Tuesday, June 20, 2006
Defining “Victory”
Nationalists have reacted angrily to the Parades Commission decision on the Whiterock. Sean “Spike” Murray of the Springfield Residents Group said the decision was “immoral” outlined what the residents viewed as victories and compromises:
“There is the West Circular route which we would see as a victory for the nationalists over the unionists; Workman gates which we would see as a victory for unionists over the nationalists. Now our position is and has been for the past six years that the parade should be put through the Mackies (site). We would see it as a win/win situation for both communities.”
This position contains some revisionism as the parade route has changed before, moving further up the Springfield Road, so do these past nationalist “victories” not make Workman Avenue a “compromise”? The Parade Commission determination has merged two of the options with the vast bulk of the parade (93%) following the nationalist perceived “compromise”, is 93% not enough?
In broader terms on the use of rhetoric is defining particular outcomes as victory and implicitly a defeat for someone else wise? The selling of the last Agreement fell apart as each side claimed victory and as another deal edges closer is there a need to examine what language can be used to sell it without a process of upmanship?
The DUP meanwhile have embraced the terminology of sharing. The Orange Order has not yet given any formal response.
Fair Deal @ 10:05 AM
You people call yourselves grown men? You’re nutters. I have lived in several countries where this sort of thing would under no circumstances be tolerated.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:16 PMThe person who is above such pettiness is the true victor.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:17 PMThe question is will it be peaceful, or will there be any bother?
IMO it will be peaceful, despite the anger, the green shirts will be out in force, they can’t go letting anger from residents upset their plans for stormont.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:23 PMAs much as I dislike this, it *IS* a rational approach, albeit along the lines of Solomon offering to split the baby. The local OO folks can march the local street and those who aren’t stakeholders in the community get to go the long way around. If nobody is particularly happy, then it might just be a just solution.
That said, anyone care to wager on how badly this “split decision” works in reality land? Maybe a pool on how many days of rioting to follow and who receives the lion’s share of the blame? Tie-breaker being the number of sectarian bands prevented from marching due to their violation of the terms of the parade?
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:25 PMDC when was the last time you were on springfield road. As spike murray said on radio this morning, it is now 95% catholic nationalist. And they do not want this march. Would the londoners allow a white supremacist march from BNP thru a black borough of london?
No.
Walk somewhere else, stick to your own turf.
The last march in or near ardoyne went thru because it was marshalled heavily, and agreement reached between residents groups and OOs, but the people who lived there DID NOT WANT IT.
What is the issue here. The issue is stick to your own turf. Keep your feet on yer own street.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:30 PMAnd when we are forced out of our own streets? It is naive to assume that the OO alters its routes every once on a while to ensure the disruption of majority Catholic areas.
In many cases the demographic shift has altered the makeup of the parade area to an extent where protestants are now marginalised where once they were in the majority. Don’t underestimate the fear this causes among the protestant community and therefore the subsequent feeling that there is a need to reassert themselves accordingly.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:41 PMIt’s all very simple, as Councillor Balls explains. “Victory is when we force themmuns to accept what themmuns think we would never accept in the name of a weak and deceitful so-called compromise, except that what themmuns think we would never accept is actually what we want them to believe we would never accept although we would secretly be delighted, so they would accept it rather than be seen to be accepting what we want them to think we would want to be seen to accept but would secretly loathe. Real statesmanship, unlike the tangled web of deceit that Mr. Blair and Mr. Ahern spin, consists in never permitting themmuns to force you to be seen to disclose your actual interests.”
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:42 PMwell you know proud a lot of people have had to accept a lot of changes, and change is difficult and hard, but all of our peoples had to do it.
Up date your traditions to take in the demographic shift and stick to your own turf, that way we can have summers in peace. This decision is a reward for bad behaviour, £3million pounds of bad behaviour. Hugh Orde last year condemned the OOs by saying he saw them as we all did attacking their own police. This is a disgraceful decision. Even Diane Dodds isn’t satisfied with it.
This part of the springfield road is a nationalist area, so don’t walk where yer not wanted, and same applies for the tour of the north.
This decision is not good, since the commission now is stuffed its self full of orange men. Garvaghy road is a sure bet, there’ll be orange feet on that street this summer. Be very surprised if there is not.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:51 PMBrenda: “DC when was the last time you were on springfield road. As spike murray said on radio this morning, it is now 95% catholic nationalist. And they do not want this march. Would the londoners allow a white supremacist march from BNP thru a black borough of london? “
I did say I disliked it, didn’t I, Brenda? However, the price one pays for living in a Western democracy is that one occasionally must tolerate speech that one disagrees with. I am suprised that march has been allowed, given that which has gone on before. But is *HAS* been allowed. I would support any and all appropriate challenges. All I have said is that the decision was akin to Solomon’s offer to split the baby between the two mothers. No, there is the small problem that neither of the two “mothers” in this scenario really have the best interests at heart
As for a BNP march through a black borough in London, its not material to this discussion. We are not talking about London. That the British can be hypocritical should come as no shock. Likewise, I would like to think that the Irish can handle such matters as “Freedom of Speech.”
Ultimately, these conversations should not be over “victory,” as that makes the parade (or lack thereof) a triumph, which will only continue the problems. A reasonable accomodation, accompanied by a civil response or perhaps even non-violent civil disobedience, would be more productive.
*MY* main objection is that this scenario has the appearance of a small reward for the OO for last year’s violence, thus my cynical post. I worry that the entirely wrong lesson is being taught and that matters will get worse instead of better.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:52 PMThe question is will it be peaceful, or will there be any bother?
I reckon there will be plenty of disturbances over this one, it’s worth bearing in mind that
a) SF are probably now less popular in that particular part of town than ever before and
b) Not everyone in that part of town shares allegiance with SF or the RA, in fact a large number of people are in rival organisations, and an even larger number again are in none, and
c) Don’t take this the wrong way, but there are some nutters up in the West. I’m a Ballymena catholic, now living up there, and I reckon there are a lot of people who do not give a f%$# about SF or their aspirations, and wouldn’t think twice about starting murder.
(IMHO)
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:53 PMProud: “In many cases the demographic shift has altered the makeup of the parade area to an extent where protestants are now marginalised where once they were in the majority. Don’t underestimate the fear this causes among the protestant community and therefore the subsequent feeling that there is a need to reassert themselves accordingly. “
Any animal, be it reptile, mammal, social or political, that is incapable of adapting to its changing environment will eventually die. Do you really want this to come down to Darwin days?
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:57 PMmmc the green shirts will be out in force, of that I am confident. But they took a roasting in particular gerry kelly, when they marshalled thru the orange parade at the ardoyne shops.
If there is trouble it is the fault of the OO. make no bones about it. If you force yourselves on your neighbours and they do not want triumphalist orange marches outside their homes, would you expect a cup of tea and a card to say call again next year.
The OOs should be made to pay for all disturbances that comes from these sectarian marches.
Don’t go where you’re not wanted, even if the green shirts say you can. It doesn’t make for good relations.
keep yer feet on yer own street.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:59 PMAlex clearly hit the nail on the head there. the problem and may I suggest the solution lyies with themmuns, if only we could convince themmuns of the benefits of emigrarting to outer mongolia,and take blair bush adams and all the wee orange bigots with them,
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:04 PM‘a) SF are probably now less popular in that particular part of town than ever before’
That is not borne out by the recent Local Government elections, that part of West Belfast comes under the Lower Falls ward. That was the only ward in that election that returned a full house of candidates for one party, 5 SF councillors.‘Not everyone in that part of town shares allegiance with SF or the RA, in fact a large number of people are in rival organisations, and an even larger number again are in none,’
A large number? don’t make me laugh. What there are belonging to these organisations you wouldn’t send to the shop for a loaf.
‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but there are some nutters up in the West. I’m a Ballymena catholic, now living up there, and I reckon there are a lot of people who do not give a f%$# about SF or their aspirations, and wouldn’t think twice about starting murder.’I have no doubt that there is an element wanting to ‘start murder’, they shift their anti social behaviour from their neigbours front doors to the nearerst point of conflict, once it starts. Don’t try and dress that behaviour up as anything other than a wish to start trouble, it has nothing to do with parades and the O.O. 95% of young people in areas like Ardoyne heed the advice given to them and stay well clear of these situations.
Unfortunately when you mentioned being from Ballymena you kind of gave the game away.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:08 PM‘mmc the green shirts will be out in force, of that I am confident. But they took a roasting in particular gerry kelly, when they marshalled thru the orange parade at the ardoyne shops.’
As someone who was there in the capacity of a steward that is a lie. For your benefit I will repeat what i said to the Ballymena cowboy,‘I have no doubt that there is an element wanting to ‘start murder’, they shift their anti social behaviour from their neigbours front doors to the nearerst point of conflict, once it starts. Don’t try and dress that behaviour up as anything other than a wish to start trouble, it has nothing to do with parades and the O.O. 95% of young people in areas like Ardoyne heed the advice given to them and stay well clear of these situations.’
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:11 PMPat,
The last elections do paint a different picture, and in my saying that they are less popular in that particular part of town than ever before, I’m reflecting the opinion of many people who I have spoken to who are fed up with anti-social behaviour and the lack of policing of any kind, and who believe that SF are sellouts. This is however not substantiated by a source, it’s only what I’ve heard from ordinary people.
A large number? don’t make me laugh. What there are belonging to these organisations you wouldn’t send to the shop for a loaf.
As I am assuming is that. Between the IRPS the Continuities and any other organisations I would imagine they can get you as many loaves as you could wish for. I am not in possession of membership numbers, and I’m assuming neither do you?
Unfortunately when you mentioned being from Ballymena you kind of gave the game away.
Can you explain that comment?
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:17 PMA lie pat? Well then radio ulster must be very good at dessemminating lies, because they reported it. they interviewed a local business woman who did not want to be identified and also went into the local bookies and interviewed people there on the day the statement about the agreement was issued.
Just because you are a green shirt and fully paid up member of the provo police does not give you the rights to all local feelings.
Maybe the good people of ardoyne were afraid to voice their true opinions to the green shirts, but told them to radio ulster news.
I invite you to contact them and take up the matter with them, if you are so sure.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:19 PMnmc,
as stated the support for SF is easily quantifiable, unfortunately the people who you talk to are not.
You stated earlier that their were large number in other organisations, later you stated you are not in possession of the numbers in these rival organisations , which is it?
I wouldn’t send them to the shop for a loaf simply because they would probably be arrested.
Brenda,Radio Ulster stated that ‘Gerry Kelly in particular took a roasting’ can you provide a link to that. Well if an unidentified businesswoman and the punters of a bookies are your sole areas of proof then enough said.
The people of the area were widley consulted on the march. The people who actually live on the Crumlin Rd, Mountainview and the Dales supported the agreement. As were the people of Cranbrook, Farringdon and Velsheda, the streets that run behind Ardoyne Rd. Father Troy went into the schools to deliver the message to the young people and the staff and members of the various youth clubs and GAA were also consulted.
Teachers from the local schools and youth workers and staff from the GAA were also present at Ardoyne shops on Friday night.But all this consultation and willingness to try and have a peaceful outcome really does pale into insignifance when faced with the worldly wisdom and rationale of a punter whose last £5 went on the second favourite at Leopardstown.
Your comments about provo police etc really are quite pathetic.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:43 PMMaybe the good people of ardoyne were afraid to voice their true opinions to the green shirts..
Brenda, this is just the case! The hot-heads wouldn’t look favourably on those who see things differently.
Pat, you are right. Many of us, (IMO the majpority) are just busy getting on with life and couldn’t give a rats ass about the political success of the Green Shirts! You can bury your head and think it ain’t so but, that’s just the way it is!
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:48 PMPat you are dilebrately putting together two of my posts in order to cause confusion. that is the sign of a man who has no argument.
there was plenty of comment about gerry kelly marshalling the orange men thru ardoyne. Everyone remembers it, we all saw it, there is no doubt it was contentious not only in one area but a lot of areas.
You are deliberately trying to give the impression that there was universal agreement on the agreement, when clearly there was not. As I said, this was radio ulster news interviewing, and the local business woman and the people in the bookies are members of the area, just as the teachers in the schools WORK there. It was quite clear from the interview broadcast that there was NO UNIVERSAL agreement.
On the issue of springfield road, which is what this thread is about, there does seem to be universal agreement that the march is NOT wanted. This has also been reported on radio ulster news.
Why is one broadcast true and the other not. Because you say so? Why are the punters in the bookies who pay their £5 bets members of the community when they are murdered on the Ormeau road or bottom of the whiterock road, but not when they are being interviewed to say they do not want an orange march.
Is the desire for stormont that strong?
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:54 PMPat Mc Larnon
It is your arrogant, sycophantic support for the PROVOS which is truly pathetic
It is obsessive opinion like this that is turning people away from SF. Catch a grip!
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:55 PMMuch as the spat about who has the greater insight is enterntaining I would appreciate it if you could focus more on topic. I’d especially be interested in your comments about
“In broader terms on the use of rhetoric is defining particular outcomes as victory and implicitly a defeat for someone else wise? The selling of the last Agreement fell apart as each side claimed victory and as another deal edges closer is there a need to examine what language can be used to sell it without a process of upmanship?”
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:55 PMThe Metropolitan Police, Brenda, would no longer countenance a white supremacist march through London today largely because I, along with many others, stood up in violent confrontation with the National Front and the Met when they tried to force their march, that was sanctioned, through Brixton in the 70’s.
A close friend and comrade of mine, confronting the Nazis, had his picture large on the front cover of The Sun with a huge underlying strap “THE FACE OF HATE!!”. With good old London directness and wit, when his friends and family expressed horror at this depiction, he responded, “I don’t mind. It’s true. I do hate those effin’ Nazi bastards and I’ll keep hating ‘em and keep kicking ‘em while there’s breath in me body”.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 01:57 PMHi Brenda,
“Don’t go where you’re not wanted”
Is that not a bit of a dangerous precedent to set? One only has to think back to Ahoghill last summer to realise that some of the headcases from the opposite side of the fence to you might be listening…
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 02:03 PMdon’t go where you’re not wanted IMO applies to all sides.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 02:06 PM