Tuesday, December 18, 2007
Foreign workers - the wrong type of Catholics, according to Sinn Fein MLA…
CATHOLIC workers from outside Northern Ireland should not be counted as Catholics, according to Sinn Fein’s Martina Anderson, since it apparently gives a false impression of the number of nationalists in employment. Whether this counts as racism, xenophobia or sectarianism I’ll leave it to the debate below, but it’s certainly clear that for this MLA, immigrants are not the right type of Catholics, since they are not (she assumes) Irish nationalists. I think this is pretty insulting to immigrant workers and many employers (and I’m sure that more than a handful of republicans and nationalists will take umbrage), but what is her solution? Since it would probably be silly or illegal to ask foreign Catholics to tick the ‘other’ religious box on their job application, as she suggests, what is her alternative? Should people seeking employment tick a box stating their political persuasion? And how would that help lessen discrimination, rather than increase it? It’s rare that Sinn Fein MLAs exhibit such a narrow view of the world these days, but - at a time when you could barely slip a cigarette paper between the employment gap separating the two main traditions in Northern Ireland - this is the kind of atavistic thinking you would be lucky to hear from the BNP these days. UPDATE: The Equality Commission and the DUP’s Gregory Campbell has weighed in (see below fold).
Anderson said: “They should be categorised as having a background of ‘other’. Employers do not perceive migrant workers as belonging to the local nationalist or unionist communities and this is artificially inflating the Catholic/nationalist representation in the workforce, the bulk of whom are from Catholic countries. The same situation has arisen within the internal tracking systems of the PSNI making it difficult to track the true numbers of Catholics/nationalist applying or being appointed locally.”
So many assumptions, where does one start?
It’s bad enough having to reveal your religious identity when applying for a job here, but you should at least be allowed to express what that actually is. To have another religious identity imposed is bad enough, but for it to be regarded as meaningless is more than insulting.
Since Anderson really wants to know the number of Irish nationalists in the workforce, the only real alternative is to ask jobseekers to reveal their political beliefs on application forms.
Can anyone really see this ever happening?
UPDATE from the News Letter:
DUP MP Gregory Campbell said Sinn Fein was trying to obscure the true picture.
“If you take this issue of categorisation to its logical conclusion, it would mean that everyone not born here would have to be described as ‘others’ or ‘outsiders’ – it’s ludicrous.
“If people are coming to work here, they are part of the Northern Ireland community so you don’t continue to categorise them as outsiders or ‘others’ as this can make the situation worse.”
He said Sinn Fein had a problem with what the figures were showing.
“The figures show an emerging pattern which is Protestant under-representation in the workforce and this is a smokescreen to try and divert attention from the real issue, which is to address that under-representation which I and others have been highlighting for years now.”
Meanwhile, in the Irish News, Bob Collins, chief commissioner of the Equality Commission said any alteration would require legislative change.
However, he said new methods are under consideration.
“The data contained in the monitoring report is an accurate account of the returns given by all registered employers under the terms of the current legislation,” he said.
Belfast Gonzo @ 11:57 AM
At least she’s not trying to kill people anymore.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 01:34 PMGonzo you really do clutch at straws mate!
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 01:37 PMYou got to this just before me! What a wierd thing to say. Some Ireland of equals.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 01:39 PMSDLP dominance in Derry is secure as long as Sinn Féin have candidates of such low calibre.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 01:41 PMMmmmm Looks like all those who thought that Sinn Fein was anything more than a punch of racists and facists have been mistaken.
Maybe Gerry had a chat with her and discovered her views. It would explain why she was swiftly dropped as their ‘Outreach’ Director.
I’ve got even more worrying news for Martina - many Irish Catholics arent pro United Ireland nationalists.
Obviously we will need to find a way of filtering these West Brit traitors out of the figures - sure we would want them getting jobs would we Martina!
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 01:42 PMThis is a pretty spectularly poor comment from Ms. Anderson. At the risk of playing the woman one would have thought a bit more of a supposedly serious and educated politician. This sort of stunning undisguised bigotry is pretty rare from SF these days.
Her equally amazing spell as Director of Unionist Outreach contained many equivalent pieces of pure unadulterated bigotry.
This lady is not some half wit, far from it.
I would submit that she is playing her part exactly as she is asked to.
The unionist outreach may have seemed like a debacle but had its uses. It helped make the hardliners in SF feel that their agenda was still being promoted: that the work for a united Ireland went on, it annoyed Prods which is always pleasing to a certain brand of republican and when unionists rejected her advances it was seen as proof of their bigotry allowing a good bit of MOPEry.
This episode comes at a time when SF are having to say nasty things about some in the IRA after the Quinn murder. Hence, for Anderson to pop up with some good old fashioned bigotry shows that SF have not gone soft. It also creates a potential diversion from the Quinn murder. It allows the media and DUP to complain about SF and yet Anderson’s outburst has no significance to the continuation of power sharing whereas the Quinn murder might. It is a classic diversion.
In addition, at a time when potentially support around Strabane is problematic with difficulties regarding the DPP it is also useful for a leading local SF member to be seen to be mouthing a good extreme line.
It also allows for a good MOPE fest in that Prods still have our jobs and it only looks good because of these pesky foreign RCs.
So far from this woman being a bigoted idiot; I would suggest she is acting as a lightning conductor for the more hardline elements in the republican community. Hence, a bigot she may be but perhaps not an idiot.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:05 PMI believe xenophobia is the term being used across the big water whenever college graduates get lippy about having to flip burgers or stack shelves because white collar jobs are being in-sourced, or subsequently outsourced.
But of course the beauty of modern discourse is that anyone who questions anything about anything is potentially guilty of racism, xenophobia, and sectarianism all in one.
And since being the first to say it is the all important matter, I lay a pre-emptive marker down that says anyone who disagrees with my points in any way is fundamentally racist, incurably xenophobic, and deeply sectarian.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:06 PM“...at a time when you could barely slip a cigarette paper between the employment gap separating the two main traditions in Northern Ireland…” - Belfast Gonzo
To be fair to a Shinner, I think her point is how do you know the gap is that narrow between “the two main traditions” if it is tracked by religion and not tracked by ‘tradition’ when religious affiliation (due to immigration) is no longer a reliable guide to either nationalist or unionist affiliation. In reference to the PSNI, she probably suspects that they will fill their quota of ‘Catholics’ by importing them rather than filling the quota from the nationalist community (which is what Patten meant to happen in order for it to be representative of the community).
Obviously, it would be nice to pretend that members of “the two main traditions” will no longer discriminate against each other, but due to the history, you do need a reliable means of tracking it to ensure that old habits have died off (or been killed off).Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:12 PMGonzo,
You’ve missed the point completely. What this unfortunate comment highlights is simply that using protestant/catholic as a signifier for unionist/nationalist is a bad solution to a bad problem, and should never have been something that was entered into legislation.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:16 PMThis statement has nothing to do with people coming here and gaining employment. If any of you take the time to read her statement you will see that she is clearly talking to the number crunchers and unionist politicians who tell us that catholics are getting jobs and discrimination does ot exist in the six counties. While those people in places like Derry, North and West Belfast clearly continue to experience discrimination.
The data produced by the government’s own body the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, the Northern Ireland Multiple Deprivation Measure 2005 gives the following results. Based on their analysis of a range of factors, including income, employment, and access to services, NI was divided up into almost 900 equally sized areas in order to map out “regional inequalities”.
• Out of 900 areas in total, 19 of the top 20 most deprived areas are in North and West Belfast or Derry.
• Of the top 100 most deprived areas in NI out of a total of 900, over three quarters are within North and West Belfast or Derry.
• Of the top 50 wealthiest areas in NI, none are in North and West Belfast or Derry.
• In fact, of the top 100 wealthiest areas in NI out of a total of 900, only one, is in North and West Belfast or Derry, namely, the Covehill part of North Belfast, which is an historically affluent part of the city, surrounded by some of the poorest areas that suffered both economically and physically during the conflict.To attempt to turn is this statement into an argument about racism against immigrants coming to Ireland is an attempt to hide away from the reality of her point. The figures above clearly demonstrate the underlying point Martina Anderson is making. Discrimination is alive and well in the 2007.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:19 PMI think this brings up into sharp relief that the Northern conflict was never about religion.
Just as in my native West of Scotland Italian Catholics and Polish Catholics were not discrimianted against by the host community-that delight was reserved for the “Tims ” the “Fenians”.
The utility function of the Northern state,pre direct rule, was to keep the Taigs in their place.
Religion was only ever a handy badge, but it didnt tell the whole story.
Now that other catholics are coming into the place who are not socially constructed as Taigs then there is indeed another device needed to track whether or not denizens of the Bogside and the Short strand are getting into the PSNI in appropriate numbers.Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:21 PMSurely it’s a cause for celebration when even SF no longer believes that atavistic anti-Catholic bigotry could be detected from employment statistics. After all - why would a bona-fide religious bigot prefer Polish Catholics to local ones?
But, if SF get their way on this, what’s next - eliminate graduates from the statistics?
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:21 PMReader-exactly my point-the discrimination was not against catholics.
It was against the native Irish-who could be identified as by their catholicism.
The Polish people coming into NI are not socially constructed as Taigs.
In the same way that Barac Obama with a Kenyan father, rich background, isnt socialy constructed as an African American even though he is 2nd generation african on his father’s side.
there is no cotton field no ghetto in his lineage.
The Poles arent Taigs although they are,of course, catholics.
To say the Northern conflict was a religious war was like saying the Vietnam war was a religious war between Christains and Buddists.Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:36 PM‘how do you know the gap is that narrow between “the two main traditions” if it is tracked by religion and not tracked by ‘tradition’ when religious affiliation (due to immigration) is no longer a reliable guide to either nationalist or unionist affiliation.’
Probably best to appoint on merit and not on the basis of any ‘main tradition’
The SF mask has really slipped now - so much for Equality
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:43 PMElvis-given the undoubted history of discrimination against NI born Catholics in the history of the NI? statelet-then special rules have to be imposed.
Note imposed.
That imposition comes from Westminster in consultation with Dublin.
I know it is difficult for some who still wish the Taigs to be at the back of the bus, but that good ol boy game is up.
I can easily see those with a discriminatory mindset trying to “get round” Patten by hiring , say, Polish people rather than Taigs.
Jim Crow anyone?Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:49 PMphil macgiollabhain: Reader-exactly my point-the discrimination was not against catholics.
So, 40 years of complaints by Shinners, Stoops, Civil-Rightists, Priests and Presidents about anti-Catholic bigotry were just poorly worded, then?
Luckily, you and Martina are here to set them all right.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:52 PMOn a related point, it should also be noted that many immigrants coming here are Protestant, especially from Africa. Are these the wrong kind of Prods too?
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:53 PMI believe that Martina Anderson has a sound point in that it’s so easy to use the religious affiliation of immigrant workers to manipulate the employment statistics.
The discrimintion here was and is based on anti Irish racism,the religious based hatred that has been purposely woven into it,is just a nasty element of this racism.
I believe it would be much clear if employment statistics showed a lot more clarity when describing workers, with clearer terms such as
Irish Catholic
Protestant/Dissenter/Pagan
or
British/Unionist Catholic/Protestant/Dissenter/Pagan
or
none of the above.Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 02:54 PMReader-yes it was poorly worded-just as the hatred of Catholics in the West of Scotland and the subsequent discrimination was,in fact, anti Irish racism.
The derogatory words for Catholics in my native West of Scotland were clearly of Irish origin.Anti-Catholic feeling in NI and the West of Scotland were socially constructed from the position that the native Irish played in the UK and the Empire.
Is this too complicated for you?Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 03:00 PM• Out of 900 areas in total, 19 of the top 20 most deprived areas are in North and West Belfast or Derry.
One note of caution - while it is undoubtedly the case that Catholics are on average more deprived than Protestants (though these days there are more rich Taigs than poor Prods), of those 19 areas, 6 are actually in those well known Republican strongholds of Tiger’s Bay and the Shankill.
If you’re going to use statistics to support your MOPE-fest (not impossible, BTW), at least make sure to use them correctly.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 03:01 PMphil macgiollabhain
Religion was only ever a handy badge, but it didnt tell the whole story.
Now that other catholics are coming into the place who are not socially constructed as Taigs then there is indeed another device needed to track whether or not denizens of the Bogside and the Short strand are getting into the PSNI in appropriate numbers.Any body from the Short Strand who can remeber back to 2002 will definately not want to have any thing what so ever to do with the excuse for a police service that led Loyalists on an eight month spree of mayhem in that area.
That was and still is the PSNI, then under the leadership of Hugh Orde and still under his leadership. You can fool some of the people some opf the time and I’m sure you know the rest.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 03:04 PMphil macgiollabhain - I believe we should have quota systems on bus seats: 50/50 for the ‘two traditions’, leaving those hard to define bloody foreigners standing.
It is amazing how quickly we have forgotten the sectarian allocation of bus seats that occurred here. And the segregated water fountains…
Back to the point at hand – doesn’t Anderson’s argument also highlight a lack of care for the discrimination and poor working conditions that immigrants are suffering from?
Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 03:06 PMIt always seemed to me a ridiculous invasion of personal space to have to answer bullshit like this in the first place. This just shows how stupid it was.
It’d be even worse to be asked for your political opinions on job applications than it is to be asked your religion.
What does that leave, nationality? British/Irish/Both/Neither ?
<sarcasm>
That could be fun!
</sarcasm>Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 03:09 PMcut the bull
2002?
Care to expand?Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 03:11 PMToken Dissent.
Very good point.
The working/living conditions of many immigrants in this island is a national disgrace.
I know of conditions of Brazillian people at a meat packing plant in East Donegal that is Dickensian.
Not a peep from the elected reps here-of any party.Posted by on Dec 18, 2007 @ 03:14 PM
