Tuesday, December 04, 2007
God save The Queen (from offending Scots and Irish)…
THE British national anthem has been in the news again. Lord Goldsmith suggests it is not inclusive and should perhaps be changed. This - like the talk over a Welsh dragon in the Union flag - is to dissipate Scottish nationalism, although it appears the UK’s Scottish Prime Minister doesn’t mind the slur in the national anthem directed at his fellow countrymen (that bit about crushing rebellious Scots). Meanwhile, in Northern Ireland, ex-rugby player Trevor Ringland has been criticising Irish rugby’s governing body for opposing the playing of God Save the Queen before Irish international matches played in Northern Ireland’s Ravenhill stadium. The former Irish international argues that the rules were changed to prevent the anthem being played in Belfast, and that since northern unionists have always stood for the Republic’s Soldier’s Song in Dublin, there should be a reciprocal goodwill gesture (or at least an agreed single anthem).
Belfast Gonzo @ 01:17 PM
It is not going to far to say this is insulting to the British players and supporters of the Ireland team. Their reluctance to mix sport and politics has been taken advantage of. It left the field clear for some in the IRFU who were clearly less pure in their motives and so we’ve ended up in the embarrassing state of affairs over anthems we have today - in 2007, for Pete’s sake!
The lyrics of the anthems are neither here nor there, to be honest - the point is, the Soldier Song is the anthem of the Republic only and not Northern Ireland. The IRFU presides over a joint Irish and British team, not just a Republic of Ireland one. Either play both anthems and fly both flags or have none at all.
The GFA set out once and for all that British identity in Ireland is a birthright for those who claim it and as valid as Irish identity. The interesting (and worrying) thing about all this for me is that many quite mainstream Irish nationalists appear still to be in denial over this central and rather obvious truth. The rugby anthems issue is important because it reveals the need for us to remember what was agreed and remember to respect each other, not lord it over each other.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 02:29 PMWillowfield, you’re as much in denial now as you were a month ago. Not that that’s too surprising.
Tell you what:If you’re so confident in your argument, how about if by the end of next year, NI born players are ineligible to play for NI, you forward me your bank account details and I’ll lodge 100 pounds sterling in there.As a matter of fact, I’ll make it easy on you. Give it 5 years. Actually, what the hell. Make it 10.
Anyway back on topic - Could NI at least profer a different anthem for when the Irish Team plays there, considering the Scottish and Welsh Rugby Teams have a separate national anthem, as do their football teams? Oh no, wait a second...that would be construed as ‘surrender’ I suppose…
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 02:37 PMWhoops! That sghould be ‘ineligible to play for ROI...obviously. My Apols.
Happy Xmas everyone!!!
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 02:40 PM“Anyway back on topic - Could NI at least profer a different anthem for when the Irish Team plays there, considering the Scottish and Welsh Rugby Teams have a separate national anthem, as do their football teams? Oh no, wait a second...that would be construed as ‘surrender’ I suppose…”
What would you have in mind Juan - something that has no association or mention of British identity I don’t doubt.......Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 03:13 PMsomething that has no association or mention of British identity I don’t doubt
Yes, like ‘Flower of Scotland’ or ‘Land of my Fathers’? Or can you not get up in the morning without your citizenship being referred to in some context first?
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 04:12 PMJuan Kerr
Willowfield, you’re as much in denial now as you were a month ago.
Correct - because I wasn’t at all “in denial” a month ago and continue not to be “in denial”.
Tell you what:If you’re so confident in your argument, how about if by the end of next year, NI born players are ineligible to play for NI, you forward me your bank account details and I’ll lodge 100 pounds sterling in there.As a matter of fact, I’ll make it easy on you. Give it 5 years. Actually, what the hell. Make it 10.
It is not an “argument”, but two statements of fact that (a) FIFA is not bound by the Belfast Agreement; and (b) FIFA makes its own rules. Whether FIFA retains its rules by which NI players are eligible for ROI, or changes them in order to stop NI players being eligible for the ROI, it will not alter either of these facts. So your point is a red herring.
Anyway back on topic - Could NI at least profer a different anthem for when the Irish Team plays there, considering the Scottish and Welsh Rugby Teams have a separate national anthem, as do their football teams?
It would be better if they just used Ireland’s Call and a neutral flag in both jurisdictions. But, failing that, your suggestion is valid.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 04:13 PMThought as much Dec.......
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 04:22 PM“Or can you not get up in the morning without your citizenship being referred to in some context first?” I refer you to most of the nationalist comments on this thread Dec - if you have some sense of irony....
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 04:25 PMthe reason many unionists have a problem with
Amhráin na bhFiann, is not because it is sectarian, or bigoted, because GSTQ outdoes it in that respect. it is because they see the tune and indeed the flag as being IRA symbols of resistance, and as such they are both soiled in the eyes of unionism. so they tar the whole idea of Amhráin na bhFiann and the tricolour with the ‘evil republicans’ brush they so willingy use on many examples of irish identity. what they fail to recognise is the the atrocities carried out by the IRA, were not carried out by the whole irish nation, or elected government. So therefore to view Amhráin na bhFiann and the tricolour as such is being childish. by contrast, those whose oppose the playing of GSTQ and the flying of the union jack, do so with the historical fact that many, many more atrocities were carried out by Britain and its government under the union jack and anthem of GSTQ here in Ireland and elsewhere, and because of this, those who oppose the playing of GSTQ and the flying of the union jack are a little more justified.Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 04:43 PMI refer you to most of the nationalist comments on this thread Dec - if you have some sense of irony....
Democratic
The key word is ‘most’ here, I believe. Since you’re addressing me, it might have been more suitable to concentrate on my comments, especially the one that referred to Ringland making a fair point (despite the muddling of it by incorrect assertions). In previous threads I’ve supported the dropping of the Irish National Anthem at Irish Rugby matches. However why let the facts get in the way of a good MOPE…
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 04:45 PMec - I sorry you think I am moping - from my point of view I merely want equality of representation - or complete impartiality on flags and anthem issues - I am happy to have it for Northern Ireland as I have said - I see absolutely no reason why any All-Ireland team/body cannot do the same. It appears that you share my ideal and I respect you for it - for others majority rule seems to apply when expedient.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 04:57 PM“it is because they see the tune and indeed the flag as being IRA symbols of resistance, and as such they are both soiled in the eyes of unionism. so they tar the whole idea of Amhráin na bhFiann and the tricolour with the ‘evil republicans’ brush they so willingy use on many examples of irish identity. what they fail to recognise is the the atrocities carried out by the IRA, were not carried out by the whole irish nation, or elected government.”
Piss off ---there was nary a squeek when the “gallant volunters” of the repupublic murder gangs were wrapping themselves in then tricolour and promoting A na bf.
The republic (government included ) armed and gave active support to am murder gangs until embarassed by PIRA actions like Enniskillen Tebane Warrington etc
Stick you flag and anthem where the sun don`t shine.
The poor showing of Ulster in terms of Irish team places make this a non issue. If we ever return to the days of 6/7/8 ulster prods on the Irish team then the issue may arise again. In these circumstances I would hope they would rerun the Ravenhill circus of the 50`s but this time the prods should refuse to take the field if A na bf is played
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 04:57 PM“The republic (government included ) armed and gave active support to am murder gangs until embarassed by PIRA actions like Enniskillen Tebane Warrington etc”
Any proof of this, Barnshee? The IRA only ever had a tiny amount of support from people in the Republic, like they only ever had less than a third of nationalists in NI supporting them.
If you’re referring to the arms trial as proof of ROI govt support, both Ministers involved were sacked at the time. Sinn Fein were banned from appearing on national TV and radio by successive governments during the Troubles.
The actions of the IRA were always loathed by the majority of people in the ROI, as election results have consistently shown. Still, nothing like facts to get in the way of unionist propaganda.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 05:16 PM‘Piss off’
‘Stick you flag and anthem where the sun don`t shine.’ - barnshee
is this what passes for counter-argument?
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 05:47 PMHarry,
“Though we’ve had our troubles now and then
Now is the time to make them up again
Sure aren’t we all Irish anyhow
Now is the time to get together now.”Harry you could be right, but Iwould contend that this song referrs to the usual splits that have continually defeated Republicanism and is aimed at those who stood on the Free State side during the civil war.
Posted by on Dec 05, 2007 @ 09:43 PMMaybe so, Cut the Bull, but I did recall my Republican friend’s genuine dislike of the song so I gathered that he knew the specific origins of the song.
It certainly doesn’t read like a traditional Republican song, no reference to fighting for freedom or the enemy, indeed actually no mention whatsoever of fighting at all which is after all the mainstay of most other Republican songs.
Instead of fighting the song consists mainly of appeals to work together, forget the past, look to the future all that sort of stuff, which makes it sound like a Fine Gael manifesto set to music and leads me to believe that the song is indeed the “Free State” anthem that my did hard friend so despised.
Does anyone actually have hard information of the true origins of the song?
Posted by on Dec 06, 2007 @ 06:56 AMThis is pathetic - now Unionists are beign called childish for not having any affinity for the tricolour - whereas Nationalists.....FFS!!!
At the end of the day - ignoring the highly dubious allegations of “childishness” or “Unionist
propaganda” (ha!) as irrelevant anyway - the fact remains - you will not find anyone from a Unionist background in Northern Ireland who will feel in anyway represented by the Soldier’s Song or the tricolour - and yes - you can thank militant republicanism for most of that!Nationalist feelings on this matter are of no bearing....and please don’t patronise with the honourable intentions of the green, white and orange, it changes absolutely nothing.Posted by on Dec 06, 2007 @ 09:24 AMthere are two sides to that coin Democratic, as i have pointed out. you must accept that to many irish both north and south, GSTQ and the union jack engender a far greater unease and even disgust, than Amhráin na bhFiann and the tricolour ever could.
Posted by on Dec 06, 2007 @ 10:28 AMI accept it totally Republicanstones - hence my whole argument....
Posted by on Dec 06, 2007 @ 10:44 AMOf course though it changes nothing - you have your dearly held flag & anthem and I have mine - play both or neither - that is the ultimate reality of the situation for me I’m afraid.
Posted by on Dec 06, 2007 @ 10:50 AM
