Monday, July 30, 2007
Difference of opinion in Derry..
..as might have been suggested previously.. where representatives of those republican micro-organisations are being openly critical of Sinn Féin - in this case on the end of Operation Banner.
Pete Baker @ 06:45 PM
Interesting narrative from Gerry Kelly. He doesn’t seem to notice the uncanny coincidence of timing between the end of PIRA’s murder campaign and the de-militarisation of NI - it is almost like PIRA’s murder campaign had nothing to do with the army being ‘on the streets’ in the first place. Instead, he depicts the republican murder gangs as nobly defending the people from state oppression. Nor is there anything in his narrative about the activities of his murder gang bringing retaliation upon the nationalist community from loyalist murder gangs or his murder gangs’ oppression of the nationalist community. Perhaps if Gerry pondered a little harder, he might even notice that the peace he speaks of is simply an absence of the violence he and his ilk unleashed upon society for no purpose beyond serving their own power and self-enrichment.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 08:14 PMYou might be advised to cast your mind back to 1969 and the reason the British Army came to Belfast. It wasn’t because of the IRA’s murder campaign but to counter a unionist pogrom of nationalist areas. The pogrom, led by unionist politicians, was aided by rampaging B Specials and a blind eye to the whole proceedings was provided by the helpful chaps in the RUC.
The British Army were greeted as saviours on the streets by nationalists - they were feted with cups of tea etc. Shortly however they had outstayed their welcome thanks to their increasing support for the Stormont regime and involvement in events such as the Falls Curfew, Internment, Bloody Sunday....
Just thought you might appreciate the missing link in your chronology....
Or perhaps not....
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 08:32 PMRather a limited look at 1969.
There were 3,000 full time coppers - of whom 1,700 needed hospital treatment for injuries received in 1969. Contrast that to 10,000 coppers brought in to control one demo in Grosvenor square in London that year.
There wasn’t a hope in hell of them controlling the mayhem - and let’s also remember that members of the nationalist population were out on the riot themselves quite often, attacking police stations and actively choosing to add to the chaos.
ALL sides were at fault.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 08:49 PMThe Dubliner
“bringing retaliation upon the nationalist community from loyalist murder gangs”
You should get your UDA/UVF/LVF membership form in NOW. That’s exactly the same shite that they come out with.
So the fact that the “loyalist” murder gangs brutally tortured and murdered hundreds of innocent Catholic men women and children is OK then is it?
I am not a Sinn Fein voter or supporter and have never supported the IRA. However, many “loyalists” were happy when Catholics didn’t have a vote and/or jobs, housing etc.
When the Civil Rights movement came along, they reacted to decent human rights being given to Catholics by burning them out of their houses etc.
My family were burnt out by a “loyalist” hate mob (aided by the impartial RUC) despite the fact that
my Dad is Protestant and no-one in our house had any political affiliations whatsoever.All violence is wrong as far as I’m concerned.
Most of the stuff you post on this site is ill-informed pretentious crap from someone who clearly never suffered through the realities of the situation.
I wouldn’t defend any of the violent acts of any of the terrorist groups in NI. Frankly, I find your attempt to excuse the blatent sectarian murder camapign of “loyalist” terrorists sickening. I’m sure the relatives of the hundreds of innocent victims (chosen for the ‘crime’ of being Catholic)would agree.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 08:49 PMBut is it really called “Derry”? Perhaps someone in the know could advise…
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 08:59 PMDubliner,
“He doesn’t seem to notice the uncanny coincidence of timing between the end of PIRA’s murder campaign and the de-militarisation of NI”
The demilitarisation of the unoccupied territories (ROI) happened in similar cirumstances.
It just depends on whether you think the GFA or the Treaty were legitmate/worth the fight.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 09:01 PM“So the fact that the “loyalist” murder gangs brutally tortured and murdered hundreds of innocent Catholic men women and children is OK then is it? “
Bit of an OTT response Billy. He wasn’t saying that retaliations were right or justified.
They happened.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 09:06 PMYep there is a real danger that the Gerries get to re-write history because the rest of us are too busy getting the life we missed in the seventies eighties nineties etc.
The Provo campaign was bound to fail in its own republican terms. It was a self-indulgent narcissistic aberration, an awful bloody mistake that was politically opposed by most of their own community until it was destined to stop. John Hume did not just help them see sense. He rescued irish nationalism itself from a disgraceful oblivion and cultural defeat.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 09:19 PMto be honest that fact that anyone is trying to justify either loyalist or republican murder campiagns i find quite shocking,
even if u dont agree it was the provos that got the British Army here, they sure as hell where the reason they stuck around for 30 years! able to cause so much uprest and violence against the people.
the iras campiagn did nothing for the people of Ireland and in fact tooks us futhur away from a united nation! and the loyalists were twice as bad, because they never tried to hid the fact that they were biots!
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 09:22 PMI fully endorse the comments made by Mr. Walsh of Republican Sinn Féin and the Republican Prisoners’ Action Group. The fact is that the total capitulation of the Provos was what led to a few British Crown Forces leaving Ireland. They can return at a whim, and will when they need to.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 09:35 PMSean
“They can return at a whim, and will when they need to”
If there are any left.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/20/ntroops121.xmlAccording to Gen Dannett, the cupboard is bare
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/07/20/ntroops121big.jpgPosted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 09:41 PMThe British Army were greeted as saviours on the streets by nationalists - they were feted with cups of tea etc. Shortly however they had outstayed their welcome thanks to their increasing support for the Stormont regime and involvement in events such as the Falls Curfew, Internment, Bloody Sunday....
Parellels with the current situation in Iraq, Catholic and Protestant replaced by Shite and Sunny.
Lets hope it does not take nearly Four Decades to resolve.
The Time to Go has arrived so
“Head North, and Home”O’h and this applies to Iraq as well.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 09:47 PMCuchulainn
how do you feel about the Michael Collins ‘murder’ campaign?
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 10:12 PMMy view is that life should not be taken unless there is no choice, tho not as black and white as that. The Irish war of independence became acceptable because it has been classified as a “war”, and from my study of the period, change wouldnt have come from any other way.
it was also a different political time, and a totally different IRA.
the ira of the 60s onwards had a choice not to spill blood, but they went ahead anyway, they then had 3 chances to stop, sunningdale, anglo-irish, good-friday, and each time went on with killing innocent people, finally settling for a different named sunningdale. what they done was murder, not war. John Hume preached for 30 years that the only way for a united ireland was by peaceful means. something they only caught onto now.
dnt try to say the old IRA are anything like the PIRA
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 10:38 PMjust to add another point, the first chance Collins got at getting a real deal with the british, he took. when faced with a choice he signed an agreement that meant peace, even though he knew hed be murdered for it, hence the “iv sign my own death warrent” comment.
did the PIRA do the same, NO! they rejected every chance of peace untill 2006. 36 years after they started.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 10:46 PMCruimh
I don’t think my response was OTT.
I unreservedly condemn violence from ANY source and, in all fairness, I think you also are consistent in that regard.
It is this myth that “loyalist” scum terrorists like to perpetuate that their violence was reactive.
People like Wright, Fulton, McMichael, Bingham, Murphy, Gregg etc simply had a pathological hatred of Catholics. A Protestant RUC officer once remarked that he had never met anyone who had such a passionate hatred of all Catholics as John Gregg.
There is never any excuse for violence. Dubliner seemed to be saying quite clearly that these “loyalist” scum only killed innocent Catholics because of the IRA - I’m afraid that’s called moral equivalence.
What’s next on his list? That the LVF had some justification for killing Michael McGoldrick because those nasty Catholics objected to an OO parade.
There are many instances of easy target Catholics being murdered by “loyalist” thugs who weren’t even part of a terrorist organisation.
I know some of the relatives personally and have seen their grief at first hand.
It really riles me that someone who has no first hand experience likes to pontificate and infer that these murdering scumbags had some sort of moral justification.
Like I said, none of these groups have any mortal justification for their murderous activities.
I may have my faults but at least I’m consistent which is more than I can say for Dubliner.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 10:57 PMBilly - I know you “unreservedly condemn violence from ANY source and I have a lot of respect for you. But I don’t think Dubliner was blaming the IRA for the loyalist violence.
Posted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 11:12 PMLads,
Us Oirish fighting amongst ourselves again, just like those stupid Arabs! Empires never ever change their tune - divide and conquer! Your masters will be so happy with you - top of the class! If you could learn one new thing tonight though, let it be to use the correct terminology. In any conflict it is the oppressors and invaders who are the murderers, (aka the British Army, Police and government) and it is the resistance fighters who are the real soldiers, (aka IRA). Squabling over detail merely misses the point. So when you hear of Arabs blowing each other to bits with all the blood curdling pictures and propaganda, keep asking who is responsible, what monster provoked this. The answer of course is a monster living very close to you. The same monster which, as the occasion demanded, provoked murder and terror the world over, in Ireland, India, Asia, Africa and America. Slán ‘is go neirí libh. BFPosted by on Jul 30, 2007 @ 11:55 PMConsidering the role of Scapatici, Donaldson, their (up to now) anonymous protectors & O’Callaghan inter alia the Adams family (like loyalist death squads) were so heavily penetrated that the british really had our 2 communities running around blaming each other on atrocities mainly committed by MI5 agents.
We can never compare Adams to an Intelligence Officer of Collin’s caliber as the brits succeeded in penetrating his outfit as much as Collins succeeded in penetrating theirs.
The more this plot behind our dirty war unfolds the more Adams looks like a hamfisted plonker.
Ironically it may be militant republicanism’s greatest contemporary iconoclast Michael McDowell who actually woke them up to Adams’ incompetence on Prime Time leading to that SF Dublin meltdown.
Hence many who now have no confidence in grizz see today’s events in an alternative light…
Posted by on Jul 31, 2007 @ 08:58 AMYou can’t solve a problem without knowing from were it stems- Adams and McGuinness/ Dumb and Dumber are part of the provies problems not the solution.
Thats why Brendan Hughes, John Kelly, Gerry McGeough (practically everyone hand picked as founding/top notch members to represent the provies on Peter Taylor’s “Provos” series)and more like Bernhard Fox aren’t on board with SF to pronounce in communion with Adams on today’s events.
Posted by on Jul 31, 2007 @ 09:05 AMI would hazard a guess that the majority of ex-mainstream republican activists now opposed to McGuinness/Adams are now actually pro ceasefire as opposed to the original situation were they were exclusively anti- peace process..
Posted by on Jul 31, 2007 @ 09:14 AM“Difference of opinion in Derry..”
Is that Ballinderry, Edenderry or Londonderry???
The official name of the city is Londonderry, and rightly so, so please refer to it as such instead of being lazy…
Posted by on Jul 31, 2007 @ 03:04 PM“Interesting narrative from Gerry Kelly. He doesn’t seem to notice the uncanny coincidence of timing between the end of PIRA’s murder campaign and the de-militarisation of NI - it is almost like PIRA’s murder campaign had nothing to do with the army being ‘on the streets’ in the first place. Instead, he depicts the republican murder gangs as nobly defending the people from state oppression. Nor is there anything in his narrative about the activities of his murder gang bringing retaliation upon the nationalist community from loyalist freedom fighters or his murder gangs’ oppression of the nationalist community. Perhaps if Gerry pondered a little harder, he might even notice that the peace he speaks of is simply an absence of the violence he and his ilk unleashed upon society for no purpose beyond serving their own power and self-enrichment.
Posted by The Dubliner on Jul 30, 2007 @ 09:14 PM
Very well put mate…
Posted by on Jul 31, 2007 @ 03:23 PMYou’re whistling in the dark, lads. Whatever happens next Sinn Fein have come in from the cold and the Orange State is gone forever. Even the British Police State which replaced it is being dismantled at last.
The reason why there’s no support for the Real IRA, CIRA and the rest is because nationalists can see the steady advance of republicanism.
There’s going to be a vacuum when Paisley goes. Who do you think will fill it?
Posted by on Jul 31, 2007 @ 06:31 PMI remember that other hairy terrorist, Saddam,having a victory parade for HIS Republican guard at the end of Gulf War One Lib and look what happened to him ;)
Posted by on Jul 31, 2007 @ 07:07 PM
