Thursday, November 08, 2007
FIFA float idea
FIFA have an….unusual suggestion in the ongoing who can play for what team saga. The Newsletter don’t like it one bit (no link at 2:20). Neither do the blogging fans. As ever however, the most thoughtful and interesting comment comes from Beano, who suggests that the compromise would actually create two sectarianised Irish teams. Presumably he is also being making himself look “small minded” according to the the Irish News editorial this morning.
Michael Shilliday @ 12:12 PM
Are you sure that four pages coverage for a simple suggestion by FIFA that players should be allowed to pick what team they play for isn’t a little excessive even for the News Letter?!?!
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 01:30 PMMight want to add possible legal challenge:
“Gibson’s uncle, Paul McLaughlin, a former footballer himself and now a coach, said Fifa may have acted now because other players were ready to force the issue through the courts.”
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/northwest-edition/daily/article3140117.ece
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 01:36 PMAn excellent piece from Beano, not least in highlighting the irony of the FAI’s defensive action 50 years ago in shutting off the capacity of the IFA to pick players from the south. A staggering flip flip, even allowing for the time frame.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 01:37 PMSurely each individual should have the choice to play for what ever time they choose. After all the choice of dual citizenship is enshrined within the GFA.
I believe if some one makes the effort to obtain a particular national passport then he /she must see himself/herself as a citizen of that country.
So if you have gone through the process of obtaining an Irish passport then your Irish and able to play for Ireland.
Now the problem starts seeing that Northern Ireland is recognised by the British Government only as a region and has never in reality been recognised by the British Government as a legitimate country the IFA need to be careful about where this argument could be taking them.
I firmly believe that a persons passport is the legal document recognised world wide that establishes a persons natioanality.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 01:42 PMMichael
I’d wondered where you’d gone too after your last spectacularly presumptious (although you weren’t alone in the ‘counting your chickens’ stakes) thread on this topic. If you’re going to quote the Irish News at least do so in it’s proper context:
“The FIFA ruling…left the IFA looking small-minded as a result of a lose-lose intervention”.
At the risk of upsetting Beano, the GAWA’s Ghandi, I would suggest the the most thoughtful and interesting comment came from the previous Irish News editorial on the subject:
“The IFA should concentrate on those players who want to play for Northern Ireland”Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 01:46 PMctb,
Of course it does. And in most places, that’s as far as it goes. Only here its not quite that simple.
Fifa’s ‘Ireland’ has been a 26 county team (regardless of natural loyalities of northern supporters). A decision to tie it to nationality would, de jure, establish it as an all island team.
That has (unintended?) consquences for the IFA, which are ably sketched out by Beano.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 01:56 PMYes, I think the “most thoughtful” comment Why not go the whole hog and allow all 4 British teams to pick from all over the United Kingdom? It makes as much sense. is a peach.
It makes as much sense for an English man who has never set foot in Ireland to play for the Irish squad as it does for an Irishman, born in Ireland? That doesn’t sound at all like a blinkered, unionist view.
However I’m sure to Mr. Shilliday that Beano’s is a most thoughtful analysis, given the formers tendency to get ripped to shreds every time he posts, usually down to a lack of the thought he so admires in others. Well done Michael, at least with this type of thread someone should agree with you.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 01:57 PMnmc,
Just a tad too keen to connect with the man, rather than debate an argument?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:03 PM” A staggering flip flip, even allowing for the time frame.”
Methusalah, you must spend your whole life in staggerdom ;)
Come on, it’s been over two generations and the GFA is now accepted by virtually all on the island. Given the unique constitutional position of Northern Ireland with regards its ceding to the Republic and the official recognition that those born in the north are entitled to be full Irish citizens from birth as a consequence of that constitutional position, it is logical that Irish citizens born in the north are eligible to play for the RoI team.
Never mind the fact that the best way to get an Irish person to do/want something is to tell him he can’t do/have it. People who never had an interest in X their whole lives will be up out of the armchair on a rain sodden day to protest their desire to do X as soon as you tell them they can’t. The IFA and Unionism are being very foolish to fight this as they are and all they will acheive is the (further) alienation of the Nationalist community and the rollback of the success of their outreach program - as evidenced by comments on this site.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:04 PM“Fifa’s ‘Ireland’ has been a 26 county team (regardless of natural loyalities of northern supporters). A decision to tie it to nationality would, de jure, establish it as an all island team.
That has (unintended?) consquences for the IFA, which are ably sketched out by Beano. “
First, this isn’t new - I lived with a girl whose brother (Henry McStay) switched from NI to the Republic underage teams. 2004 I think.
Second, if this results in the the IFA becoming a Unionist team in terms of players as well as support then it is their own fault. They get first shot at Nationalist players and they can modify they setup to make as appealing to whoever they like. nd taht goes double if they could pick anyone with an Irish passport.
Third, unintended consequences for the IFA is irrelevant to whether northern-based Irish citizens should be eligible for the football team or not.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:07 PMWhat infuriates unionists, and leads them to see the shared future as a Nationalist agenda (see Liam Clarke’s bizarre column in todays NL) is the willingness of Nationalists to take it and leave it. A shares future means that FIFA’s idea cannot work, it will sectarianise the two Irish teams beyond the point at which they are now, and drive further wedges. This idea breaks all the rules used to now, sets hugely dangerous precedent, and above all, makes no logical sense.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:10 PMMick,
FIFA’s ‘Ireland’ has been a 26 county team (regardless of natural loyalities of northern supporters). A decision to tie it to nationality would, de jure, establish it as an all island team.But the team is already tied to nationality and the current FIFA situation (the exact same one as outlined in October 2006) firmly states that.
What is changing here is the number of northerners exercising their nationality “choice” and by their actions moving the Republic in the direction of being an all island team.
Naturally the IFA want to prevent this process but it would be incorrect to think that FIFA and its suggestion are creating a situation where an all-island team is being formed, they are reacting to one.The IFA should have seen this one coming down the line 10 years ago and at the very latest five years ago when they saw your average northerner could apply for an Irish passport in his local post office.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:10 PMI totally agree, it is logical. But Beano has introduced important context that I don’t think people should just try to ‘wish’ out of the problem.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:11 PM“It makes as much sense for an English man who has never set foot in Ireland to play for the Irish squad as it does for an Irishman, born in Ireland?”
nmc - I call Straw Men. That is not the argument I was making. Your comparison is also inconsistent in assuming the Englishman has never set foot in Northern Ireland. If you wanted to argue with my actual point instead of one you decided to attribute to me, the argument would run something along the lines of:
“It makes as much sense for an English man who has never set foot in Northern Ireland to play for the Northern Irish squad as it does for an Irishman, born in Northern Ireland [who has never set foot in the Republic of Ireland - let’s keep this fair] to play for the Republic of Ireland?”
I think that’s a perfectly defensible statement.
Oh and there is no one “Irish squad”. There are two.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:14 PMBeano,
the UK situation has no bearing on this discussion regarding FIFA eligibility as it came about via an internal agreement between the four home associations.Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:21 PMIn which case George, I doubt there is anything the IFA could have done about it. I sensed a shift in attitude in the early eighties amongst some young nationalists, although they didn’t start supporting the Republic in numbers till 1988.
As for an all island team, that’s where Beano’s point that nmc mentions comes in. It is still ‘de facto’ a 26 county team that northerners can opt into through the nationality rule.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:22 PM“I totally agree, it is logical. But Beano has introduced important context that I don’t think people should just try to ‘wish’ out of the problem. “
If my nationality is inconvenient for the IFA, that isn’t my fault. It’s up to them to convince me to make a different choice. It doe snot mean my choice should be restricted to suit them.
beano
““It makes as much sense for an English man who has never set foot in Northern Ireland to play for the Northern Irish squad as it does for an Irishman, born in Northern Ireland [who has never set foot in the Republic of Ireland - let’s keep this fair] to play for the Republic of Ireland?”
I think that’s a perfectly defensible statement. “
Only to Unionists, who are apparently autistic to history and current constitutional arrangements.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:23 PMBest to say what you mean so the rest of us ‘thickos’ can understand what you mean ken, rather than using mildly offensive medical terms to make your point.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:31 PMThe IFA should have seen this one coming down the line 10 years ago and at the very latest five years ago when they saw your average northerner could apply for an Irish passport in his local post office.
To be fair I think they did, George. I recall David Bowen, then of the IFA, stating that the automatic right of Northern-born people being eligible for an Irish passport ‘needed to be looked at’. Obviously there has not been a huge increase in the sophistication of the IFA’s thinking in the intervening years.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:31 PMMick,
or if you are sitting on the other side of the fence, the Republic of Ireland is on the way to becoming a de facto all-island team that northerners (and soon southerners if the proposal is passed) can opt out of.If it comes to pass in five years that pretty well all nationalists support (and those who have the talent declare for) the Republic of Ireland, then it will be a de facto all-island team.
Note: This is not to say it is a team representative of the whole island.
The question then is what does your talented young lad from the “other” tradition do?
Does he stick with a much depleted Northern Ireland or does he too take up the ROI option so he has a more realistic chance of playing in a World Cup?
We could be witnessing the demise of Northern Ireland as a competitive force in football (they are competitive now) if half the population moves its support permanently to the Republic.
A degree of movement has been going on since the 80s as you point out. But FIFA can’t and won’t stop this happening. It is for the IFA to achieve this rather difficult feat.
Dec,
cheers for that. Bowen was ahead of game.Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:35 PMGeorge, I appreciate that the agreement made in 1993 doesn’t have any legal effects on the FAI, my point was simply that it is a sensible solution to a similar problem.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:37 PMMichael,
“A shares future means that FIFA’s idea cannot work, it will sectarianise the two Irish teams beyond the point at which they are now, and drive further wedges. “
A shared future means Nationalists not getting the shaft in the six counties like they did from 1922 to 1972. It does not mean the buying off of Nationalist aspirations to re-unification.
Nationalists don’t give a tinkers curse for NI, never have, never will. We want a united 32 county Republic. We will work to acheive re-unification non-violently.
You are off your rocker if you imagine the current situation is anything other than a temporary compromise for Nationalists. We recognise that it will take Unionism sometime to get comfortable with re-unification, that a large swathe never will and we just have to wait until they age out of the population. This whole “making NI work” strategy coming from Unionism does not resonate with Nationalists - Unionism had its chance to make NI work in the first fifty years of the state and it failed, that bird has flown and we are not interested. Our future is re-unification and nothing less will satisfy.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:39 PM“Best to say what you mean so the rest of us ‘thickos’ can understand what you mean ken, rather than using mildly offensive medical terms to make your point.”
I should think it is crystal clear that what I mean is that anyone with a passing interest in either history or the political situation here would see why comparing an Irish citizen in the North with an Englishman is not the same thing.
I should hope you understood the first bit, which was actually directed at you.
And - didn’t you say last week that, ach sure, most footballers pick on the basis of football rather than identity anyway? Odd how the opinion changes when the wind switches and goes against the IFA a bit.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:40 PMGeorge,
That’s a nice line in polemic, but with exceptin of the candystripes the IFA still has 100% the northern game.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:46 PM“comparing an Irish citizen in the North with an Englishman is not the same thing”
That’s your view.
Let’s try another analogy then. In the event that the FAI take over responsibility for football throughout Ireland, many of these folk demand the right to play for Scotland (or one of the other British associations).
In this instance, everyone in Northern Ireland will be British citizens born outside the jurisdiction of any of the three remaining British associations. They will therefore be eligible to choose which one to play for and, as there are folk in Northern Ireland who, for whatever reason, feel more Scottish than Irish, they will have an equally valid case. Mass “poaching” of (Northern) Irish talent by the FA, SFA and FAW ensues. You don’t think the FAI as the all-Ireland football authority should try and prevent this?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2007 @ 02:47 PM
