Monday, June 18, 2007
Forming the wrong conclusions?
The BBC has throughout the day been promoting tonight’s ‘State of Minds: The Children’ programme which has been surveying children’s opinions about their identity. All of the children were born in 1997, and the findings, whilst not exactly surprising, once again underline the divisive nature of national identities in the north of Ireland today.
What is surprising, however, is the conclusions being reached by the programme’s researcher, Professor Paul Connolly of Queen’s University. Professor Connolly believes the way forward must involve “[encouraging] children’s sense of being Protestant or Catholic alongside also helping them to recognise that they are all part of a wider and shared identity as Northern Irish.”
Forgive me for being blunt, but describing identity in primarily religious terms here is an entirely bogus premise. Given that the issue of national identity runs to the core of the political problem, proposing we skirt over people’s primary source of identity-as British or Irish- and instead propagate an alternative ‘northern Irish’ identity sounds very Alliance-ish to me.
Surely a better conclusion would be to assert that we must find ways of equally legitimising and respecting the primary national allegiances of British and Irish here as a prerequisite to developing inter-communal trust from which shared identities may evolve. Ignoring primary identities and instead proposing artificial allegiances is more likely to arouse suspicion and mistrust on all sides. Let’s open this one to the floor.
Chris Donnelly @ 02:12 PM
It seems naive to ignore the religious aspect of our identity and the depth to which it is important.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 03:41 PMGood pitch Chris. The only obvious caveat is that religion is the primary difference in how schools are organised. Most of the national/cultural identity comes after that. That’s not to predetermine which people feel is primary and which secondary, but it’s entirely sensible for Professor Connolly to set his baseline there.
Would I now speak Irish had my parents chosen to send me to (as an increasing number of local Catholic parents do) the local state school? Even though it was in the family, without the extra exposure at school it might have proved difficult. But, I’m fairly sure, religion was the primary reason for me being sent to a Catholic school.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 04:00 PMI am both Irish and protestant, as well as British. The protestantism does seem to be part of my identity.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 04:17 PM...but hang on, ‘religion’ is in many cases just an ethnic marker, rather than denoting actual religious faith (certainly so in the case of young children). I find it disturbing that we should be ‘encouraging children’s sense of being Catholic or Protestant’. Clearly religious, ethnic and national identity should be discussed, but only once children are old enough to discuss these issues for themselves rather than have some teacher mould their attitudes according to some ministerial schema.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 04:37 PMCan somebody explain what ‘Northern’ Irishness is as opposed to plain old Irishness.
Does it have something to do with Ormo bread?
I’m genuinely interested.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 05:47 PMI believe the children are our future,
Treat them well and let them lead they way,
Show them all the beauty they possess inside.Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 08:01 PMWay back in the early seventies we had some earnest student with an English accent come into our secondary school and subject us all to a battery of loaded questions about religion blah de blah de blah.
I think she might have been a postgraduate student. We gave her what she wanted, you could see her greedily lap it all up and off she went happy. I’m sure we could have done it for the BBC too.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 08:09 PMproposing we skirt over people’s primary source of identity-as British or Irish- and instead propagate an alternative ‘northern Irish’ identity sounds very Alliance-ish to me.
It’s probably a good idea, then.
But I don’t recall anyone saying ‘northern Irish’ was an alternative.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 08:23 PMSurely a better conclusion would be to assert that we must find ways of equally legitimising and respecting the primary national allegiances of British and Irish here as a prerequisite to developing inter-communal trust from which shared identities may evolve. Ignoring primary identities and instead proposing artificial allegiances is more likely to arouse suspicion and mistrust on all sides. Let’s open this one to the floor.
“Allegiances”? Where did that come from. The subject is identity: you seem to be advocating the promotion of two entirely separate and opposing identities, albeit with equal “legitimacy”. To me, that is depressing and a recipe for entrenching social division in this society.
Let’s emphasise what we have in common: Northern Irishness is a type of Irishness that encompasses both your Gaelic/Catholic brand and all other types, including British-Irishness.
You really are going to have to accept that Northern Ireland, while being no less Irish, is nonetheless different to the rest of Ireland (and will be, even in a so-called “united Ireland”). The results of this survey should make that clear!
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 08:58 PMMick
You make good points. However, whilst religion is the basis for school organisation, even in your own case, you recognise the cultural/ political environment which clearly influences parents when determining choice of school for their young ones.
The conflict in the north of Ireland was a political one, though the dividing lines were clearly along religious lines due to the peculiar history of Ireland.
On another point, you mention the number of catholic parents opting for state schools. Whilst there does exist a pattern of middle-class catholic parents opting to send their child to a state grammar as opposed to a catholic grammar, the numbers are not significant enough to suggest this is anything other than a response to local, particular circumstances. Certainly, I am aware of such a pattern in Strabane and North Belfast.
However, I also know of a catholic primary in North Down which has a significant majority of protestants amongst its intake. The underlying theme in each case is decisions motivated by class concerns, as opposed to ‘political’ in our nationalist: unionist context.
Having now watched the full programme, I have to say I was not particularly impressed by some of the findings. We all know catholics and protestants identify Rangers and Celtic with one community or the other, but it appeared to me that the findings were not particularly convincing to suggest an inherited prejudice amongst our youth- what would have been interesting is if the children (particularly the boys) had’ve been shown photos of children adorned with Manchester United and Liverpool shirts- I would be willing to bet that the % of boys opting for one as the most/ least friendly might have closely resembled the findings for Rangers/ Celtic.
Of course, that’s not to dispute the authenticity of the overall findings: like in any society, we pass on our beliefs, interests, passions and prejudices to our children through shared experiences, anecdotes and choices made on a child’s behalf.
There is no doubt that most unionists and nationalists live parallel lives here. It is incumbent upon this generation to lay the foundations for a more positive future through fostering new relationships at all levels.
But to achieve that, we must be honest about personal and collective fears, prejudices and beliefs which have contributed towards the development of two cohesive national/ religious blocs in the north of Ireland.
And so to the crux of the matter. I don’t believe a ‘shared identity’ is even within sight unless it is preceded by a period in which people believe their primary identity- in all its aspects- is afforded legitimacy and equal worth.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 08:59 PMHey Chris, looks like the BBC is fighting back against your analysis!! You’ve struck a nerve there mate. Touchy media types lol
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2007/06/are_you_northern_irish.html
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 09:01 PMCan somebody explain what ‘Northern’ Irishness is as opposed to plain old Irishness.
Does it have something to do with Ormo bread?
I’m genuinely interested.
Posted by Cahal on Jun 18, 2007 @ 07:47 PM
As an Irish man living in ‘Northern’ Ireland I think the one thing more than anything else that I accept as my ‘Northern’ Irishness is my preference for HP sauce over that Chef shit that you can only get in every eating establishment in the 26 counties.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 09:01 PMAn important issue Tir Eoghain Gael, and one I’m sure the SDLP will be raising at Stormont in the coming days.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 10:10 PMChris, by describing Northern Irishness as representative of “artificial allegiances” you are suggesting that Irishness and Britishness are in some way ‘natural’ states of mind. All identities are artificial as such, and are constucted by the particular political, social and cultural environment.
As Tir Eoghain Gael might have noticed, the Republic’s elections suggest that quite a few people in Ireland see a division between southern and Northern nationalist identity!
Instead of retreating into simple exclusivist nationalisms we should embrace the diversity and complexity of identity. By doing so we could maybe even give some sort of lead to the wider globalised world which is coming to terms with many of the same issues.
Also I believe that the centrality of religious identity in this place has to be confronted. I would argue that religion in its theology/psychological framework, its social role and in its power as an ethnic-national marker still has primary importance. I thought it was especially instructive that even the highly politicised north Belfast lad described his community as Catholic, not nationalist or republican.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 11:23 PMWhile the likes of Mr Donnelly’s petulant sectarianism will not even grant his unionists neighbours the respect of uttering the name of his and their country - Northern Ireland - it is hard to see how things are going to progress north of the border.
Until such times as he and his ilk grow up, the price of peace will be eternal vigilance over their irredentist, undemocratic brand of ultra-nationalism.
Hopefully the recent decimation of the Provo pipe dream in the Republic will act as a wake up call in private, even if they aren’t men enough to accept the fact in public.Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 11:45 PMcan you not understand that no matter how many lines are drawn across maps, how often they are maintained by force of arms or artificial majorities, no matter what terminologies or nomenclature you invent we will still oppose it. we won’t legitimise the imposition by using the enemies terminologies.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2007 @ 01:11 AM“we won’t legitimise the imposition by using the enemies terminologies.”
OK, I’ll ride ye, but I’m not gonna call ye Nancy, I’m gonna call ye Niamh instead.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2007 @ 06:45 AMThere’s one question that hasn’t been answered yet. Should Catholic and Protestant going to be schooled together? Until that happens everything else is just word puffery. 10-year olds aren’t particularly patriotic one way or the other in my experience.
I think most people from mainland Britain and the south of Ireland would consider Northern Irish a distinct identity. Nordies are Irish to unionists and Brits but pretty fortright about being Northern Irish when they come down south.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2007 @ 08:57 AMI dont see a problem with forging a Northern Ireland identity.
After all the ROI has its own identiy despite being culturally no different to the rest of ‘these islands’. ;-P
Posted by on Jun 19, 2007 @ 09:13 AM667 children from .666Ulster.
You could not make it up!
Posted by on Jun 19, 2007 @ 09:14 AMAs an Irish man living in ‘Northern’ Ireland I think the one thing more than anything else that I accept as my ‘Northern’ Irishness is my preference for HP sauce over that Chef shit that you can only get in every eating establishment in the 26 counties.
Worse than that TE Gael, have you ever eaten the Tayto crisps they have down there? Greasy as sin, the flavour’s wrong, all in all, totally bogging.
On the other hand, the easy availablity of Jumbo Breakfast Rolls in the South might well argue for an all-Ireland identity…
Posted by on Jun 19, 2007 @ 09:55 AMOh, and while I’m at it…
Chris is very defensive about us Alliance types this weather… shooting the messenger (who, as far as I know, has no connection with Alliance), because you don’t like the message?
Identity in Northern Ireland is more complex than those in the Republican echo chamber would like to believe; every demoscopic examination of identity since Rose back in the ‘60s has presented a patchwork quilt, and often a rapidly changing one. But as this doesn’t fit in with the simplistic, Án Phoblacht, analysis of the conflict, obviously it’s a case of these nasty Alliance types poking their nose where it isn’t welcome.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2007 @ 10:00 AM“obviously it’s a case of these nasty Alliance types poking their nose where it isn’t welcome.”
The Alliance no more deals with that patch work of identity than anyone else, and are sanctimonious with it to boot.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2007 @ 10:02 AMAye, those breakfast sandwiches with white pudding in them, lovely, oh dear, my tapeworm says its time for lunch.
But seriously Chris, I hate to break it to your jaundiced little mind but there is nothing artificial about my Northern Irishness, I, like many, many others, have been raised here & when someone asks me where I’m from my answer is Northern Ireland.
Its about time you stopped living in denial.Posted by on Jun 19, 2007 @ 10:18 AMThe Alliance no more deals with that patch work of identity than anyone else, and are sanctimonious with it to boot.
Ah, I see you’re in evidence-based, play-the-ball-not-the-man, mode today ken.
I can see those nasty inconvenient facts time and again spoiling simplistic Republican analysis of the conflict puts you in a bad mood, but what have I done to deserve you taking it out on me?
Posted by on Jun 19, 2007 @ 10:31 AM
