Saturday, September 08, 2007
First Minister to step down as head of church
Despite predictions that he would be re-elected unopposed and the quotes from “well-placed” sources in this report - “We are not expecting anything untoward”, the outcome of last night’s five hour meeting of church elders and ministers of the Free Presbyterian Church was an unexpected statement
“It was agreed by an overwhelming majority of members that all presbytery offices remain as at present for the remainder of this calendar year. In January all offices will be vacated. Dr Paisley has indicated that he will not be standing for the office of moderator of presbytery.”
Officially it’s about not splitting the church.. But we already know what the First Minister thinks about those sceptics.. and what the Deputy First Minister thinks about them too.. Adds From the Irish Times report
One insider said: “It became very obvious that if he did stand he would lose and in those circumstances he pleaded with them not to humiliate him and just let it run to the end of the year and just walk away.”
Pete Baker @ 09:44 AM
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Gotcha!
Where’s your Christian leader going now DUPES? I imagine to sit around the table with SF to deliver equality for all - gays, republicans, maybe even gay republicans.
Power over principle. The big man is a conman up there sitting beside a gunman.
I said before, those who bought into the DUP’s moralism have been slapped in the face by the biggest political trickster going.
Paisley 1 Principle 0
It seems unionists can be so easily misled that at the next election they will probably even supplement the DUP vote further. And that’s just brilliantly ridiculous.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 10:04 AMWow ! This smacks of Paisley jumping before he was pushed. Clearly he didnt want the public embarrassment of being defeated in an election…
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 10:07 AMJings knows I’ve no love of Paisley but he’s rocking and rolling now as far as I’m concerned.
He took not gave what belongs to Caesar. And why not, when he sees his own end nearing? I suspect he finally realized that the only way he could bow out of life and into the history books was to head up an NI Assembly.
He had to leave the FPC behind of course. Naturally this must have cost the old rabble-rouser many dark nights of the soul, but his loss—and the FPC’s loss—is the gain of the rest of us: peace and stability.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 10:36 AM‘Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.’
Thomas Jefferson 1802
Current Match. The score?
Principle 1
FPC 0
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 10:56 AMPaisley has just suffered a predictable defeat as some of us of forecast. The FPC has rightly allowed him to bail out, but in truth he should be thrown out. Of course there are others who also need booted out but I am encouraged that this was one vote that couldn’t be fiddled.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 11:45 AMWell done to Paisley for ditching the FPC dinosaurs in favour of a stable Union.
What odds for our Gerry being given a similar ultimatum in the next 12 months?Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 11:52 AM“What odds for our Gerry being given a similar ultimatum in the next 12 months”
Erm, “Gerry” aint the head of any church as far as I know…
Also his party acheived over 26% of the vote in this years Assembley Elections. The biggest vote for Sinn Fein since the partition of Ireland in 1921.
Cause for dismissal...? Probably not…
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 12:05 PMI think the bible puts it something like this, where your treasure is that’s whee your heart will be also.
Clearly Ian Paisley has finally admitted, being First Minister of Northern Ireland even with Martin McGuiness is more important than all his years as the Free Presbyterian Moderator. He has finally surcumbed to the temptation - all this I will give to you if you bow down and worship me!
In one way I feel very sad because evethough I detest his politics, think his church is very narrowminded I always believed he was sincere. Now I realise that his church like his politics was a means to an end - Ian Paisley First Minister of Northern Ireland at any cost.
It’s really quite disgusting
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 12:06 PMPaisley’s soul has a price. His fundamental belief was the money in his pocket. But this will come right for the FPC. It was a monumental struggle for any dissenters within any church to rise up in the name of right and do what they did. More power to their elbow in finishing the job.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 12:12 PMPaisley has just suffered a predictable defeat as some of us of forecast. The FPC has rightly allowed him to bail out, but in truth he should be thrown out. Of course there are others who also need booted out but I am encouraged that this was one vote that couldn’t be fiddled.
David, weren’t you thrown out yourself a while back, by the electorate ?
Ultonian:
In one way I feel very sad because evethough I detest his politics, think his church is very narrowminded I always believed he was sincere. Now I realise that his church like his politics was a means to an end - Ian Paisley First Minister of Northern Ireland at any cost.
What, you’re only figuring this out now ? It’s been obvious since the late 1950s that Paisley is a powergrabber; he has used his influence continuously since that time for no other purpose.
The FPC is a pathetic cult already dying on it’s feet. Removing Paisley could be the death knell.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 12:12 PMUltonian,
Perhaps we should be a little more charitable. Paisley wouldn’t be the first to see the light and the error of his ways—Jeeze, I’m sounding like Free Pressie—in his declining years. He’s an intelligent chap; he must surely see how well the Assembly is working, largely thanks to his changing his mind.
So why shouldn’t he be happy? He has the power and he’s brought the peace. That’s a pretty good showing in my book.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 12:25 PMThe following statement was published on the Burning Bush website in the last hour:
Press statement from the Presbytery of Ulster
At the Annual General Meeting of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster on 7 September 2007 it was agreed by an overwhelming majority of members that all Presbytery offices should remain as at present for the remainder of this calendar year.
In January 2008 all offices will be vacated. Dr Paisley has indicated that he will not be standing for the office of Moderator of Presbytery.
Ministers and elders left the meeting united, determined to go forward to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ and continue to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
Rev. Ron Johnstone (Deputy Moderator).
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 12:38 PMI am unsure exactly what is happening here. Clearly there are members of the FPC who are unahppy with the current political dispensation.
I think, though, it is not necessarily fair to regard the FPC and the DUP as one and the same. The DUP has gained a number of defectors from the UUP over the past decade or so very few of whom will have been Free Presbyterians.
Also those Free Presbyterians I know and am related to are not that interested in politics. They are interested in a traditional fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. They do vote DUP but they seem to see a distinction between party and church. When I have attended FPC meetings there has never been any politics mentioned. Maybe I have not seen a fair representation.
It is possible that people do genuninely feel there needs to be a separation between the roles of leader of the church and First Minister to protect both the First minister and the FPC from conflicts of interest.
I do know that Ivan Foster has been complaining about liberalising tendancies in the FPC and Paisley himself for some time.
To think the FPC is a cult that will disintegrate may be premature. I have little doubt without Paisley the FPC will not have anything like as high a profile but I do think there will continue to be support for their religious position for the forseeable future. Remember there are other churches which left the mainstream Protestant churches in the 1950s and 1960s which continue to exist.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 12:46 PMYou missed this Gonzo, from the Concerned FP’s website.
In light of the unanimity of Presbytery and in the interests of promoting the healing of sores opened over the past number of months all references to the issues involved have been removed from this site, and over the next few days we will be considering retiring completely.
Thank you to ALL who visited and contacted us, and thank you especially to the “Stormont Commission” - Ministers and Elders who gave up so much of their time over the past number of months to help bring about a resolution to the most immediate difficulties our church faced.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 12:49 PMI do know that Ivan Foster has been complaining about liberalising tendancies in the FPC and Paisley himself for some time.
Ivan Foster is doing what Paisley did 40 years ago.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 12:50 PM‘Also his party acheived over 26% of the vote in this years Assembley Elections. The biggest vote for Sinn Fein since the partition of Ireland in 1921.’
Lest we forget MacSwiney, Gerry presided over the 6.8% debacle in the recent Republic elections, not exactly enhanced by his inept public debating and controversial candidate choices. He’s been all but invisible since the assembly got up and running and the position of Big Ian’s sidekick has been stolen by Martin. The future for SF looks decidedly dead-endish. Would a quiet retirement in his luxurious second home not be a splendid idea?
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 12:52 PMComrade Stalin,
I have no doubt there are similarities between what Ivan Foster is doing and what Paisley did. There are, however, very big differences between any percieved liberalising in the FPC and the state of the Presbyterian church (and Methodist church and CoI) 40 years ago.
I do, however, suggest that announcing the imminent death of the FPC may be a little premature. As I said there are other churches which split from the mainstream at about the same time and continue to exist. I have no doubt that Paisley leaving will diminish the profile of the FPC in non fundamentalist circles but that does not mean they will vanish and it is a position I suspect some in the FPC would welcome.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 01:00 PMDawkins
I would like to agree with you except for one single fact - paisley and his followers made the lives of the People of Northern Ireland a misery while they pontificated their own narrow minded beliefs. A mix of spiritual superiority with political dogma damned thi splace to the wilderness of the troubles. some may go as far as saying the deaths of thousand were the reuslt of such dogmas. While the rest of us worked it oput years ago Paisley didn’t and i believe he conversion has more to do with him being First Minister than any real change in attitude or principle.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 01:07 PMCongratulations to Dr. Paisley, the FP presbytery and those FP’s in the forefront of opposition to recent political developments for finding a very suitable way to bring an equitable conclusion to the current impasse.
Reading between the lines of Slugger posts it sounds like the enemies of the FP church and the DUP have been severely disappointed by the magnanimity within FP/DUP circles!
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 01:31 PMThe spin coming out of the FPC is hilarious.
The truth is that none of the 200+ FP ministers at the meeting last night had the balls to table a motion to oust Paisley, but only a tiny handful had the balls to stand up and give him their support.
So the weasel outcome was to take no decision, and for him to stand aside gracefully at the end of the year.
It waits to be seen what the FP congregations will do when they discover that over 95% of their ministers orchestrated a “Night of the Long Knives”.
Paisley has more dignity than the rest of the FPC combined.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 02:33 PMFPC congregations are even more angry with Ian Paisley than their ministers - expect them to fully endorse the decision to get rid off him.
The spin by Paisley on this is a joke - he claims he is stepping aside to prevent a split - why did he not do this in the first place instead of forcing the issue last night?
This is a big humiliation for Big Ian and his ego - no doubt his money-grabbing family are comforting him and telling him he is a hero in Cyprus Avenue.
The reality is Paisley is now finished in the FPC - noone is afraid of him any more and he is a lame duck figure of authority until January. Thos eministers who vocally backed him lie Cairns, Douglas, Cooke, Beggs etc are also finished now within the FPC.
The younger ministers will now step forward and take the Church into the 21st Century on their historic standards.
On thing the press missed, among many others, is that Paisley’s church is one of the smallest now in the FPC and contains a few old dears and senile halfwits who are bused in to fill a few corners in the empty sanctuary each Sunday. He is a failed preacher and church leader!
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 03:49 PMSam Hanna,
I am not a Free Presbyterian (not yet anyway, we keep considering joining but not actually doing it).
I do not know about the internal politics. I can agree that these events may well be humilitating for Paisley. I agree that Paisley has sold out politically and behaved hipocritically and dishonestly.
I think it is only fair, however, to say that he has been a good preacher of the gospel and some of his contributions on theology are not bad (I am told the commentary on Corinthians is very good though I have not read it).
Whilst it is fine to denounce his political sell out Paisley has preached the gospel pretty consistently. In terms of his church being small, well maybe there are issues about him being to busy etc. but we should not regard the sucess of a minister in the size of his congregation. I attended a church for 2 years which usually had only about a dozen to twenty people every Sunday morning but the minister was excellent.
As to the church moving forwards I hope they do indeed exactly as you suggest.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 04:13 PMWon’t the younger ministers have to drag the Free Ps through the 19th and 20th centuries first before they hit the 21st?
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 05:36 PMGonzo,
No, and in case to you missed the memo, the Biblical truths that are taught in the FPX go back further than the 19th century.
Comrade Stalin.
No, I wasn’t! I was never in. Try and stay with the debate if you can. Paisley is a busted flush and despite the pathetic spin coming from his handmaidens, the FPC did what was right in removing the most senior figure in their Church. It’s excellent news. Now, all that we need is Poots booted out, McCrea shown the door, and who knows, a corner may be turned.
Sam Hanna - well said.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 05:49 PMTurgon “sold out politically,behaved hypocritically and dishonestly” then you say his theological works are good.
Have you ever seen a true man of God with the above traits?
Your description of Paisley though is quite accurate.
Posted by on Sep 08, 2007 @ 06:45 PM
