported violence” and I would have supported an armed campaign in the North only up to the point required to defend people’s home’s and persons from attack. Second, if Ireland won’t press it’s claims by force, it could try it by diplomatic means. It did a few times: I refer you Margaret Thatcher’s response.
There was zero hope of a United Ireland happening spontaneously on it’s own. Now we at least have a mechanism for achieving it and terms for doing so. I am a committed republican and believe I can win the argument.
Any chance you could put the 3 page long rants to bed now? I really don’t want to have to go through all this again.
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 07:26 PMThe reality as it is and was spelt out at last well done Dubliner but you are conversing with people with an agenda. They will never admit the truth.How many innocent nationalists did this man and scappatici murder to cover themselves.the brits and adams and co have a lot to answer for.
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 07:36 PMThat’s the part you lot couldn’t grasp: the Republic of Ireland was committed to exclusively peaceful means, not squalid sectarian violence that could only end in civil war and not unity.
Posted by The Dubliner on Feb 09, 2008 @ 05:25 PM
Very similar to how many may have described the war if independance i would think. Dubliner get ur head out of your arse before you talk about the foundation of the Irish Republic. The catalyst for the formation of the state was the easter rising. Don’t fool yourself by suggesting the irish people supported it. That is where the vote for Sinn Fein came from. Undemocratic violence was what formed the irish free state not democracy. And the cowards who forgot what republicanism was, such as Collins or De Valera caused the troubles.When did they forget that republicanism was about uniting the green and orange? It was not about creating an ultra catholic state where they didn’t have to bother with protestants. It was much easier not to deal with these problems however for them so lets just make an empty constitutional claim and pretend we are upholding the ideals of irish republicanism. Why was divorce illegal if protestants were equal in the south? The fact is, they were not. The catholic church had primacy and this caused. Division and certainly was in no way republican don’t lecture the north on ur problems as if the south is a non-sectarian haven. Some of the sectarian and anti-british attitudes I found in Dublin would so unfounded it was a joke. Could I ask you how often you are north of the border?
And where are you living and paying your taxes?
The last taxes i paid were to leinster house, does that make me irish?
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 07:41 PMAren’t they all paid by the British now?
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 08:03 PMIs this conversational tangent by the republicans here a deliberate attempt to change the subject or are they just inveterate gobshites?
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 08:05 PMIs this conversational tangent by the republicans here a deliberate attempt to change the subject or are they just inveterate gobshites?
Posted by Shore Road Resident on Feb 09, 2008 @ 07:05 PM
Not trying to change the point, just had to let of some steam. You don’t seem to have contributed to the subject so it appears you may have been using it to have a snipe at republican posters. Could you clarify this?
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 08:09 PMI know its been said many times and in many different forums, but doesn’t the fact that the British Gov’t has informers/colluders in all these para groups make THEM look worse? It seems like they were practically directing the troubles for decades, killing who are effectively their own citizens. If it turned out some of the really big fish are touts, I think the embarrasment/rage that came from that exposure could be the end of British rule in the North.
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 08:47 PMIRIA,
It’s a just another mess. The connection with Scappiticci and even Donaldson is doubly embarrassing, since it gives an impression that there were times when there were enough informers in the organisation so that they could have talked openly together with impunity. Though I would also guess MI5 and the other intelligence organisations were running their own ‘cell systems’.
My guess is that Sinn Fein will bare the burnt of the ignominy again, since it is their integrity being called into question.
It is certainly ironic that in Britain the authorities are rightfully getting seven bells knocked out of them for bugging MPs and Lawyers in their conversations with suspects, whilst in Northern Ireland an MP has his car bugged and now we discover they have running an informer as his chauffeur is okay.
And yet there is not a thing can be done about it, since the SAA puts all of this in a lead-lined vault that cannot be opened by any democratic or judicial process. Such limited opportunities that pre-existed, were effectively closed by a deal that involved the two government, the DUP and Sinn Fein.
So was the leak intended to punish? If it originated with MI5 it hardly seems likely it was designed to pull unionists back into line. And if it was intended as punishment, why trigger it now?
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 09:41 PMThroughout the Troubles McShane worked as a cabinet maker in west Belfast.
It is understood he served little or no time in prison.
However, he was implicated in one of the worst murders of the Troubles when West German industrialist Thomas Niedermayer was abducted and killed in December 1973.
I found the information below on CAIN in a section entitled “Sudden deaths due to a heart problem
during by an incident related to the conflict”11 March 1980
Thomas Niedermayer (45) nfNI
Status: Civilian (Civ)Remains found buried by Collin River, off Glen Road, Collin, Dunmurry, near Belfast. He died shortly after being abducted by the Irish Republican Army (IRA), from his home, Glengoland Gardens, Suffolk, Belfast, on 27 December 1973.
A case of a journalist not getting his (or her) basic facts straight. How much of the rest of the article can we believe?
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 09:42 PMThanks for that pic. But if you think that falsifies the rest of the article, you aren’t reading widely enough.
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 09:47 PM“No, what I have conceded is that this place won’t change hands until 50%+1 of the population agrees to it, which was true prior to 1998 (mostly; there was still the risk that Unionism could try and overturn democracy again. This at least makes it explicit that they are doing it)” see post 4 above
50% plus 1 will not guarantee a UI.
Such a small proportion of the population will not bring about any constitutional change because the other 49% will resist such changes (without the threat of violence)and make the country difficult if not impossible to govern.
The ROI government will wait until there is at least a majority of 70% in favour a make sure the remaining opponents to change are guaranteed full civil rights and protection of culture.
There is a long way to go!!!!Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 09:50 PMthe other 49% will resist such changes (without the threat of violence)and make the country difficult if not impossible to govern. -ulsterfan
exactly how wiould this happen ulsterfan???
more foot stamping colonial mindset bollox from the relics.‘are guaranteed full civil rights and protection of culture’
why would your pumpkin marches be banned....no
so whats the problem?tough ulsterfan if, nationalists have to now accept the principle of consent, you relics will as well.
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 09:57 PMIt seems that the SF posters here will talk about anything other than the latest spy scandel.
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 10:12 PMRS
I am not a relic but a forward thinking person of liberal views.
neither government in London or Dublin will move on a 50&#xpl;us 1 simply because they will have a good idea of the outcome of any referendum before it is called and will drag their feet until it suits their purposes.
Nationalists in the North must realise that they alone will not set the agenda for any change.
This will be done by Dublin who will have to say if they want a UI and Westminster if they wish to relinquish authority in the North.
It will never be as simple as 50&#xpl;us 1 because that situation will never arise.Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 10:18 PMulsterfan,
I agree with your idea that the referendum will not take place if there is much doubt about the outcome, in fact it will probably not happen until Irish unity is already an accomplished fact. Just as the Australian decision to become a republic and to break the link with Britain hasn’t formally been taken but is in fact happening anyway as a result of a whole combination of forces.
Without the loyalist mob the unionist parties are no threat to public order and can no longer embarrass Britain on the international stage, the loyalist paramilitaries have been criminalised and any British government reliant on unionism, particularly the DUP at Westminster would instantly lose all credibility.
Reunification is already happening, in a way and at a pace which will reassure the moderates on both sides. A decade ago the idea that the loyalist electorate would desert the UUP because they were too slow to enter a powersharing Executive with Sinn Fein would have seemed ludicrous but it has happened. Don’t think that those changes will stop now or that when it comes it will suit any of the present orthodoxies.
Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 11:31 PMLIB201
You can not have a de facto unity prior to a referendum as this would be unconstitutional and open to challenge in both jurisdictions .
The governments could not take such a risk.
The Assembly will have something to say in the workings of the North/South Ministries.
I am still to be convinced people in the Republic really want unity and at the moment are only paying lip service to the idea.
Attitudes will change over the next 20/30 years to a state which is not recognised by us at present.
We can only speak of what we know of the present generation but can not hold future generations to hostage.
Unity is not a foregone conclusion as no one seems to know what form it would take and consent may never be given by the majority of people in the North in which case the hopes of nationalists will wither on the vine and they will have to find a different role in a changed UK.Posted by on Feb 09, 2008 @ 11:50 PMulsterfan,
The changes will happen faster than we expect now that the dam has broken but the odd thing is that we can agree on so much already. That awful paralysing fear is disappearing on both sides and that will smooth things along.
As for the governments? I think that’s exactly what they have planned for and the people have backed the governments. There is no resistance in the South to that country’s generous gifts towards northern development nor will there be. Call me cynical but that to me that says more about southern goodwill than all the fine words that could be uttered by any politican.
We have all agreed that reunification if it comes will do so peaceably and democratically. Talk of ‘constitution’ as regards any part of the UK is immaterial - it’s whatever the government claims it is since the basic premise is that the Crown acting through Parliament is above the law. Even in the south the Constitution can and will be changed if need be. That’s not meant as some kind of veiled threat but simply as fact. Legal niceties are simply niceties and it’s what the people decide that counts in the end.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2008 @ 12:22 AMReunification is all around us. The economics of the island are becoming more intertwined and dependant on each other and it isn’t causing a ripple. Politics will inevitably do likewise and no one will stop it. You already see many young Protestants going South to study and work even if many pretend it’s not happening. Go to parts of Donegal and it’s like North Down on tour during the summer with holiday homes and cottages. There’s a lot of hypocrisy going on here.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2008 @ 12:32 AMThe Shinners and Provos are heavily infiltrated by British Intelligence, but then so too is every paramilitary grouping and political party in the North.
It would be naive in the extreme for anyone to believe otherwise.
In recent years I know of at least one senior DUP figure who was compromised in Stoneyford, Co Antrim, and one senior SDLP politician in Belfast.
Let’s face it, the Army had plants everywhere. I sincerely hope that some sort of Truth Commission can be established to reveal all, but then I am too cynical to hold my breath.Posted by on Feb 10, 2008 @ 12:46 AMAs Ingram Would say
Ding Ding the little red London bus is moving along nicely, passengers getting on and off board all the time and in no time 2016 will come .
Just like Stevens said, the drawers are full of them… lol
Ding Ding
Posted by on Feb 10, 2008 @ 01:02 AMThanks for that pic. But if you think that falsifies the rest of the article, you aren’t reading widely enough.
You are putting words in my mouth Mick. The person who isn’t ‘reading widely enough’ in this case is the journalist who got his / her facts wrong. Sloppy stuff!
Posted by on Feb 10, 2008 @ 01:30 AMThere’s no sign of the Dingmaster Mr ******, so I for one would be interested in your thoughts on the timing of this. Seems about as spontaneous as a Japanese tea ceremony.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2008 @ 01:32 AMSimple, Susan. Once SF at down in government, his disinformation job and usefulness was over and he was laid off. Presumably with a fairly decent pension.
Posted by on Feb 10, 2008 @ 01:53 AM
