Tuesday, December 04, 2007
God save The Queen (from offending Scots and Irish)…
THE British national anthem has been in the news again. Lord Goldsmith suggests it is not inclusive and should perhaps be changed. This - like the talk over a Welsh dragon in the Union flag - is to dissipate Scottish nationalism, although it appears the UK’s Scottish Prime Minister doesn’t mind the slur in the national anthem directed at his fellow countrymen (that bit about crushing rebellious Scots). Meanwhile, in Northern Ireland, ex-rugby player Trevor Ringland has been criticising Irish rugby’s governing body for opposing the playing of God Save the Queen before Irish international matches played in Northern Ireland’s Ravenhill stadium. The former Irish international argues that the rules were changed to prevent the anthem being played in Belfast, and that since northern unionists have always stood for the Republic’s Soldier’s Song in Dublin, there should be a reciprocal goodwill gesture (or at least an agreed single anthem).
Belfast Gonzo @ 01:17 PM
Sticking a dragon in the middle of it would throw out the symmetry of the existing design.
Besides, the rest of the flag is based on saints. Does St David have a representative flag?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:04 PMhttp://pvcbanners.co.uk/world-flags/allflags/gb-w-std.html
Perhaps incorporate the black from St David’s flag. A black stripe could also represent a mourning for the eventual break up.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:09 PMWake up and smell the coffee. The union is a dead duck. People in the UK from a unionist persuasion are only beginning to cop on to this now but its too late. Ye have had more time than enough in order to be inclusive, democratic and representative of all the peoples who live under that jurisdiction. You had your chance to do this in Ireland’s north-east but failed miserably and only have yourselves to blame for the advent of the IRA and the subsequent rise in popularity and prominence of Irish Republicanism-Nationalism in Ireland as a whole. Ye are the architects of your own demise.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:15 PMMy understanding was the anti-Scots verse hasn’t been used since C18th.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:17 PM“They contend that for years they have had to come down to Dublin to watch Ireland play and be respectful to the “racist and highly offensive” Amhran na bhFiann, which they say lauds the slaying of Saxons.” quote from Irish Indo article.
Always admired Ringland as both a rugby player and as a person - definately thought he was a lot better than “racist and highly offensive” Soldiers Song type comments (from Indo article).
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:22 PMWho really cares about which anthem the English adopt?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:24 PMThe word racist gets bandied about a bit too much these days. How can I be racist against a white christian as I too am one?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:33 PM“Does St David have a representative flag?” Did St. Patrick? In any case, yes, St. David has a flag and, even more than “Patrick’s”, it too is a makey-upey to ape St. George.
Back onto topic, Goldsmith is barking up the wrong tree on this one. The verse referring to crushing rebellious Scots was an anti-Jacobite add-on that appeared briefly in the mid-18th century. It never made it into the ‘final cut’.
Ringland, on the other hand, has a point. Something has to be done about this in the interest of “parity”. Either scrap Amhrán na bhFiann or play God Save the Queen - or Londonderry Air. Southern supporters (or branches) have to grow up on this one. The reality is that neither Amhrán na bhFiann nor God Save the Queen represent the team playing the game.
Any chance of an (all) Ireland anthem - if it’s agreed that Ireland’s Call is just too crap to consider - and (for the first time in history) a flag?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:36 PMAt least GSTQ doesn’t label all the Scots to be crushed, just the quarrelsome ones like those murdering, treasonous Jacobites.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:46 PMWhen the Irish team play outside the Republic of Ireland only Ireland’s Call is used as .... .
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:53 PMThe Welsh could be using their heads here put a dragon in the middle of the union flag and when it breaths hopefully it’ll set it on fire.Is that the plan?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 02:57 PM”Wake up and smell the coffee. The union is a dead duck. People in the UK from a unionist persuasion are only beginning to cop on to this now but its too late. Ye have had more time than enough in order to be inclusive, democratic and representative of all the peoples who live under that jurisdiction. You had your chance to do this in Ireland’s north-east but failed miserably and only have yourselves to blame for the advent of the IRA and the subsequent rise in popularity and prominence of Irish Republicanism-Nationalism in Ireland as a whole. Ye are the architects of your own demise.”
Wise up Quagmire. The only reason there was a rise in popularity in Irish Republicanism-Nationalism was due to intimidation of those who were against it, both in the formation of the Irish republic and later in 1960’s N.Ireland. The Irish Republicanism-Nationalism movement preyed on the vulnerability of it’s own people at the outset, when all the men were off fighting in Europe for everyones freedom. Scavengers is all they are! Even when you managed to overpower those brave Irish men who stayed in Ireland, you didn’t receive the welcome you thought you would get on Dublin city. You so called liberators were pelted with rotten vegetables from your own Irish people in Dublin. It would take the Irish civil war and endless intimidation against those who were against the Irish Republicanism-Nationalism movement to finally bring about some form of government, although never democratic, more a dictatorship set-up to ethnically cleanse Protestantism.
you must be so proud!
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:00 PMGonzo puts out a thread about flags AND anthems.
Slugger responses getting slack, I wonder?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:02 PMHomeland - Not all Saxons - only the “tyrannical” ones. In any case, references to “Sons of the Gael” and “Men of the Pale” fighting together seems to have run right over your head. At least, you’ll be happy to know that the Irish-language version (invariably the version sung) makes no reference to the slaying of Saxons, but does make sure that Gaels and “Galls” are remain where they are, happily fighting side-by-side for each other’s mutual freedom.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:11 PMMaybe with a couple of changes to an old republican song there may be a new sporting anthem which suits every body in the rugby fraternity as there is an acceptance that there is and most probably always will be an all ireland team.
ON THE ONE ROAD
Chorus:
We’re on the one road sharin’ the one load
We’re on the road to God knows where
We’re on the one road it may be the wrong road
But we’re together now who cares
North men south men comrades all
Dublin, Belfast, Cork and Donegal
We’re one road singing along, singing our Nations Song
Though we’ve had our troubles now and then
Now is the time to make them up again
Sure aren’t we all Irish anyhow
Now is the time to get together now
Chorus
Tinker, tailor, every mother son
Butcher, baker standing side by side we’re Irelands number one
Rich man, poor man, every man in line
All together just like “Auld Lang Syne”
Chorus
Night is darkest just before the dawn
From sporting achievement Ireland is reborn
Come on all ye untied Irish men
Now is the time to make a sporting nation once again
ChorusPosted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:12 PMAlready got a wonderful flag of our own thanks.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:13 PMAdmire your efforts there, Cut the Bull, but I think its origins and a certain group of football fans’ bastardisation of it pretty much ruin its chances.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:22 PMIreland’s National Anthem consists of the AnB chorus only. So, inconveniently enough, the Saxon foe escapes without a mention. You’d think Trevor would have looked up the words before getting on his high horse. Maybe he’s one of those fellows who comes from beyond the waves.
Chorus:
Soldiers are we
whose lives are pledged to Ireland;
Some have come
from a land beyond the wave.
Sworn to be free,
No more our ancient sire land
Shall shelter the despot or the slave.
Tonight we man the gap of danger
In Erin’s cause, come woe or weal
‘Mid cannons’ roar and rifles peal,
We’ll chant a soldier’s song.Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:28 PM‘Alternative Ulster’ by Stiff Little Fingers should of course be the played at Windsor and Ravenhill.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:42 PMBit disappointed in Ringland swallowing the Saxon foe guff.
As for giving up on our anthem, just because the good folk of Northern Ireland seem to have a serious mutual identity problem doesn’t mean the rest of us have to hide ours under a bushel.
Rather than denying us our cultural reality, let those in Northern Ireland find an inclusive anthem and flag that represents all their citizens and we’ll play that too. They’ve already had 85 years, how much more time do they need.
Or is Trevor still wheeling out the Northern Ireland is “Simply British” line in the vain hope that we will eventually swallow it.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:44 PMWhilst Ringland makes a fair point over parity, he doesn’t help his case by joining forces with the terminally ill-informed Lord Laird. Let’s clarify:
The National Anthem and Amhran na Bhfiann aren’t one and the same. The National anthem consists of only the chorus of Amhran na Bhfiann and is sung in Irish. The only reference to ‘saxons’ occurs in the (translated) 3rd Verse of Amhran na Bhfiann and I seriously doubt there’s anyone left on the planet who has ever heard this verse sung in public. In short, they’ve got the wrong song.
Ed Curran suffered from a similar confusion earlier in the year when he wrote this piece, complaining about hearing lyrics he hadn’t actually heard, though the more astute amongst you will note he doesn’t appear to highlight the unflattering bit about the Scottish* in his beloved GTSQ.
* Though as a previous poster pointed out it wasn’t aimed at all Scots, just the nasty papist-loving kind.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:48 PMFree Agent,
perhaps Gotta Gettaway instead?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 03:50 PM“As for giving up on our anthem, just because the good folk of Northern Ireland seem to have a serious mutual identity problem doesn’t mean the rest of us have to hide ours under a bushel.
Rather than denying us our cultural reality, let those in Northern Ireland find an inclusive anthem and flag that represents all their citizens and we’ll play that too”
Northern nationalists are already represented by the Soldiers’ Song George - they tell us this so often - why would they be represented twice? And expanding then why should Northern Unionists hide their identity under a bushel by not having GSTQ?
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:04 PMDec: Though as a previous poster pointed out it wasn’t aimed at all Scots, just the nasty papist-loving kind.
Specifically, “rebellious Scots”
And, as another poster pointed out, that verse isn’t in the National Anthem anyway.
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:10 PMHi Dec,
“The National Anthem and Amhran na Bhfiann aren’t one and the same. The National anthem consists of only the chorus of Amhran na Bhfiann and is sung in Irish. The only reference to ‘saxons’ occurs in the (translated) 3rd Verse of Amhran na Bhfiann and I seriously doubt there’s anyone left on the planet who has ever heard this verse sung in public. In short, they’ve got the wrong song.”
I’m afraid it’s you who’s wrong on this one…
From the debate on the 1934 Appropriation Act, then Minister of Finance, McEntee:
“That a sum not exceeding £1,200 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1934, for the Acquisition by the State of Copyright in the National Anthem.
This Estimate is introduced to give effect to an agreed settlement to copyright proceedings initiated in respect to the performance in theatres and elsewhere of the National Anthem, that is to say, the “Soldier’s Song.” As some Deputies may not be aware of the position in regard to the Anthem, I may say that the music of the “Soldier’s Song” was informally adopted by the then Government as the National Anthem for use within the State in May, 1924. On 12th July, 1926, the Executive Council formally ruled that the “Soldier’s Song” should be used as the National Anthem of An Saorstát for all purposes at home and abroad.”Seems the terminally ill-informed Lord Laird is actually better informed than yourself. Perhaps you owe Laird, Curran and Ringland an apology…
Posted by on Dec 04, 2007 @ 04:12 PM
