Saturday, June 16, 2007
From Ikea to Limavady
SDLP Councillor Gerry Mullan is objecting to the display of a Union flag during a World War I commemoration event in Limavady. The solitary Union flag will not be flown on council property, on a temporary flag poll for approximately 30 minutes. However, this is too much for Cllr Mullan who has attacked it as a “flag-waving exercise”.
Fair Deal @ 10:59 AM
@fella
“commemorations are about the reflection on the loss of life in the horror of war,not the flying of flags.if nationalists protest that it’s a flag waving exercise then its up to unionists to be the bigger people and prove its not through the very simple outreach of flying the other cloth.if they can’t bring themselves to also flying the dreaded “trickler”, then they shouldn’t be flying anything.”
How many union jacks were flying at the last Belfast St Patricks day parade? Maybe the best solution is to just let WWI and WWII commemorations belong to unionists and let them fly the flag the soldiers fought under.
I don’t particularly want to force nationalists not to fly tricolours on St Patricks day, but of course if they do I’ll have no part of any such parade because it excludes me, but they still have that right. WWI is part of my Britishness, and the Britishness of my children and grandchildren and great grandchildren whether there ever is a united Ireland and my people become stateless like the Kurds or not.
If I don’t have the right to force the St Patrick’s day parade in Belfast from flying tricolours then why do nationalists feel the right to prevent the flying of the union flag at a British army commemoration?
Posted by on Jun 17, 2007 @ 02:16 PMSometimes there are limits as to what unionists will give up and I think one of those is flying the flag of the UK at a commemoration for British and Irish soldiers who died fighting for that very flag.
IMHO it would dishonour those who fought for it if it was not displayed.
If Nationialists/Republicans cannot see that asking for it to be removed is like asking Repuiblicans not to fly the Tricolour at Republican commemorations, then we have little hope in this country.
Posted by on Jun 17, 2007 @ 04:16 PMFrustrated Democrat,
If the aim is ‘cross-community’ then it must include the symbols of both communities, or failing that of neither. If it is to be an exclusively unionist affair then that’s a different story altogether.
Posted by on Jun 17, 2007 @ 04:38 PM“How many union jacks were flying at the last Belfast St Patricks day parade? Maybe the best solution is to just let WWI and WWII commemorations belong to unionists and let them fly the flag the soldiers fought under.”
Its a pretty bad parallel,war dead commemoration and Patron Saint’s Day celebration,they’re two very different occasions with very different realities.Though your response reveals the attitude which is being attacked (… albeit pooorly by SDLP)in that you say the Unionists should “just be allowed this one”, showing the mentality of exclusivity,which is fundamentally wrong,if not outwardly aggravating. My grandfather spent 3 years at war,does that make him a Unionist......bullsh*t it does,he was marching on Bloody Sunday with the rest of my family.If you asked him would he mind a tricolour being flown aswell as a solution not to not offend half of the community he would have said it didn’t matter.Do ye know why?Because he didn’t need to swing a flag that was going to isolate his neighbors to remember the fallen,because these things have a habit of not needing any reminders.Back to my original point if Unionists are to prove this is a truly reflective occasion and NOT a “flag-waving exercise”,then they need to show a bit of diplomacy towards flags either reaching out to the other community by flying both,or in the event that they can’t help but isolate the other community fly none.
Posted by on Jun 17, 2007 @ 06:42 PM>>why do nationalists feel the right to prevent the flying of the union flag at a British army commemoration?<<
It is a commemoration for the fallen of WW1 not a British army one. I’m sure will spare a thought for the dead of all nations, Commonwealth and other allies, German, Turk and their allies.
Young Fella
Well said! I have thoughts along similar lines to you as my relations fought in Britain’s wars also. Indeed cousins of mine attend Anzac day services in Australia to remember their own father and our mutual grandfather. I continue to find it strange that so many on this thread fail to see the point and are looking for evidence of an attack where there is none.
Posted by on Jun 17, 2007 @ 07:16 PMYoung fela and Prince Eoghan,
I know I am to an extent breaking unionist ranks on this one and as I have said before I do not know the ins and outs of this commeration.
Personally I would not have if minded if both flags were there if this is a cross community event (for that matter we could have had the French tricolour and the German flag, either current or old Imperial). The problem as far as I see it is the foolish headline grabbing manner in which one SDLP councillor has raised it. Why could he not have raised it quietly and confidentially. Now as I have said if the there is no union flag or if there are both flags this will be seen as a unionist defeat. This makes me really sad.
I know the inherent logical arguments put forward by unionist commentators against the tricolour and I agree with them but on this one and this alone I would not mind. Now, however, as this debate has shown Pandora’s box has been opened to all our discredits and to the lesser honouring of all our ancestors, relatives etc. who fought in that awful war.
I am sorry I know I sound like the Alliance party now, I will go and try to recover.
Posted by on Jun 17, 2007 @ 09:16 PMI find it to be quite ironic that the SDLP have chosen to finally finish themselves off, in terms of electability, on the very same issue that saw the immediate demise of moderate Nationalism, i.e. John Redmond and the Home Rule Party, 90-odd years ago when they sent IVF soldiers to the Great War on the back of a ‘promise’ of Irish Home Rule from the British government.
Under Mark Durkan’s leadership, they seem to have developed a profound ability to completely offend the Unionist community on one hand, whilst appearing completely absurd to Nationalists on the other, through their desperation to cling to Sinn Fein’s coat-tails by trying to be ‘greener’ than them.
John Hume must despair.
Frankly, the only thing that I’ve found to be more pathetic than the puerile shenanigans of SF and the DUP over the course of the past decade is the laughably feeble responses of the UUP and the SDLP in the aftermath of them being knocked off their perches as top-dogs of Unionism and Nationalism respectively.
What is so repugnant about having the Union Jack flying at a British Legion ceremony to honour soldiers who fought under that very same flag all those years ago?
As for some people on this thread trying to suggest that the Tricolour should be flown alongside the Union Jack at such a ceremony - don’t make me laugh! For starters it would be illogical - Ireland wasn’t partitioned until 1922 and even at that the Tricolour wasn’t it’s official flag until the Free State became a Republic 20 odd years later.
Posted by on Jun 17, 2007 @ 09:33 PM“As for some people on this thread trying to suggest that the Tricolour should be flown alongside the Union Jack at such a ceremony - don’t make me laugh! For starters it would be illogical - Ireland wasn’t partitioned until 1922 and even at that the Tricolour wasn’t it’s official flag until the Free State became a Republic 20 odd years later.”
Why do we need any flags at a cross-community quasi-religious ceremony? Why the desire to have the butcher’s apron shown on every possible occasion, particulary when it is supposed to be a cross-community event.
Posted by on Jun 17, 2007 @ 10:28 PM“What is so repugnant about having the Union Jack flying at a British Legion ceremony to honour soldiers who fought under that very same flag all those years ago?”
Nothing. But it isn’t cross community.
“As for some people on this thread trying to suggest that the Tricolour should be flown alongside the Union Jack at such a ceremony - don’t make me laugh! For starters it would be illogical - Ireland wasn’t partitioned until 1922 and even at that the Tricolour wasn’t it’s official flag until the Free State became a Republic 20 odd years later.”
Twisted logic. It wasn’t the Union Jack the men of the IVF were fighting for. Moreover, it matters less what the flags were at the time than what the flags are now. If the Republic was honouring WWI dead, then you’d find the tricolour flying at that commemoration. If you are serious about being “cross community”, then it represents a lot of people in the six counties.
But I’d prefer no flags. As a republican, I don’t feel I could join in these WWI commemorations not because I have no respect for the soldiers, quite the opposite, but because I have no respect for the governments and attitudes that sent them there. As it is, it just another vehicle to turn their deaths into “Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori”.
Posted by on Jun 17, 2007 @ 11:53 PMLike i said before;
1)poor posturing by the SDLP...again
2)both flags or none
Go recover from what Turgon?What you’ve just said shows some flexibility and understanding,instead of an identity simply based on negation.That gets my respect,and actually makes me want to listen to Unionists.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:12 AM*For starters it would be illogical - Ireland wasn’t partitioned until 1922 and even at that the Tricolour wasn’t it’s official flag until the Free State became a Republic 20 odd years later.*
By that logic any commemoration of the US war dead of the Second World War would have to use the old 48 star US flag, Canadians would have to use the old Red Ensign, any commemoration of Russian (or Ukrainian, or Belorussian, or Kazakh, or Georgian etc) war dead could only use the Hammer and Sickle, and woe betide any German veterans who wanted to honour their fallen comrades in North Africa for example.
So who is being illogical?
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:23 AMDO,
I sense that you are surprised by the SDLP ‘outgreening’ Sinn FĂ©in.
I’ll try and explain why you shouldn’t be.
SF have for years advanced republicanism. This is a very respectable political creed, much favoured by modern, democratic nations.
However, Irish republicanism, as practised by the IRA, was in fact extreme Irish nationalism. During the troubles, the SDLP was, in fact, more republican, in it’s practice and policy.However, the IRA have, for all intents and purposes, gone away.
SF are realising what theoretical republicanism actually means, and the SDLP are realising what the phrase “mainly nationalist” actually means.
We are slowly heading towards a green SDLP and a green, white and orange Sinn FĂ©in.
In the Unionist community, something quite similar is happening. The DUP, long regarded as extreme unionists are showing their true faces as Ulster Nationalists. And the ‘soft’ UUP are in fact the ‘real’ UK Unionists.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:47 AMWhy do we need any flags at a cross-community quasi-religious ceremony?
Because that’s the point of war, you fight for the interests of a particular country, under the flag of that country.
Why the desire to have the butcher’s apron shown on every possible occasion, particulary when it is supposed to be a cross-community event.
This has very little to do with cross-community relations. Why must every public event be scrutinised with respect to the ‘ideals’ of political correctness? I would have thought that this issue is black and white, and so would most people, before the SDLP decided to make a political hot potato out of it. The soldiers involved fought under the Union flag, they fought and died for the UK, that is a fact and any attempts in historical revision to remove the flag of that nation from any event that commemorates the tragic loss endured by that nation (of which the whole of Ireland was a part of at the time) won’t change the truth.
If I was a Republican I wouldn’t want my flag being associated with the Great War, which was essentially an enormous and catastrophically stupid waste of life over the fate of a few fields in France and Belgium. Why not just continue to associate it with more recent catastrophically stupid acts of life-wasting rather than deciding to add to the list.
But I’d prefer no flags. As a republican, I don’t feel I could join in these WWI commemorations not because I have no respect for the soldiers, quite the opposite, but because I have no respect for the governments and attitudes that sent them there.
If you don’t feel like joining in on the whole commemoration thing then why get bothered about what flags are flown or not flown at that event?
It wasn’t the Union Jack the men of the IVF were fighting for.
Really? I find that quite a difficult one to swallow. So what exactly were they doing in Ypres or the Somme? You may have some noble notions that all they thought about when they were trying to kill Germans in the trenches all those years ago was some halycon vision of a free Ireland far off in the distant future. However, I would wager a lot that when they were trying to kill the enemy, or save the lives of their comrades, they were thinking about doing just that i.e. killing Germans or saving the lives of their comrades, i.e. fighting for the interests of the fat field marshalls standing 3 miles or so behind them, i.e. fighting for the UK.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 06:59 AMThe likes of Diluted Orange, IJP etc are may be missing the point about the key issue here. They unable to see beyond the petty point scoring of having a pop at the SDLP.
The SDLP man is right to raise the question of parity regarding cross-community projects (and I’m not saying that as an SDLP voter!)
The key issue here is whether or not this really is a truly “cross-community” project. If it is put forward as such then it presuposses certain things about the event and I think it is quite astute of the SDLP man to highlight this issue. Of course, this would equally apply if the Republican community were to organise a commemoration to the Hunger Strikers, proposing it as a cross-community event. It begs the question, “What makes an event a ‘cross-community event’?”
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 07:23 AMHarry Flashman
You raise interesting points about the evolution of flags but they’re not particularly valid in this instance. We’re talking about a commemoration event in Northern Ireland not the Republic.
For me this whole debate stems from the inability of Gerry Mullan and several others on this thread to associate this event with an appropriate context. We in Northern Ireland are so used to having flags of one sort or the other being thrust into our faces as acts of defiance or aggression that on the occasions where flags are flown as acts of remembrance in a more sombre, non-confrontational and meaningful fashion than what we are used to, we seek, even expect to be offended.
Acts of remembrance aren’t ‘flag-waving’ exercises but a reflection of the acts that were perpetrated and the lives that were lost under the name of that flag.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 07:39 AM“This is a straightforward choice. Do unionists want a cross-community ceremony or do they wish to continue with the sort of exclusive behaviour which has destryed them in the past?”
And so the lie repeats itself ad infinitum.Noone was ever excluded from any commemoration- they excluded themselves because of....no, not principle...just bad manners. If the commemorations were for Prods only, and the message was “themmuns didn’t count” there’d be a point. Or if this obscure councillor was perhaps a wellknown peacnik with an agenda against the military. But he’s not, and the attitude of the President of Ireland (and British subject) Mary McAleese is all the answer needed to this type of humbug. Did she gurn about the Union Flag being on display as Messine Peace Park? Did she throw her rattle out of the pram at Islandbridge when the Brits sent a military equerry in uniform? No!!! She had manners!!
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 08:16 AM“If you don’t feel like joining in on the whole commemoration thing then why get bothered about what flags are flown or not flown at that event?”
Because if there was much less officialdom, I might be able to join in.
“Really? I find that quite a difficult one to swallow. So what exactly were they doing in Ypres or the Somme? You may have some noble notions that all they thought about when they were trying to kill Germans in the trenches all those years ago was some halycon vision of a free Ireland far off in the distant future. However, I would wager a lot that when they were trying to kill the enemy, or save the lives of their comrades, they were thinking about doing just that i.e. killing Germans or saving the lives of their comrades, i.e. fighting for the interests of the fat field marshalls standing 3 miles or so behind them, i.e. fighting for the UK.”
You are mixing two different things up. Why they went to war and what they did when they were there. A lot went to war because they were told that it would secure Home Rule for Ireland. A lot went because they had sympathy for Belgium as another small nation. Once they got there they helped their comrades and followed orders. There is nothing you are saying that contradicts me.
And as, has been pointed out, modern flags are typically used when representing all countries. A bit of generosity in any case and you’d get a lot more people involved. Isn’t that better than cheap political point scoring?
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 08:23 AM“Did she throw her rattle out of the pram at Islandbridge when the Brits sent a military equerry in uniform? No!!! She had manners!!”
Manners is also ensuring your guest feel comfortable, darth. By the same logic you are using, a tricolour should be no bother.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 08:25 AM>Now as I have said if the there is no union flag
>or if there are both flags this will be seen as
>a unionist defeat.I know this is not quite on-topic, but this kind of attitude is pathetically immature. “I would have done it, but I won’t do it now everyone knows you asked me to do it.”
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 08:40 AMThings like this make me sad. In this day and age we’re supposed to have evolved. Yet in this very thread I see many people acting like spoilt kids. Joecanuk put it best in pointing out that thousands of our ancestors fought and died together regardless of political ideal and religon or percieved nationality. Shame on you for reducing dead Irish/Ulster men to political scoring points. They died so that we could live free.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 09:55 AMPounder
I think you will find he also consistently missed the point of the whole debate.
Again well said at @ 01:12 AM Young Fella. Turgon, to an extent you rubbish biased Unionism in one sentence and then apologise for being unbiased. Don’t you see the contradiction? Having the courage of your convictions to state what you believe in and not being held by the groups intrinsic and often unfathomable bias. You have nothing to be ashamed of.
Meanwhile the madness goes on unabated!
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 11:43 AMDavid
I,m sure the figures you quoted concerning the number of catholic’s serving in the police in 96 were correct. One of reason that catholic numbers were low at that time is surely down to the provo’s murder campain. If they lived in a catholic area then they were easy targets.Unlike now I don’t remember anyone being turned down in the past for being the wrong religion. Surely jobs should be given on merit which certainly isn’t happening now.
The S.D.L.P are a joke and nothing more than anti protestant party and the sooner they disappear the better or at least get rid of the prod haters( i’m having second thoughts. Are they just anti unionist?). I,m sure someone will enlighten me.
The only thing I do respect about them was that unlike their co-religionist in sinn fein they never MURDERED anyone but I,m afraid Durkin is ruining the legacy left to him by Hume.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:35 PMPrince, what is the point in the debate. A pissing match over a bloody flag. I may be missing the point, so might Joe. But do you not think that if more people started missing the point in the same way we might just start getting along?
Personally I am a pacifist and find war distasteful, but I do think that the men who fought and died deserve to be remembered. In my opinion the SDLP have made themselves look extreemly petty, even the Shinners didn’t see fit to comment.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 02:27 PMAh Lib, so what you are saying can be summarised as thus: commemorate the war dead if you must, but only in a way that we deem accepatable and non-offensive. It really never ceases to amaze me just how petty and quite frankly, childish some nationalists are. First we had the nonsense over an Ikea store and no this.
As my oul granda (himself a WWII veteran) would say: “would you away an catch yersel on”.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 03:22 PMIrish nationalists fought and died in the First World War. There’s absolutely nothing offensive to me in unionists preferring to ignore their contribution.
What is offensive is inviting the schools under false pretences and then introducing the flag after the invitations had been accepted. No wonder the British find your antics appalling.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 03:35 PM
