Saturday, August 18, 2007
Crossing the divide to learn about ‘themmums’ marches…
THE past few days have seen members of one ‘side’ getting up close and personal with the other ‘side’s’ parading culture. Loyalist victims’ campaigner Willie Frazer attended last weekend’s republican hunger strike commemoration (which he was less than impressed with), while UDA leaders Jackie McDonald and Colin Halliday observed a parade by the Ancient Order of Hibernians in Kilkeel (see pic). Also crossing the divide, a number of ex-IRA prisoners paid a visit to the Apprentice Boys’ museum in Londonderry. The DUP’s Gregory Campbell, perhaps unfairly, hedges his bets on the value of the visit until he sees any outcome. Campbell doesn’t see the point of risk-taking, as it could (in his eyes) backfire. However, the risks taken by the Boys have also reaped dividends in recent years.
Belfast Gonzo @ 11:30 AM
Bob McGowan,
Ah you have returned with the single transferrable post.
I asked these questions of you a long time ago but you never answered them.
1). Do retired members of the security forces killed count as murders?
2). Does the killing of those whose crime was selling things like Mars bars to the security forces merit inclusion as a “murder”?
3). Does killing wives, husbands, children of those in the security forces count as murder?
4). Does killing members of the security forces who were off duty count as murder?
5). Does killing judges count as murder?
6). Does killing unionist politicians count as murder?
7). Were those members of the IRA killed whilst trying themselves to kill members of the security forces murdered?
Then since you are the doyen of arbitary decisions regarding who murdered / killed whom let us have some specifics
Was Marie Wilson murdered?
Was Douglas Derring murdered?I doubt we will get much sensible from you regarding this and if by chance we get honest answers we can all jusge the validity of your categorisations
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 06:10 PMAgh,
“Nothing to do with this thread at all, but I was wondering why no-one has mentioned the SDLP former mayor of larne calling a DUP disabled councilor ‘stumpy’”
And did you see the cut of the guy? Jeeze.
What should one call him? Fatty, Tubby, Piggy, Lardy?
Peeps who live in glasshouses etc…
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 06:20 PM‘The unionist paramilitaries killed 873 civilians and the security forces another 190 for a total of 1.063 civilians whose blood is on the hands of YOUR community. The republican paramiliataries, all combined, killed some 738 civilians. Of Which the Provisional IRA killed 517. ‘
source? wilkepedia?? via vatican perhaps lol
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 06:34 PMParsival,
“the jews of the OT would rent their garments, as a means of self-chastisement and ritual purification.”
I believe this is how the dress-hire business got started: by a couple of enterprising Jews in the Garment District of old Jerusalem.
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 06:37 PMThe same as the Irish language - being spoken for almost 2500 years with an enormously rich literature and judicial code associated with it -
how come the REAL irish , those in Ireland, dont even bother speaking this shite?
when was teh last time you heard the irish prime minister speak Irish?, Is Corrie watched in Irish or english?
Is Man Utd manages commentated in Irish or english?Nuff said
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 07:47 PMYou seem to forget that the real terrorists in NI were HMG and the unionist paramilitaries they supported and which unionists approved by their deafening silence. -
bob its catholics that repeatedly voted for the IRA in elections. Catholics all across the province have the blood of 40 years on their hands.
Unionists repeatedly rejected loyalists at the ballot box, and the RUC arrested and convicted more loyalists terrorists that repulicans.
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 07:50 PMobserver
A lot of Irish people can’t even seem to master English, as you have so amusingly proved.Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 07:50 PM#
observer
A lot of Irish people can’t even seem to master English, as you have so amusingly proved.
Posted by Cahal on Aug 18, 2007 @ 08:50 PMSo Cahal, when was the last time Bertie Ahern spoke in Irish? How many TDS speak in Irish in the Dail?
It the Irish dont bother using this dead languauge why should the Oirish ?
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 07:54 PMObserver,
The vast majority of paramilitary killings over the last few years have been perpetrated by loyalists? Do you condemn all Protestants as collectively guilty on the back of terrorist murders now being exclusively carried out by killers from that community?Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 08:00 PMObserver,
The vast majority of paramilitary killings over the last few years have been perpetrated by loyalists? Do you condemn all Protestants as collectively guilty on the back of terrorist murders now being exclusively carried out by killers from that community?
Posted by chewnic on Aug 18, 2007 @ 09:00 PMChewnic as mentioned, its not protestants who are voting for terrorits, its catholics
Also, as mentioned, more loyalists have been arrested and convicted for terrorist crimes than republican.
As this board has shown, catholics have no shame in their part of the protestant/british/unionist slaughter than went on here
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 08:05 PMobserver
“So Cahal, when was the last time Bertie Ahern spoke in Irish? How many TDS speak in Irish in the Dail?”
I really don’t know. I’ve never followed Bertie around. Have you stalked many politicians yourself?
“It the Irish dont bother using this dead languauge why should the Oirish ?”
I don’t know what this means. It seems like an incomprehensible sentence you constructed in order to arbitrarily insert the derogatory word ‘Oirish’ somewhere. Oh well. Good luck with the whole anti-Irish uber-prod thing. Although it’s all a bit pre-GFA.
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 08:17 PMHarry,
Okay let us take your demands in order.
1). Irish Language Rights. Well as far as I know people can speak Irish if they want. Should they be allowed to demand to correspond with public bodies in Irish, I remain to be convinced.
2). Yes Stormont involved significant sectarianism and was at fault. Was it their fault that the IRA began killing people; I suspect not. Was sectarian behaviour by the state acceptable; No. How widespread was it, I do not know we can argue about it but yes it seems to have been quite widespread. Was I personally responsible for it. Well let me see I was a toddler when Stormont was suspended.
3-6). Let us take these all together. When was Ireland united. By the British (well English actually) in the middle ages and afterwards. Was it united before? Does anyone know and if it was what relevance has this fact; none.
The true place for unionists is in a united Ireland. well last I saw the people of the whole island of Ireland voted that the consent of the people of Northern Ireland was required for a united Ireland. Maybe you do not accept the verdict of the people of Ireland?In terms of the reliance on arms, yes there are issues about 1912 but I was a bit younger than a toddler then as I suspect most people here were. Will I condemn the UVF of 1912, well no if that makes me an evil bigot then so be it. Will you condemn the 1916 Easter rising?
Now can you answer me, will you accept that the IRA waged a sectarian campaign against protestants? And in this perfect united Ireland of yours must I accept being irish, if I do not / cannot? And by the way just in chat are you from the island of Ireland?
Parcifal,
I much prefer debating with someone with a sense of humour. Should I rent my garments and put ash on my head? That might help but since I have no webcam I cannot post it to you. Will you accept my word for it? (ripping sounds).Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 08:27 PMSpecifically turgon - what’s the big deal about an Irish Language Act - it’s only a bunch of letters on signs - why are u so pissed off ? Embrace it mun !
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 08:39 PMWhilst looking at and agreeing with a lot of what harry has posted. I feel that those of us of a republican/nationalist belief, do not sometimes allow our fellow irishmen the opportunity to understand our views.
I do not ever try to tar the children with the sins of their fathers ( I do not mean this literally), Cromwell was a murderer, not the present head of the british government today. (unless you count iraq).
However it is obvious and I would hope beyond argument that when irish families in tyrone and armagh etc can say “that was our land before the invader arrived”. This is not subject to interpretation, it is the truth. you may disagree about the benefits of the occupation, but you cannot say that it did not happen
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 08:42 PMHowever it is obvious and I would hope beyond argument that when irish families in tyrone and armagh etc can say “that was our land before the invader arrived”. -
and whose land was it before their forefathers murdered for it?
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 08:48 PMWhy didn’t you answer the question, Observer?
On second thoughts, I think I already know why not…
Thanks for that.
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 09:02 PMStephen: However it is obvious and I would hope beyond argument that when irish families in tyrone and armagh etc can say “that was our land before the invader arrived”.
How was it their land? The vast majority of people back then were extremely insecure tenants. And after 800 years of intermarriage, and especially in the last 300, what does ‘our’ actually mean? When you talk about ‘irish families’ - are you going by surname? religion? politics? Can an old Limerick family wave their hands over a patch of Armagh and make the same speech?
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 09:13 PMStephen,
Well subtle and polite but “that was our land before the invader arrived”. This is not subject to interpretation, it is the truth. you may disagree about the benefits of the occupation, but you cannot say that it did not happen”
Well the small amount of land we own in South Londonderry was bought by my parents from a Protestant.
My wife has a large number of relatives most of whom are Co. Fermanagh farmers.What do you want done about this. How can we know who owned the land 300 years ago. Do you want it back? Who should get it? Should they get compensation? Is this not just more subtle MOPEry?
I trust you do not think it was worth killing anyone over now, nor has been for a few centuries
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 09:13 PMHarry: Thirdly you could address the fact that unionists are, strictly speaking, not just a minority within Ireland but would have been a minority in n. ireland itself already had they not instituted an economic regime that forced large numbers of nationalists to leave in order to find economic opportunities.
Isn’t that exactly the wrong way round? Whenever you see a potted biography of a nationalist politician half the time it seems their daddy came from the Free State to Northern Ireland. Maybe the South wasn’t exactly a land of milk and honey either. And was it only Nordies that build England’s motorways? Surely not!
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 09:20 PMchewnic, read it again , slowly
Catholics support terrorists, they VOTE FOR THEM
Protestants dont
Loyalists and republican terrorists should be hung until dead… simple enough ?Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 09:23 PMDewi,
I have said before I am not unpersuadable on Irish. There are a list of problems.
Remember that we were told that every word spoken in Irish is a shot fired in the cause of Irish freedom (Danny Morrison I believe).
The only times I heard Irish as a child was on TV at the funerals of dead terrorists or after a SF election victory.
At Queen’s Irish signs were used to mark out territory. Remember a team of independent consultants was eventually required to demand their removal. One of the first times I spoke at QUBSU I was shouted down for proposing multi lingual signs.
The posters who come on here demanding Irish signs etc. are in general hardly a great advert for Irish as a non sectarian language we can all enjoy.
As I say I am not unpersuadable. If I was in Wales I would be very keen on Welsh. I am so rubbish at languages I would fail to learn it but I could easily imagine sending the children to a Welsh medium nursery / school.
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 09:32 PM>>Now can you answer me, will you accept that the IRA waged a sectarian campaign against protestants?<<
Certainly not!
The IRA were culpable in targeting Protestants on a small number of occasions relative to all of the operations carried out. This small number (one should be considered one too many) of occasions should not be used as a defining characteristic of a campaign overwhelmingly carried on against the British occupation forces.
Would the British army’s campaign in Ireland be deigned a sectarian campaign against Catholics? Considering the considerable sway that they held with their proxies in the legal and illegal british militia’s like the UVF/RUC/UDA/UDR etc. Also their own actions on bloody sunday and other often indiscriminate shootings of innocent Catholics could be viewed the same way.
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 09:42 PMQuite some time ago at a public meeting, some man posed a question, to our former Prime Minister Brian Faulkner, in Irish. Quite to the surprise of the guy who thought he was being a smart ass, Faulkner replied in perfect Irish. He had been educated in Dublin and was totally fluent.
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 09:46 PMThis is all getting a bit heated. Can I tell a slightly amusing story about one of the languages I have very little command of (other than English which I know I have little command of).
Quite a number of years ago I briefly did some volunteer work in Africa. When in Nairobi we worked out that the street hawkers did not bother hasselling the white Kenyans and ex pat aid workers.
Hence, we all wore trousers rather than jeans or shorts, shirts not teeshirts. When sellers assailed us with Jambo (Hi) we gave the formal Swahili answer Musori sana (very fine). They practically always then ignored us as they wrongly presumed we were local whites and not interested in buying tourist stuff.
I just though a bit of light relief was called for unless someone wants to call me a racist.
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 10:06 PMI was intrigued to learn that the AOH could still muster enough support for a parade in the North and even more so that a notable one seems to have just taken place in Kilkeel. Personal connections sharpen my sense of wanting to know more, but I do not have a subscription to the Irish News and wonder where I might learn “further and better details, as m’learned friends would have it.
The reasons for my my particular interest are these: My great-grandmother on the maternal side was a fisherman’s widow from Kilkeel. My maternal grandfather, James “Jimmy” Carr the husband of a daughter of the Kilkeel fisherman’s widow, died at Mons in the early days of WW1 within short days of his call-up. His brother, my great uncle, Hamill Carr (please note the double consonants - he was decidedly not Hannibal’s father) survived the war but lost an eye and thereafter wore an eyepatch. He returned to live in Downpatrick where he became a staunch Hib.
After a time (I presume post 1919 or certainly after 1921 the AOH were banned from parading on August 15th). The first year of the ban “Hammy” as he was known led the parade in defiance of the law, was arrested and spent a month in Crumlin Road gaol. Every year thereafter the RUC District Inspector, DI “Tail Light” Murphy (from the little red bicycle lamp that was worn at night at the bottom of his blacktorn stick, which was a badge of his office and with which he tapped his approach to his constables on his nightime rounds) would visit Hammy in the week preceding the “15th” and warn him not to march. And every year Hammy would lead the march and every year he was arrested and sent off to “the Crum” for a month. A cheering crowd would wave him off at Downpatrick station as he was boarded to head towards “durance vile” and another cheering crowd would greet him as he returned home a month later.
And that is the legend that, since a boy, I have had of one side of my family that contains references both to Kilkeel and the Hibs. There is much more that follows but you’ll have to wait for the blockbuster novelised biography or wait for the movie.
My grandfather, Jimmy, is mentioned on the Downpatrick War Memorial and in War Office records but poor Hammy has no memorial neither in stone nor in print. May this, my poor record, serve as his epitath and may he have led his little angel band of Hibs in heaven on Wednesday and may “Tail Light” too have been there to stand on and observe, and gently smile.
Posted by on Aug 18, 2007 @ 10:23 PM
