Wednesday, July 09, 2008
Hate Crime on Display?
The front page of today’s Irish News has a photograph of the ‘Union Jack Souvenir Shop’ on Belfast’s Newtownards Road yesterday. For sale in the shop is the Irish Tricolour for £5, obviously for burning at Belfast City Council-sponsored bonfires and other less ‘well-maintained’ gatherings throughout loyalist Belfast and beyond on the 11th Night. But the label attached to the flags by the helpful proprietor kind of sums up just why the ridiculous efforts to brand the 11th/12th as potentially an all inclusive celebration and gathering are doomed to failure: “FENIAN FLAGS TO BURN £5.”
Of course, as I’ve stated before at considerable length, there is nothing wrong with the 11th/12th remaining a celebration primarily/ exclusively celebrated by unionists/ protestants. But there should be no place for wilful displays of incitement to hatred in the form of flag burning, which clearly only reinforces crude sectarian mindsets like those responsible for this sign.
Chris Donnelly @ 09:53 AM
We need a superhero to forcibly remove this provocative symbol even if the polis won’t.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:39 AMWhat nonsense, remember the lessons of history. “Protestants” only burn flags, the Roman Catholic Church has a very, very, long history of burning people!
From the Act Of Settelment
“And whereas it hath beene FOUND BY E3XPERIENCE that it is inconsistent with the safety
and welfaire of this protestant kingdome to be governed by a popish prince or by any
King or Queene marrying a papist.”It was “found by experience” not theory, that Babylonian rulers had the curious habit of burning people!
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:40 AMChris
Exactly right.
The OO lost the Public Relations battle a long time ago at the initial Drumcree with the associated murders, rioting and looting. We have of course had a lot of widely televised abysmal behaviour from OO members/supporters in the years since.
The OO “leadership” are unwilling and/or unable to take any action against lodges that annually use banners/bands commemorating “loyalist” terrorists.
We also have the behaviour that you have highlighted here - remember last year’s bonfire where the locals not only burned a tricolour but had one with the name of a local Catholic child that had died tragically died a few weeks before.
I too wouldn’t have a problem if the OO genuinely tried to turn the 11th/12th into less of a hate-filled drunken party. However, their efforts to date have been nothing short of pitiful.
Of course, yet again, they’ll come on moping about how all they want is civil and religious liberty etc etc.
Yet again, the media will be able to show examples of the drunken public disorder at many 11th night bonfires and the same OO lodges turning up with banners/bands commemorating “loyalist terrorists”. I wonder what action the OO “leadership” will take against these lodges/members. My guess (based on the last 20 years - none!)
The OO and it’s supporters may wonder why their PR image is so abysmal and they are widely regarded (particularly in England) as a sectarian anachronism in the 21st Century.
I think it’s pretty obvious to anyone else.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:42 AMThis is an absolute disgrace and an outrage and clearly shows the mentality around the ‘twelth’. If a similar sign or incident had occurred in a nationalist area unionist politiciians would be queueing up to express disgust and demanding its withdrawl. Where are they now?
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:44 AMChris
Presumably your condemnation also extends to those in the Markets who burned Union Flags last August atop a bonfire? Funny, I don’t remember reading any posts from you about that particular incident.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:44 AMYou do have to admire the great protestant work ethic to make money outta anything!
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:45 AMPoor taste to say the least. Not sure if it’s a hate crime, although would be an interesting test. Do we have legislation on hate crimes?
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:45 AMActually, pretty sure it can’t be a hate crime, or even any kind of crime.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:48 AM@ Sam Flanagan.
What has the Roman Catholic Church go to do with this discussion? It is largely insignificant considering a large portion of Nationalists/Republicans/"Fenians" don’t align themselves with any Church and rarely commit any acts or atrocities in the North in the name of their church.
Unnecessary Whataboutery!
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:51 AMThe shop owner should certainly be prosecuted.
Surely the average resident of the Newtownards Road could not be this bigoted!
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:54 AMI have to laugh “FENIAN FLAGS TO BURN £5.” Do they even know what the word fenian means lol. If it happen in any other part of the UK they would be locked up. If this happen for example with a Arabic National flag it would cause outrage but we are so used to the sectarian OO we just turn a blind eye.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:55 AMThis is a fucking disgrace......... the disgusting behaviour of some people never ceases to wretch my stomach.
They come on Slugger and put up sectarian posts which besmirch an entire community.Who says these Irish flags were to be consumed by fire....... is there any proof.
Has Chris Donnelly any proof that they are not part of an all inclusive festival evening on the 11th night for southern Protestants fleeing the south for one evenings peace and safety once a year.
The answer is NO it’s just more crazy nonsense from idle Roman Catholics posters they see something and tell the world they seen something else.
This is why our country has been ruined by these thugs and layabouts
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 10:59 AMAh the power of controversy as an advertising tool… the guy’s cash register musting be ringing well today.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:02 AM“FENIAN FLAGS TO BURN £5.”
While I don’t have a major problem with burning the flag in and of itself, the fact that these guys feel they have to explain why there are tricolours for sale says a lot about the intelligence of some of those involved.
As for whataboutery and “what has this to do with the Catholic church?”; unless I’m mistaken the 11th night bonfires have f**k all to do with the Orange Order either, but nobody’s thought to mention that to Billy following his extensive rant targeting them.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:05 AMR G CUAN
The shop owner should certainly be prosecuted.
On what grounds?
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:12 AMIncidentally, I notice that the Mountpottinger Orange Hall has all the flags of the various Orange countries on display (Canada, Australia, Togo, etc.), yet they don’t have the Southern Tricolour despite the fact that there are quite a few lodges in the South.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:13 AMWillowfield,
I think it probably is a crime as having this displayed in public with the description is behaviour which can cause “alarm, harrassment or distress”.
I’m not saying i think it should be a crime, in fact the right to burn any flag is grand by me.
I can tell you that in England you would definitely be prosecuted for racially aggravated section 4 or 5 of the public order act and possibly incitement to all sorts and you’d likely be convicted in the magistrates so you’d be hoping for a jury trial.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:22 AMIncitement to hate. Niall has given more detail!
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:25 AM@Roman Catholic Lies
“an all inclusive festival evening on the 11th night for southern Protestants fleeing the south for one evenings peace and safety once a year”God that’s hilarious!! Please, do go on…
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:25 AMHappy enough with Jim Rodgers response on the issue.
Don’t really see grounds for a prosecution which I do not believe would happen anyway in the real world even if such grounds could be established.
However, £5.00 seems a wee bit extortionate to me, I mean it appears to be Nylon.
Would burning a nylon flag in a built up area not be controvention of environmental laws?
Maybe but I wouldnt hold my breath ... on second thought maybe we all should for the next few days.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:26 AMNIALL
I think it probably is a crime as having this displayed in public with the description is behaviour which can cause “alarm, harrassment or distress”.
Thanks - can you point me to the relevant NI legislation?
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:30 AMIf the assumption is that the Irish flag symbolises Catholics, I don’t see how burning flags is in itself an incitement to hatred, since people who get a kick out of burning them in this context probably already hate Catholics unaided, and they may be better off burning flags in public than burning people in private.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:38 AMwillowfield
“Incidentally, I notice that the Mountpottinger Orange Hall has all the flags of the various Orange countries on display (Canada, Australia, Togo, etc.), yet they don’t have the Southern Tricolour despite the fact that there are quite a few lodges in the South.”I’m sure they have the Cross of St Patrick on display which is the flag the lodges in the Republic of Ireland choose to represent them.
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:46 AMOn the grounds where the relevant Court is situated?
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:50 AMHate Crime on Display? “FENIAN FLAGS TO BURN £5.”
Surely that’s not fair on the flag, it’s got feelings too you know!
Posted by on Jul 09, 2008 @ 11:59 AM
