Monday, April 07, 2008

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1. Pete,

   While I’d probably be one of the ‘some’ referenced above, I think a serious documentary should go beyond an unnamed ‘some’. We may as well have ‘dogs on the street’ quoted as evidence.

   Who says it? How large is that view? Who rejects it?

   Maybe I shouldn’t expect that kind of detail from an English audience focused programme?

   Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 09:04 PM

2. peteb
   did you miss the 1hr programme on Jonathon Powell tonite at 7.pm BBC2?

   The Undercover Diplomat
   Jonathan Powell reveals his unique political role in the Northern Ireland peace process, where he acted in a capacity known to no-one in the Government other than Tony Blair. He reflects on his secret negotiations with Sinn Fein and his personal relationships with the central figures involved in the Good Friday agreement.

   Was it shown in NI?

   Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 09:10 PM

3. A good programme.

   I write from north Ballymena where I grew up and spend a lot of my time. The programme reflects my understanding of what has happened here.

   However when the programme said the town centre was divided at a particular point (Broadway) that really only relates to these teenagers who hang around in gangs in terms of territory for going around in football shirts.

   For normal daytime business going to coffee shops etc (and me certainly) this division isn’t there; I am nearly always in the so-called Catholic part and actually its where the real heart of the town is now. The programme did point this out but I think the casual viewer might be left with the impression of greater division than there is. Though in terms of going out at night for teenage males it would be more important.

   It was a good programme which reminds us of the abnnormality of the division here and of the desirability of integration steps and that the politicians aren’t doing any investment now to integrate the society in the future.

   Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 09:12 PM

4. “Maybe I shouldn’t expect that kind of detail from an English audience focused programme? “

   The people who were critical of the politicians were the two protestants from Ballymena (one of whom had numerous tatoos) as well as some of the people interviewed in Derry. I can’t remember if Pete Shirlow and Newton Emerson mentioned this point but they may have.

   Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 09:16 PM

5. Mark

   I’m fairly certain the Alliance Party would fit into that category too. ;o)

   percy

   “Was it shown in NI?” Yes.

   slug

   “For normal daytime business going to coffee shops etc (and me certainly) this division isn’t there; I am nearly always in the so-called Catholic part and actually its where the real heart of the town is now. The programme did point this out but I think the casual viewer might be left with the impression of greater division than there is. Though in terms of going out at night for teenage males it would be more important.”

   Good point.

   And one that the programme didn’t really make forcefully enough.

   Although the accompanying article does point out

   In Ballymena there are no physical barriers between opposing factions - but the ones in their heads are all that’s needed.

   Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 09:20 PM

6. Interesting - some of the stats - 30,000 community workers - astonishing number. It’s easy to compare Leisure centres on the Falls Road and the Shankill Road however - there must be places were the barriers are fading - or at least not as pronounced. Is the sectarian bus stop thing really true?

   Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 09:47 PM

7. Newton Emerson said on Panorama that he believes new housing estates were a glimmer of hope in the battle against segregation.
   It looked like he was speaking in Glengormley which frankly is a terrible example. Mayfield and basically the whole of the Hightown Road are exclusively Catholic as is basically every recently laid brick between the fork in the road in Glengormley and the Whitewell Road.
   He just needed to be in Mallusk Primary School at the last election and see the mass of Sinn Fein votes from the Hightown Road to see that segregation is well and truly in place, even in ostensibly middle class areas.

   Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 09:57 PM

8. I correct myself - my evidence for my last post comes from anecdotal evidence of the opening of the boxes and the early tallys. But my point stands - despite being relatively wealthy, for example having some of the highest house prices in Northern Ireland outside of the Belfast City Council area, Glengormley is a massively more sectarian place than it was in, for example, 1985.

   Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 10:00 PM

9. Norton - is that just a consequence of the growing “Catholic” population ? Or is there visible evidence of territory claiming in these areas?

   Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 10:01 PM

10. Dewi - there is a great deal more territorial marking than there would have been twenty five years ago. In the past two or three years, I have noted union flags and GAA flags posted on roads where there would have been none in 1983. Neither are particularly offensive to me per se but it goes some way to reinforcing the point I am trying to make.
    Back then, Protestants and Catholics freely lived among each other in both ends of Glengormley whereas now that seems to be much less the case. The Elmfield/Collinbridge/Hightown areas are practically exclusively Catholic while Swanston, Sandyknowes, Carnmoney Road, and Ballyhenry Roads are quite significantly Protestant.
    There are certainly more young middle-class Catholics and not simply because working-class-done-goods from north Belfast have moved there.
    One of the things that is rarely mentioned in all these discussions about sectarianism and demographics is the number of young middle-class Protestants who would not dream of going to QUB or UUJ because of the perceived nationalist dominance and go instead to universities in GB, particularly in Scotland, and, long after they have graduated, only ever come back to Northern Ireland to see their family.

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 10:21 PM

11. If we’re discussing the cost of sectarianism and political strife, it would be interesting to compare what percentage of its graduates the southern state manages to retain compared with the percentage of graduates from Northern Ireland who working here five years after they get letters after their name. I do not buy the idea that the difference is only because of the contrast in the respective economies. It is also because of the lingering scent of sectarianism that pervades our northern nostrils.

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 10:26 PM

12. Norton wrote:  One of the things that is rarely mentioned in all these discussions about sectarianism and demographics is the number of young middle-class Protestants who would not dream of going to QUB or UUJ because of the perceived nationalist dominance and go instead to universities in GB, particularly in Scotland, and, long after they have graduated, only ever come back to Northern Ireland to see their family.

    There was a study done recently on this.  I can’t remember which of the universities undertook it - Queen’s perhaps. 

    I know only from my own experience that only six lads stayed in NI for University purposes from my leaving year in 1990.  Now, I have discovered facebook - and would you believe, it’s as good a place as any to start - NONE of the lads who I’ve found/got in touch with me returned here.  And now that for some of them, parents have long since shuffled off this mortal coil, there isn’t even that reason to return. 

    It’s easy to say “would you blame them?”.  But while some may jump for joy at this exodus of people from a P/U/L background, what chance does this region (and indeed the whole island) have, I say, if we lose the best and brightest to the Mainland? 

    By the way, Norton, just an observation - we weren’t all middle class.  This transcended social class.  Good post, btw.

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 10:39 PM

13. “I have noted union flags and GAA flags posted on roads where there would have been none in 1983.”

    Yep. Take all the territorial markers down from the public lampposts, they are often just there to scare us.  Surely the security budget could stretch to one roving cherrypicker?

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 10:42 PM

14. aquifer - I would be quite content to be the driver. Mind you, I think I’d need to be surrounded by a pane of popemobile proportions.

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 10:54 PM

15. Newton
    Where was that housing development?

    Glengormley, Waringstown, Crossgar.

    Wonder why it wasn’t named.

    Good point about the “community worker” empire, building up alongside the civil service. Shit pensions though, i imagine.

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 11:01 PM

16. What chance does this region (and indeed the whole island) have, I say, if we lose the best and brightest to the Mainland?

    Well for those who have a non resident mainland, the problem is that mainlands always reserve to themselves the best jobs and industries etc. As our contributor Turgon has pointed out, a degree from Oxford and Cambridge sets you up for life: one from QUB dooms you to relative obscurity in this provincial backwater.

    The Irish Republic was set up to counter this tendency, and has partially succeeded: it would be an exaggeration to say no Irish people from Southern regions make their way to England, but the number is decreasing, and many these days are making their way back.

    Of course, when Dublin finally becomes the centre of attraction, it will take the brightest and best from Belfast still, but hopefully by then communications will have improved to the extent that daily commuting will be possible.

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 11:03 PM

17. The Raven - I take your correction with grace. However, regrettable as it is, I understand that the proportion of working class Protestants going to university is pitifully low. And, I feel quite confident in saying that children of graduates are more likely to be graduates than those of non-graduates. Assuming that many of the Protestant graduates have left these shores, where is the next generation coming from?
    It seems quite clear to me that when Sinn Fein successfully gaelicized the SU at QUB it was part of a long-term strategic plot rather than just a ploy to wind up unionists. More fool them. There’s a very strong argument to say that the economic divergence of north and south, which in my opinion looks set to be the norm for generations, actually makes Irish unity less likely.
    It is easier for the British to cut loose an economically prosperous Northern Ireland and more palatable for Southerners to agree to reunification. As it is, the British have no choice other than to keep paying for the economic basket case of western Europe while Southerners steer well clear of giving up much more than a small percentage of the money from the National Development Plan.

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 11:11 PM

18. Pete - the program DID focus slightly unduly on the experiences of football-shirt wearing youths in Ballymena. However, it would also be fair to say that many of these youths were little more than toddlers when the GFA was signed and therefore it may be reasonable to expect that we would be a little further down the road in how they would get on with their mirror image from the other community. Therefore while I feel the programme could perhaps have couched that more explicitly, it was worth pointing out to UK audiences that some communities, identifiable by their youths, have made little progress - despite all their community workers :-)

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 11:20 PM

19. Someone should point me in the direction of some figures supporting this influx of returning migrants that Paddy Reilly mentions...I always thought it was just a tad overstated (by the way, that isn’t a pop at someone - I’d genuinely love to see some figures on this)

    By the way, I believe that Derry Shitty Council undertook, or is undertaking a diaspora project.  One wonders at what success, if any, it will have.  It will certainly be the most cross-community project they’ve undertaken (he jibed with tongue requiring surgical removal from cheek).

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 11:41 PM

20. PETE YOUR QUOTE CAN BE JUST AS VALID WITH ONLY MINOR EDITING

    So how come, 90 years after PARTITION, that in some parts of Northern Ireland the sectarian mindsets seem as strong as ever?  It is a sobering reality that there are more physical barriers, or so-called peace walls, between communities today than there were 90 years ago.  Some are now blaming the very political settlement that brought an end to THE WAR OF INDEPENDENCE.  They see the Stormont assembly as a sectarian INSTITUTION that doesn’t lessen sectarian divisions so much as it consolidates sectarian divisions.  If that analysis is correct, it may be a long time yet (NEVER) before NORTHERN IRELAND WORKS

    Posted by  on Apr 07, 2008 @ 11:59 PM

21. Damn norton you almost had me fooled into thinking you were a reasonable and inteligent poster but you just had to keep talking

    Posted by  on Apr 08, 2008 @ 02:48 AM

22. Bastids at the Beeb make Panorama available on the web only in the UK (or so they say, an IP in the ROI isn’t kosher for them?).  Is there any way to post it in here?  Ben

    Posted by  on Apr 08, 2008 @ 04:38 AM

23. Raven

    “I know only from my own experience that only six lads stayed in NI for University purposes from my leaving year in 1990.  Now, I have discovered facebook - and would you believe, it’s as good a place as any to start - NONE of the lads who I’ve found/got in touch with me returned here.  And now that for some of them, parents have long since shuffled off this mortal coil, there isn’t even that reason to return”

    1990 was 18 years ago and I suspect that some of these points are not as strong today. The Students Union is more neutral looking and QUB does not appear “nationalist dominated”. I have been looking at the UCAS numbers. These show a declining interest in Scotland for people applying to University though England is still popular. I suspect that the NI universities are not so unattractive to protestants now. However for many going to university in GB just that bit more exciting than Belfast; its not all about the troubles).

    As for migration. Yes, there are lots of people going away to study but the total numbers over the last 8 years show more people coming from GB than leaving.

    From my personal experience there are a lot of people who left who come back and others who want to come back but the jobs are not too exciting here…

    All of this suggests that economics is at least important as the wierd nature of society here.

    Posted by  on Apr 08, 2008 @ 08:14 AM

24. Norton

    One of the things that is rarely mentioned in all these discussions about sectarianism and demographics is the number of young middle-class Protestants who would not dream of going to QUB or UUJ because of the perceived nationalist dominance and go instead to universities in GB, particularly in Scotland, and, long after they have graduated, only ever come back to Northern Ireland to see their family.

    I agree with pretty much every single one of your points. I am one of these university ex-pats you speak about and I’m far from unique - I would say that in my school of year of about 150 around 90, or more, currently live across the water. I live in Edinburgh and the place is practically swarming with Northern Irish, not all Protestant mind you. Why would anyone educated in a British University with half a brain want to come back to the increasingly sectarian cesspit of NI to raise their children or go and work in the dizzy heights of the civil service?

    This is an issue that Unionist politicians have been either too lazy, naive or plain stupid to want to deal with and if a UI is eventually decided by raw demographics alone then for me this will be the prime reason. If and when a UI does come it will be no better than the status quo, you’ll still have entrenched divisions - only the Irish government will have to pick up the tab. However beefore we even get there I believe that if the intolerance and intransigence continues at its current pace we’ll probably have another bout of mass civil conflict. IMO NI is a much more bigotted place than it was 10 years ago.

    Posted by  on Apr 08, 2008 @ 08:15 AM

25. I take strong issue with the asertion that Glengormley is a more sectarian area than in 1985, as a life-long resident i have seen the nationalist population grow and certain areas greening but community relations are quite good, except in the Harmin Estate where Loyalist ethnic cleansing has soured the once good estate.

    Posted by  on Apr 08, 2008 @ 08:45 AM
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