Wednesday, July 09, 2008
Hate Crime on Display?
The front page of today’s Irish News has a photograph of the ‘Union Jack Souvenir Shop’ on Belfast’s Newtownards Road yesterday. For sale in the shop is the Irish Tricolour for £5, obviously for burning at Belfast City Council-sponsored bonfires and other less ‘well-maintained’ gatherings throughout loyalist Belfast and beyond on the 11th Night. But the label attached to the flags by the helpful proprietor kind of sums up just why the ridiculous efforts to brand the 11th/12th as potentially an all inclusive celebration and gathering are doomed to failure: “FENIAN FLAGS TO BURN £5.”
Of course, as I’ve stated before at considerable length, there is nothing wrong with the 11th/12th remaining a celebration primarily/ exclusively celebrated by unionists/ protestants. But there should be no place for wilful displays of incitement to hatred in the form of flag burning, which clearly only reinforces crude sectarian mindsets like those responsible for this sign.
Chris Donnelly @ 09:53 AM
Interested
I’m sure they have the Cross of St Patrick on display which is the flag the lodges in the Republic of Ireland choose to represent them.
That doesn’t make sense, since the St Patrick’s Cross is an all-Ireland flag.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 12:02 PM“Incidentally, I notice that the Mountpottinger Orange Hall has all the flags of the various Orange countries on display (Canada, Australia, Togo, etc.), yet they don’t have the Southern Tricolour despite the fact that there are quite a few lodges in the South.”
Good point Willowfield.....and of all the flags of these nations, the tricolour is probably the only flag, in which a considerable portion of it is Orange, representing the folk in question!
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 12:04 PMI am against flag burning, full stop.
I am curious if those who are offended by the burning of the Irish tricolour (or Arabic flags) are as offended when they see people burning the American flag. Maybe I’m wrong, but for some, I suspect not.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 12:09 PMMaybe the shop owner just doesn’t like the design of the £5 note and he’ll give you a fenian flag if you burn one.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 12:13 PMThe tri-colour also represents Protestants and those of the Reformed Churches that are citizens of the Republic of Ireland!
This kinda insults them too!
But very surprising that an Irish tri-colour is on display at all in such a Unionist novelty shop. Remember all the rumpus Paisley caused years ago about the display of a tri-colour in a window. At least progress has been made I suppose in a quirky Northern Irish way!
Does the shopkeeper wash his hands after handling the tri-colour I wonder. Probably reads a few verses of the bible and asks for forgiveness.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 12:17 PMwillowfield
“That doesn’t make sense, since the St Patrick’s Cross is an all-Ireland flag.”The St Patrick’s Cross indeed does represent the entire island of Ireland, but perhaps the lodges in the RoI choose to be represented by it because they don’t feel included in the Tricolour.
Apparently they’re the Orange section of it - but I don’t recall too much consultation with the Prods of Donegal or Monaghan, let alone of Cork etc when the RoI state was being created. Were they asked if they wanted to be included?
Not entirely sure why you’re seeking to tell people which flag they should choose to represent them. Strikes me that its a matter for the Orangemen of the Republic of Ireland to choose and then possibly we should take a look at the resons why they have made that choice…
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 12:18 PMwillowfield
Perhaps the St Patrick’s flag is there to represent the island of Ireland? As in the Orange Order here being organised on an all-Ireland basis, so the organisation island of Ireland represents a consituent part as do those in England, Scotland, Canada, Ghana etc.
There’s a similar display on My Lady’s Road and I don’t think there’s a Northern Ireland flag in it (could be wrong though, haven’t stopped to look), but there is a St Patricks flag.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 12:21 PMwillowfield
Perhaps the St Patrick’s flag is there to represent the island of Ireland? As in the Orange Order here being organised on an all-Ireland basis, so the organisation island of Ireland represents a consituent part as do those in England, Scotland, Canada, Ghana etc.
There’s a similar display on My Lady’s Road and I don’t think there’s a Northern Ireland flag in it (could be wrong though, haven’t stopped to look), but there is a St Patricks flag.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 12:22 PMRoman Catholic Lies
Who says these Irish flags were to be consumed by fire....... is there any proof.err.. The sign next to the flags state “FENIAN FLAGS TO BURN £5.” Now I’m not a rocket scientist, or Jessica Fletcher, but that’s a pretty big clue.
Unless he’s using modern urban language, in which case, ‘To burn’ would translate as ‘loads of’, so he’s telling his customers that he’s got loads of ‘Fenian flags’. Word homes.From the picture though, I only see a tri-colour on display, so, maybe he has the fenian flags stored out the back, and he’s hedging his bets on in case a UI is around the corner. Here’s what fenian flags look like:
http://flagspot.net/flags/ie_irep.html#fenianI still don’t get why loyalists think that the word fenian is insulting. Maybe it’s their lack of education and imagination. If you really want to insult a republican, don’t call him a mythical legendary hero. Just call him a loyalist. Can’t get much more insulting than that.
Well, it shows that the 11th night is becoming more secular. Saying that Jesus Christ will be offended by Chinese dragons and also burning tri-colours; the 12th is well on it’s way to becoming a tourist attraction. Just like the zoo is. At least there’s no messages scrawled on these about murdered Catholic teenagers. A sign that the PUL community is slowly maturing. Maybe the new unionist academy can teach their fellow Britions how hate is a part of being proud of being British, but somehow, I can’t see liberal Britain approving of this behaviour. Other Britons are not as insecure in their identities as to have to go and prove that their anti-something.
Maybe they are protesting our non-involvement in Iraq!
Tell me, on St. Patricks day, the Irish regiments in the British army normally get handed shamrocks by the queen herself. Do they get handed anything by the queen (or anyone else) on the 12th?
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 12:36 PMApparently they’re the Orange section of it - but I don’t recall too much consultation with the Prods of Donegal or Monaghan, let alone of Cork etc when the RoI state was being created. Were they asked if they wanted to be included?
Interested has a point here. They should be asked now if they want to be included and if they don’t, then they should be allowed to become part of NI, kind of like an off shore island.
Similarly the question should be put to the different constituencies of NI to see if they still want to be included in NI and if they don’t well, they should become part of the republic. And the same question should be asked at each and every subsequent election. I don’t know why we didn’t think of this before. Good man, interested, you’ve hit upon the solution to an age old problem....
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 05:12 PMFrom what i’m told there was no sign saying Fenian Flags to burn.
My information is that a car load of roman catholic republicans stuck the sign on the window with sticky tape and then phoned roman catholic newspapers to start a smear campaign against law abiding protestant workers.
So wise up and come back with proof or don’t come back at allPosted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 05:13 PMFrom what i’m told there was no sign saying Fenian Flags to burn.
My information is that a car load of roman catholic republicans stuck the sign on the window with sticky tape and then phoned roman catholic newspapers to start a smear campaign against law abiding protestant workers.
So wise up and come back with proof or don’t come back at allthat’s great then. Now we know where to go on the Newtonards Road if we’re looking for a tricolour come St Patrick’s Day!
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 05:17 PMRubber room quick....
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 05:20 PM‘I am against flag burning, full stop.
I am curious if those who are offended by the burning of the Irish tricolour (or Arabic flags) are as offended when they see people burning the American flag. Maybe I’m wrong, but for some, I suspect not.
Posted by 6countyprod on Jul 09, 2008 @ 01:09 PM’Second..
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 05:25 PMThey’re Young Ireland flags and not fenian flags anyway.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 05:38 PMINTERESTED
The St Patrick’s Cross indeed does represent the entire island of Ireland, but perhaps the lodges in the RoI choose to be represented by it because they don’t feel included in the Tricolour.
Perhaps, although it would make sense for the St Patrick’s Cross to be used throughout Ireland: the Orange Institution is an all-Ireland body, after all.
Not entirely sure why you’re seeking to tell people which flag they should choose to represent them.
I’m not. I’m merely recording a curious observation.
MIKE
There’s a similar display on My Lady’s Road and I don’t think there’s a Northern Ireland flag in it (could be wrong though, haven’t stopped to look), but there is a St Patricks flag.
I’ll try and remember to have a look the next time I pass. Thanks.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 05:40 PMThere is of course only one answer to the annual of burning Irish Tricolours by loyalists/unionist/orange hooligans - and that’s a counter ritual i.e the burning of an equal number of Union Jacks by Fenians on the 13th. As a gesture to cross community inclusive flag burning Unionist Minister’s could be invited to light the first Union Jack but if they felt unable to then their Coalition partners could help out . After all if the cn share power then they can surely share flag burning ?
Each year each side could invite the other to an all party flag burning - there could be a competition to see which ‘burnings ‘ are best for colour , atmosphere , pyre height etc etc .?
This could catch on as a conflict substitute worldwide . There could even be an international competition . Palestine v Israel , India v Pakistan , Serbia v Croatia , USA v Iraq .
Belfast could host the first International Competition ?Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 06:00 PMWillowfield,
Maye this then?
The Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987
18th March 1987
Provocative conduct in public place or at public meeting or procession
19.—(1) A person who in any public place or at or in relation to any public meeting or public procession—(a)uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour; or
(b)displays anything or does any act; or
(c)being the owner or occupier of any land or premises, causes or permits anything to be displayed or any act to be done thereon,
with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or by which a breach of the peace or public disorder is likely to be occasioned (whether immediately or at any time afterwards) shall be guilty of an offence.(2) A person guilty of an offence under paragraph (1) shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 06:01 PMConcubhar O Liatháin
‘Similarly the question should be put to the different constituencies of NI to see if they still want to be included in NI and if they don’t well, they should become part of the republic. And the same question should be asked at each and every subsequent election. ‘
‘ I don’t know why we didn’t think of this before. ‘
Who did’nt think of this before :) ? I refer you to the ‘Repartition ‘ archives on slugger -there’s about 2 million references or more :)
Glad to see you are coming around to the only ‘fair ‘ solution !
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 06:07 PMWhat’s all the fuss?
The proprietor of this outlet is an Ulster patriot!
All you killjoys should just wise-up. This is only a harmless indulgence in the age old art of political satire.I suppose you people will rant on about the fact that it is labelled ‘Fenian’, incorrectly, or indeed, that the very shop, ‘union jack’, is indeed incorrect, but so what!
You are only jealous that you won’t be there on the 11th night when the flag is raised aloft, on fire, and the intoxicated, baying mob of patriots, in unison, scream “Yeeeoooooowww!!”
A truely wonderous sight!
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 06:20 PMWhat’s all the fuss?
The proprietor of this outlet is an Ulster patriot!
All you killjoys should just wise-up. This is only a harmless indulgence in the age old art of political satire.I suppose you people will rant on about the fact that it is labelled ‘Fenian’, incorrectly, or indeed, that the very shop, ‘union jack’, is indeed incorrect, but so what!
You are only jealous that you won’t be there on the 11th night when the flag is raised aloft, on fire, and the intoxicated, baying mob of patriots, in unison, scream “Yeeeoooooowww!!”
A truely wonderous sight!
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 06:21 PMNiall
Thanks very much for posting the legislation.
I can’t see a successful prosecution being brought, as it would have to be argued successfully that the intent of selling and/or displaying the flag with the sign would be “to provoke a breach of the peace” or the actual sale/display was “likely to occasion” a breach of the peace or public disorder.
I can’t see such an argument being successful.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 07:37 PMWhat else would the tri colour be doing in a union jack shop but for neanderthals to burn on the 11th night. Looks like the shop keeper took care to spell it out in case he was accused of being unpatriotic. I have no problem with anyone burning any flag they like , I do however have a serious problem with bonfires but I;ll not go into that here.
Anyway apart form that does anyone know why the Ulster Scots flags that have sprung up about the place over the last few years are in english?
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 07:42 PMWe all know that Loyalists don’t know the meaning of ‘Fenian’, they take it that it means a huge insult and we have them unwittingly taking a liking to the ‘leader’ of the Fenians in Bushmills...the big Fenian himself- Finn McCool.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 08:02 PMWillowfield,
Unfortunately I don’t know about NI public order law. I’d assumed in my earlier post that it would be the same as England were the relevant legislation is;
The Public Order Act 1986 s.4A states:
1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person intentional harassment, alarm or distress he-
a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.The Public Order Act 1986, Section 5 states:
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he:
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.This offence can be Racially or Religiously aggravated (Crime and Disorder Act 1998, s31(1)(b)).
------------------------------------------------
I apologise for all the legislation.
The point i would make is that in London all you’d need is any member of the public to walk past, call police and say “I saw flag and attached advice, that is clearly insulting” and if they said “I perceive this to be particularly insulting to me due to my race” the CPS would be obliged to prosecute due to the acute sensitivity to anything racial in nature.
Sentencing is also impacted by the racial nature.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 08:03 PM
