Thursday, March 27, 2008
Football friendlies round-up
Northern Ireland had a comfortable 4-1 victory over Georgia. England lost 1-0 to France. Scotland drew 1-1 with Croatia. Wales won 2-0 over Luxembuorg.
Fair Deal @ 12:16 AM
Nice to see during the god awful days of the troubles in 1973 that a team representing all Irishmen from North and South come very close to beating the World Champions. Sorry to hear about Derek Dougan’s treatment after it too. Martin O’Neill is correct in that it would have been some team around that time, and there would have been 6 Irish players from Arsenal (Brady, Jennings, O’Leary, Nelson, Rice and Stapleton) representing Ireland.. ah ...what might have been.
Thanks for the link Andrew.
Posted by on Apr 01, 2008 @ 07:36 PMIf you think the all-Ireland team was good at that time, imagine how much better an all-British-Isles team would have been, with the top English, Scottish and Welsh players also involved.
World beaters!
Posted by on Apr 01, 2008 @ 07:41 PM“Do you as (I presume) a Catholic find the “no surrender to the IRA” sentiment a provocative taunt because you are a Catholic then?”
As someone born into the Catholic faith but considers themselves irreligious no.
It’s the other more err, “traditional” and “colourful” songs from “the best wee supporters in the world” that I find offensive.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=gMCAljqoTVc
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=3Divl_I-pyg
Posted by on Apr 01, 2008 @ 08:01 PMWhere did Billy go?
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 09:17 AMChekov
“Billy is obsessed. He crawls out of the woodwork every time there’s a thread about the Northern Ireland team”
Classic - it must be my imagination or else someone is using your name because ‘Chekov’ also seems to come “out of the woodwork” every time there is a thread about the 6 county team. In your case, it’s always to claim that all is wonderful and there is no sectarian chanting and generally to downplay the decades of disgraceful sectarian behaviour of the so-called “GAWA”.
It might upset you but there are some honest “GAWA” members here who freely admit that it was very bad for a very long time.
Maybe we’re both obsessed but only 1 of us is trying to revise history and it isn’t me.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 10:59 AMBilly Liar, you’ve just lied again. You tried to revise history by telling the lies which I have quoted on the previous page.
Do yourself a favour and have the integrity to retract them.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 11:01 AM“In your case, it’s always to claim that all is wonderful and there is no sectarian chanting and generally to downplay the decades of disgraceful sectarian behaviour of the so-called “GAWA”.”
I have never claimed that everything is wonderful. And the reason that I post on many threads concerning the Northern Ireland team is because I’m a passionate supporter of the team.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 11:04 AMWillowfield
You should get out more!
As you are well aware, you made an very strong implication ( effectively an allegation) about me that was a lot more serious than anything I supposedly said about you - you know what I’m referring to.
I stated before that, since you are not prepared to apologise then neither am I, so it would be more sensible to move on.
If you want to bore people to death with these posts about who said what, go ahead.
When you’re ready to talk about your implication (allegations), you let me know.
If you just want to take up pages whinging about me, that play, etc etc - I’ll pass and anyone sensible would do the same.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 11:06 AMHence my comments on this thread, which up until your appearance were confined to thoughts on the selection and performance of the team. Do you have any thoughts on the selection or performance of the team Billy?
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 11:07 AMBilly Liar
As you are well aware, you made an very strong implication ( effectively an allegation) about me that was a lot more serious than anything I supposedly said about you - you know what I’m referring to.
I’m afraid I don’t, Billy, you’ll have to enlighten me. I’ve no idea to what you’re referring.
I stated before that, since you are not prepared to apologise then neither am I, so it would be more sensible to move on.
I am more than prepared to apologise if I have made erroneous or unfair statements. Indeed, I remember apologising to you last year sometime.
Why are your apologies dependent upon your wholly inaccurate assumption about my unwillingness to apologise? Don’t you have sufficient integrity to admit when you are wrong - regardless of what others do?
But let’s forget an apology for now: presumably you now accept that you told lies?
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 11:25 AMKensei
“My flag is the Tricolour. My anthem is the Soldier’s Song. Those are the symbols that have emotional pull. I am a citizen of the Republic and carry an Irish passport and am proud of it. I despise monarchy and would be happier for God to drown them all than save them.”
This punter is perfectly respectful to anyone who feels that strongly and doesn’t feel any antipathy towards them...would be nice to think that you could extend the same courtesy to a fellow Irish passport holder who feels it is perfectly inkeeping with his brand of Irish patriotism to wholeheartedly support his fellow-Irishmen who play for the Northern Ireland football team…
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 12:15 PMCharlie
This punter is perfectly respectful to anyone who feels that strongly and doesn’t feel any antipathy towards them...would be nice to think that you could extend the same courtesy to a fellow Irish passport holder who feels it is perfectly inkeeping with his brand of Irish patriotism to wholeheartedly support his fellow-Irishmen who play for the Northern Ireland football team…
I’m a live and let live kind of guy and am quite happy for everyone else to do what they want regardless of what anyone else thinks, least of all me. Personally, I’m entirely neutral on NI..... unless there is either 1. horrible sectarianism (thankfully diminishing) 2. they decide they want to try and block Irish citizens playing for their country in which case I’m, entirely happy to see them beat.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 12:33 PMYou’re not a ‘live and let live kind of guy’ at all Kensei. You’re trying to prescribe identity even in the post in which you claim to be a ‘live and let live kind of guy’. You’re trying to define Irishness in a way which links it exclusively to the Republic of Ireland. Preventing Irish people from playing for the Republic of Ireland is not preventing them from playing for their country. If they have no geographical or parental link with the Republic of Ireland it is preventing them from playing for a country which is not theirs. If people are born in Northern Ireland, live in Northern Ireland and their parents and grandparents are from Northern Ireland their country is Northern Ireland, in terms of geography, political realities and football. You’re not a ‘live and let live kind of guy’, you’re a nasty little ethno nationalist attempting to run roughshod over the principle of consent.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 01:02 PMChekov
You’re not a ‘live and let live kind of guy’ at all Kensei. You’re trying to prescribe identity even in the post in which you claim to be a ‘live and let live kind of guy’.
I’m not prescribing any identity. I merely state the one that means anything to me, and am content for others to do whatever fulfills them. Perhaps you missed that point.
You’re trying to define Irishness in a way which links it exclusively to the Republic of Ireland.
I’m not, of course. I do not claim that it is the be all and end all of Irishness. Simply that it is my Irishness, and I’m proud of it faults and all.
Preventing Irish people from playing for the Republic of Ireland is not preventing them from playing for their country.
Well, it is if they are a citizen of that country.
If they have no geographical or parental link with the Republic of Ireland it is preventing them from playing for a country which is not theirs. If people are born in Northern Ireland, live in Northern Ireland and their parents and grandparents are from Northern Ireland their country is Northern Ireland, in terms of geography, political realities and football.
Countries are political and cultural entities. Nationalists here have full citizenship.
You’re not a ‘live and let live kind of guy’, you’re a nasty little ethno nationalist attempting to run roughshod over the principle of consent.
I am not a course an ethnic anything, and I don’t think I’m actually the one being nasty here. The principle applies regardless of whether the Irish citizen is black, white, Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or other. However, I don’t know if I’m entirely comfortable with labeling any form of Nationalism or community as “ethno” with some dark connotations. Shared culture, shared history and family ties are part of the things that bind countries together. That can be use din negative ways, but it doesn’t have to be.
The PoC refers to the jurisdiction that the Six Counties are governed by. It does not say anything about the Nationalist of people within said state. Indeed the GFA specifically references the fact that people are free to choose their nationality.
But we’ve done this to death. If you have appetite for further argument, go read the relevant threads.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 01:55 PM“The PoC refers to the jurisdiction that the Six Counties are governed by. It does not say anything about the Nationalist of people within said state.”
It means that they will respect the institutions of that state and accept that those of another state do not enjoy jurisdiction until such times as the majority says they do.
“Indeed the GFA specifically references the fact that people are free to choose their nationality.”
It does not. It recognises the equal legitimacy of identities. Identity and political nationality are two separate things. The GFA recognises the aspiration to a united Ireland. It does not recognise the right to act like a united Ireland has been achieved or joint sovereignty is in place.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 03:09 PMI should say that I know the Agreement recognises the right of both countries to grant citizenship, but again that is not the same thing as allowing people to cleave to whichever institutions the feel most comfortable with. They cannot under the GFA choose their nationality as regards institutions and that includes football.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 03:14 PMChekov
I should say that I know the Agreement recognises the right of both countries to grant citizenship, but again that is not the same thing as allowing people to cleave to whichever institutions the feel most comfortable with. They cannot under the GFA choose their nationality as regards institutions and that includes football.
One follows from the other. Citizenship is the legal expression of “identity” and “nationality”. People are entirely free to ignore institutions to the degree that access to the separate citizenship of the Republic allows them to do so. The PoC also does not mean that everyone here has to like or respect every institution, however much you’d wish it to be so.
Until now, access to Irish citizenship has provided an unambiguous right to declare for the Republic’s football team if they so desire. The IFA has sought to attack that using a ruling regarding Brazilians being given passports for Qatar solely to play football for that country, and often on a temporary basis. To do so both undermines the provisions of the GFA regarding nationality and is a huge misreading (of the nationalist mindset.
Again, done all this before too many times.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 03:29 PMRemind me again what Tony Cacsarino’s nationality was? I’m sure it was different to Andy Townsend, and all the other ROI players who were about as irish as Ghengis Khan.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 03:38 PMHow does Maik Taylor qualify for the North?
I’m pretty sure he has no parent,grandparent or great grandparent connections here, yet still plays
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 03:55 PM“One follows from the other. Citizenship is the legal expression of “identity” and “nationality””
You are wrong. Identity, nationality and citizenship are three different things.
“People are entirely free to ignore institutions to the degree that access to the separate citizenship of the Republic allows them to do so. The PoC also does not mean that everyone here has to like or respect every institution, however much you’d wish it to be so.”You are wrong. It may be possible to ignore institutions, but it is also contrary to the principle of consent. It is therefore correct to attempt to close down these possibilities where they occur. The IFA were correct to attempt to close down the possibility as regards football.
“Until now, access to Irish citizenship has provided an unambiguous right to declare for the Republic’s football team if they so desire.”
That sentence simply does not carry any meaning. What does carry meaning is that northern players attempting to play for the southern team is a reasonably recent phenomenon and one that the IFA must combat.
“The IFA has sought to attack that using a ruling regarding Brazilians being given passports for Qatar solely to play football for that country, and often on a temporary basis. To do so both undermines the provisions of the GFA regarding nationality and is a huge misreading (of the nationalist mindset).”
The IFA has sought to ensure that FIFA applies its rules consistently due to the increasingly aggressive attempts of the FAI to poach players from outside its territory. They are not infringing any part of the Good Friday Agreement, which does not have anything to say about football and does not provide people with a right to pick and choose institutions on the basis of their perceived identity, but rather undertakes to respect both the Irish and British identities within Northern Ireland. The IFA is not bound to attempt to read the nationalist mindset.
“Again, done all this before too many times.”
And yet you chose once again to raise the issue on a thread which was primarily concerned with events on the football field.Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 04:03 PMUntil now, access to Irish citizenship has provided an unambiguous right to declare for the Republic’s football team if they so desire.
I think it’s stretching it to say “unambiguous”, given the wranglings there have been and the less-than-forthright utterances from FIFA.
WHat is the case, in my view, is that the current FIFA rules do allow Northerners to play for the South. I think the IFA has misunderstood the rules and, instead of seeking a modification to the rules to close the loophole, they have been counter-productively arguing for the current rules to be enforced.
The IFA has sought to attack that using a ruling regarding Brazilians being given passports for Qatar solely to play football for that country, and often on a temporary basis. To do so both undermines the provisions of the GFA regarding nationality and is a huge misreading (of the nationalist mindset.
I think that’s not quite accurate. The IFA is relying on a provision in respect of players “whose nationality entitles them to play for more than one team”. It happens to be appended to the ruling which is relevant to the Qatar situation, but it is not actually the Qatar situation on which the IFA relies.
Also, the provisions of the GFA are not relevant, and nor is “reading the nationalist mindset”.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 04:16 PMYou are wrong. Identity, nationality and citizenship are three different things.
Yes. “Identity” and “nationality” are amorphous concepts; “citizenship” is a concrete legal construction. Citizenship is normally reflective of nationality though.
You are wrong. It may be possible to ignore institutions, but it is also contrary to the principle of consent.
It really isn’t. The PoC has no relation to which football team I wish to support, or whether I retain an Irish passport or a British one. It speaks solely to the governance of the six.
That sentence simply does not carry any meaning. What does carry meaning is that northern players attempting to play for the southern team is a reasonably recent phenomenon and one that the IFA must combat.
Actually, there have been examples going back a number of years; moreover the principle was unambiguous since year dot as it was a pure citizenship rule until very recently. The IFA are attempting to exploit changes for a different purpose for its own ends. It’s backfired badly.
The IFA has sought to ensure that FIFA applies its rules consistently due to the increasingly aggressive attempts of the FAI to poach players from outside its territory.
It should not attempt to get FIFA to apply rules for situations they were not designed for. Fortunately, FIFA has consistently agreed.
They are not infringing any part of the Good Friday Agreement, which does not have anything to say about football and does not provide people with a right to pick and choose institutions on the basis of their perceived identity, but rather undertakes to respect both the Irish and British identities within Northern Ireland. The IFA is not bound to attempt to read the nationalist mindset.
It is certainly contrary to the spirit of the GFA: it is also doing nothing for the IFA’s standing within Nationalism and is entirely counter productive.
“Again, done all this before too many times.”
And yet you chose once again to raise the issue on a thread which was primarily concerned with events on the football field.Nope, I responded to Charlie and made a passing point. You insisted on going through it again. Come back when FIFA changes its mind.
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 05:20 PM#Two legends of Northern Ireland football have said the time may be right for an all-Ireland team.
Pat Jennings and Martin O’Neill were speaking at an event in Dublin to mark the last time an all-Ireland football team took to the field.
In 1973 a ‘Shamrock Rovers XI’ took on world champions Brazil in Dublin.
Aston Villa manager O’Neill told the Irish Examiner the political climate had changed and an all-Ireland team was now a “possibility”.
However, he added: “I don’t know even at this stage if everyone would want it to happen.
“From the playing viewpoint, you can imagine the possibilities. For instance, Northern Ireland went on to the 1982 World Cup and we actually played in the quarter-finals.
It’s the bureaucracy involved in changing things that has always been the problem
Pat Jennings
“And can you imagine what our side would have been like then if it had included Frank Stapleton and Liam Brady? We would have been phenomenal.”
Jennings, who played a record 119 times for Northern Ireland, told the Daily Mail an all-Ireland team would have a better chance of qualifying and going further in competitions.
“You would have a better squad. If you have one or two injuries in key positions, none of us, north or south, could cope with that at the moment,” he said.
Pat Jennings won 119 caps for Northern Ireland
“It’s the bureaucracy involved in changing things that has always been the problem, and it’s a measure of the opposition there was to the (1973) fixture from the IFA that the team had to play under the guise of a Shamrock Rovers XI.”
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 07:46 PMBilly Liar
As you are well aware, you made an very strong implication ( effectively an allegation) about me that was a lot more serious than anything I supposedly said about you - you know what I’m referring to.
I’m afraid I don’t, Billy, you’ll have to enlighten me. I’ve no idea to what you’re referring. Spill the beans.
I stated before that, since you are not prepared to apologise then neither am I, so it would be more sensible to move on.
I am more than prepared to apologise if I have made erroneous or unfair statements. Indeed, I remember apologising to you last year sometime.
Why are your apologies dependent upon your wholly inaccurate assumption about my unwillingness to apologise? Don’t you have sufficient integrity to admit when you are wrong - regardless of what others do?
But let’s forget an apology for now: presumably you now accept that you told lies, even if you’re not prepared to apologise?
Posted by on Apr 02, 2008 @ 08:16 PMHello? Where has Billy gone?
Posted by on Apr 03, 2008 @ 06:33 PM
