Tuesday, December 04, 2007
God save The Queen (from offending Scots and Irish)…
THE British national anthem has been in the news again. Lord Goldsmith suggests it is not inclusive and should perhaps be changed. This - like the talk over a Welsh dragon in the Union flag - is to dissipate Scottish nationalism, although it appears the UK’s Scottish Prime Minister doesn’t mind the slur in the national anthem directed at his fellow countrymen (that bit about crushing rebellious Scots). Meanwhile, in Northern Ireland, ex-rugby player Trevor Ringland has been criticising Irish rugby’s governing body for opposing the playing of God Save the Queen before Irish international matches played in Northern Ireland’s Ravenhill stadium. The former Irish international argues that the rules were changed to prevent the anthem being played in Belfast, and that since northern unionists have always stood for the Republic’s Soldier’s Song in Dublin, there should be a reciprocal goodwill gesture (or at least an agreed single anthem).
Belfast Gonzo @ 01:17 PM
Congal,
Ireland’s National Anthem consists of the AnaB chorus only. Doh!
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:19 PMDemocratic,
we are talking about the anthems of the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland here, not the anthems of unionism and nationalism.Why? because there is no “unionist” or “nationalist” anthem. They simply don’t exist.
It is for the people of Northern Ireland to finally find a “national” anthem that represents all their people, not to try stop us in the Irish Republic playing one that represent ours.
I see no reason for us to tolerate their dysfunctional attitude towards anthems by acting in a dysfunctional manner ourselves.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:23 PMHi BarneyBen,
I’m afraid not Barney. Double DoH! straight back at you.
From Dáil Éireann - Volume 609 - 08 November, 2005
Written Answers. - National Anthem.
“Mr. F. McGrath Mr. F. McGrath
323. Mr. F. McGrath asked the Minister for Finance when the national anthem composed by Peadar Kearney in 1907 will be reclaimed and the correct words (details supplied) will be inserted at all public and State occasions. [32906/05]
Mr. Cowen Mr. Cowen
Mr. Cowen: My Department holds the copyright in the national anthem. The principal reasons for holding the copyright are to ensure that it is freely available, to prescribe that performance fees are not to be charged or collected in respect of the use of the national anthem, and to ensure that it is not used in an inappropriate context and without due deference, such as to render it an object of scorn or derision. I am satisfied that the current version of the national anthem is the appropriate and correct interpretation of the words as composed by Peadar Kearney.”
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:40 PMReader
Clearly you don’t understand the concept of irony, let alone the point I was trying to make Re: Curran criticising Amhran na Bhfiann on the grounds of lyrics it doesn’t contain, yet praising GSTQ and neglecting to mention the uncomplimentary remarks about the Scots in it’s fourth verse.
Specifically, “rebellious Scots”
Should read: Generally, “rebellious Scots”, specifically Jacobites.
CG
Feeble attempt and no apology necessary. That the Irish Government purchased the copyright of A Soldiers Song over 70 years ago is irrelevant. The Irish National Anthem consists solely of the chorus of Amhran na Bhfiann. Let’s just remove my name from the plaque of clueless Unionists and add in your good self. Hold on, you’re already on there.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:46 PMThe Londonderry Air is already used as the anthemn for the Northern Ireland team in the Commonwealth Games. All we need is the right set of lyrics. There are plenty of words in hymns. These are pretty cloying but they might suit the chastened new NI. I think the top “for I’ll be Here” note falls on “humble”.
We would be true, for there are those that trust us.
We would be pure, for there are those that care.
We would be strong, for there is much to suffer.
We would be brave, for there is much to dare.
We would be friend of all, the foe, the friendless.
We would be giving, and forget the gift,
We would be humble, for we know our weakness,
We would look up, and laugh, and love and live.Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:48 PMCongal,
only the chorus constitutes the anthem of the Irish State.Sinne Fianna Fáil
A tá fé gheall ag Éirinn,
buion dár slua
Thar toinn do ráinig chugainn,
Fé mhóid bheith saor.
Sean tír ár sinsir feasta
Ní fhagfar fé’n tiorán ná fé’n tráil
Anocht a théam sa bhearna bhaoil,
Le gean ar Ghaeil chun báis nó saoil
Le guna screach fé lámhach na bpiléar
Seo libh canaídh Amhrán na bhFiann.Or in English:
Soldiers are we
whose lives are pledged to Ireland;
Some have come
from a land beyond the wave.
Sworn to be free,
No more our ancient sire land
Shall shelter the despot or the slave.
Tonight we man the gap of danger
In Erin’s cause, come woe or weal
‘Mid cannons’ roar and rifles peal,
We’ll chant a soldier’s song.Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:51 PMBut George - GSTQ IS the national anthem of NI.
Nationalists do not recognise NI as you know - It doesn’t matter what song they sing - Northern Nationalists will not have any of it - their anthem is the S.S. - which they say is an All-Ireland anthem - not saying I agree - but your argument is not with me it seems.....I think in your haste to have a dig you have tripped yourself up. My point remains why should Northern Nationalists be represented twice in anthem issues when they are perfectly happy with what you call the “Irish Republic” one. That only leaves the rest of us - and our anthem is GSTQ…Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:53 PMConga,
Not sure what your copywright fetish proves, other than the Irish Government hold it. Please read the last line below, slowly and carefully....doh doh!
From today’s Department Of Foreign Affairs website:
The National Anthem, called The Soldier’s Song was written in 1907 by Peadar Kearney, an uncle of Brendan Behan. It was first published in the newspaper, Irish Freedom in 1912, but was not widely known until it was sung at the GPO during the Easter Rising of 1916. The chorus was formally adopted as the National Anthem in 1926.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:54 PMAll national anthems are a bit of bunk as far as I’m concerned.
But, it is the height of rudeness not to respect one when it is being played. In the case of sporting events you’re just respecting the opposing side, not anything more or less.
As it stands, N.I. continues to be a part of the United Kingdom, and I suspect fewer nationalists would object to GSTQ being played that a lot of people assume.Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:57 PMFrom the Horse’s mouth.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:58 PMAs it stands, N.I. continues to be a part of the United Kingdom, and I suspect fewer nationalists would object to GSTQ being played that a lot of people assume.
Joe
It’s not really about us (for once :]). I really can’t foresee 13/14 Irishmen standing to attention to ‘their anthem’ at Ravenhill as GSTQ is played. That being said, the Irish National Anthem should not be played at Lansdowne either ( and don’t start me on that other dirge) and I hope the practice is stopped.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:03 PMI know it’s difficult, Dec, but have to agree that it should be both or neither. Can’t have the cake and eat it yadda yadda..
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:05 PMDemocratic,
“My point remains why should Northern Nationalists be represented twice in anthem issues when they are perfectly happy with what you call the “Irish Republic” one. That only leaves the rest of us - and our anthem is GSTQ…”Since when do you speak for those in Northern Ireland who aren’t unionist?
Why should unionists be represented by an anthem that only represents them and not all the people of Northern Ireland?
By that logic My Own Lovely Lee needs a rendition too.
There are two jurisdictions (not cultures) so at most we need two anthems.
What is so hard about finding an agreed anthem and flag for the people that live within the NI border?It is for the people of Northern Ireland to bring along an agreed anthem for Northern Ireland (their jurisdiction) not for us to get rid of ours.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:09 PMI quite like the Soldier’s Song and if it’s kept to the chorus and a present tense sporting context it’s entirely appropriate for a current “mixed” Irish team about to face the All Blacks (manning the gap of danger etc..); but that said I cannot be doing with the rhyming of “Ireland” with “Sire Land”.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:12 PMTo me it says a lot about Unionist identity when they insists GSTQ is thier anthem.I guess it proves that there is no sush thing really as an Northern Irish/Ulster idnetity.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:13 PMNah George - your shifting the goalposts mate - and you know it too. Tell you what - I for one am amenable to an agreed NI anthem regardless of the fact it means me hiding my identiy under a bushel (an idea that caused you so much trouble it seems)- I’ll make a deal with you - you ask a cross section of NI nationalists about an suitable anthem for NI - the vast majority will tell you only an agreed All-Ireland one or the Soldiers’ Song will do. But since you think I am speaking for them out of place ask them yourself....
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:19 PMHi Dec/George/Barney,
Even between yourselves you can’t agree. Dec states…
“The Irish National Anthem consists solely of the chorus of Amhran na Bhfiann”
George seems to think it’s the chorus whether in English or Gaelic. Although somewhat ambiguously.
And Barney thinks that based on the Foreign Affairs website…
“The National Anthem, called The Soldier’s Song was written in 1907 by Peadar Kearney...The chorus was formally adopted as the National Anthem in 1926.”
So that’s the English version then.
So based on what you’ve said the National Anthem is either the chorus of the SS, the chorus of AnaB or both! Fekking brilliant! And George is the guy who reckons NI has to “agree” on a National Anthem to have it played at the Ireland rugby games. Seems we’ll have to scrap them all then as 3 nationalists can’t agree on their anthem never mind the whole of the RoI!
I have shown you transcripts of the debates where the National Anthem is discussed. Only the SS is mentioned. Not AnaB. Show me where those decisions were overturned. It’s easy enough done as it’s all online.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:19 PMI really can’t foresee 13/14 Irishmen standing to attention to ‘their anthem’ at Ravenhill as GSTQ is played.....
Posted by Dec on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:03 PM
Are you saying that the 1 or perhaps 2 others arent ‘Irishmen’?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 05:43 PMBut George - GSTQ IS the national anthem of NI.
Nationalists do not recognise NI as you know - It doesn’t matter what song they sing - Northern Nationalists will not have any of it - their anthem is the S.S. - which they say is an All-Ireland anthem - not saying I agree - but your argument is not with me it seems.....I think in your haste to have a dig you have tripped yourself up. My point remains why should Northern Nationalists be represented twice in anthem issues when they are perfectly happy with what you call the “Irish Republic” one. That only leaves the rest of us - and our anthem is GSTQ…Posted by Democratic on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:53 PM
Have you conducted a study of northern nationalists on this issue. Many have been happy to sign Danny Boy with there protestant neighbours down the years at boxing events. I would have no problem hearing Danny Boy or the green fields of France. You obviously know the my mindset as a northern nationalist better than me though. Any more of my demands you wish to fill me in on Democrat?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 06:27 PM... so we’re agreed then! The Republic’s anthem (be it a Soldier’s Song or Amhrán na bhFiann) doesn’t suggest the slaying of Saxons, and God Save the Queen (or King as the case may be) doesn’t encourage the crushing of rebellious Scots. Happy days indeed.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 06:41 PMOh for goodness sake! Nonsense, the lot of it!
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 06:47 PMDear God things must be slow over there when we are back on this one AGAIN surely we have enough of it during the Workld Cup.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 06:56 PMIn ROI, play an anthem agreeable to the vast majority of the people of ROI.
In NI, play an anthem agreeable to the vast majority of the people of NI.Whatever that is, I couldn’t give a fuck. As long as it’s not the anthem of the UK, which is not represented at the match.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 07:06 PM“Have you conducted a study of northern nationalists on this issue. Many have been happy to sign Danny Boy with there protestant neighbours down the years at boxing events. I would have no problem hearing Danny Boy or the green fields of France. You obviously know the my mindset as a northern nationalist better than me though. Any more of my demands you wish to fill me in on Democrat?”
Yeah I’m fine with that too pal - where NI is concerned - you are taking me up wrong - I’ll sing Danny Boy with you anytime to represent NI.
The problem arises when an all-Ireland angle is brought up that some people think it is acceptable for Nationalists to be represented twice - once by the Soldiers’ Song and again in a neutral NI specific anthem. My suspicious mind tells me that all this lateral thinking about juristictions and whatever is just a callous way of removing any representation of my British identity from the equation. The point of one team is to represent all the peoples’ identities equally - not fully one side and a heavily watered down version for the other. Sorry if I refuse to look at it the way you want me to - but that is the ultimate reality of the situation.
As for speaking for Nationalists - since it is offending I won’t do it again - I still would be interested to see how right I am though if their was a survey. I may even be tempted to wager.Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 07:43 PM“To me it says a lot about Unionist identity when they insists GSTQ is thier anthem.I guess it proves that there is no sush thing really as an Northern Irish/Ulster idnetity.”
Yeah it says they are Unionist - that’s all!
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 07:53 PM
