Thursday, August 02, 2007
Cross border motorway to cut half hour from Belfast-Dublin journey
Just 14 Kms long, but the new motorway link (opening today) between the A1 at Cloghoge in Co Armagh to the N1 at Dundalk will cut out that circuitous/tortuous journey through and around the north Louth border town. At 2 hours, the road link now rivals the rail journey for speed, if not convenience.
Mick Fealty @ 07:58 AM
MICK
Bilingual Irish/English road signs should not be erected universally across the north - the vast majority of Irish speakers agree with this.
One proposal that could be introduced is that signs are erected according to electoral wards. If the majority of a certain electoral ward wanted bilingual Irish/English signage, erect them. If they don’t, keep them in English. If they want Gaelic only signs, so be it.
That would be a fair system and would recognise that some areas have many Irish speakers, while others have few.
PS - There was only one person who really played the man.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:15 PM‘Should it be universal across NI? And, crucially to a decent conversation between opponents, why?’
No. Because in many areas people would not want them.
‘What principle should be used to decide when, and when not, it is advisable to have billingual signage?’
Consult the local democratically elected reps. If a clear pattern does not develope then a local consultation based on the electoral ward should be carried out.
mnob,
We know alot about East Ulster Irish, I know few Irish speakers would wouldn’t have a cd or two in the house of the story tradition and conversations etc. Theres loads of books, studies, videos etc.
But dont go by me!
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/oirthear/biblio.txt
East Ulster : An bhfeil Gaedhlig Uladh agat fhéin?
Standard : An bhfuil Gaeilge Uladh agat féin?
Eng : Have you ulster Irish yourself.Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:16 PM“last time I drove to Dublin, I had to go into Dundalk to get a petrol station.”
Indeed, what’s that all about? Why were there loads of petrol stations on the NI side of the border when petrol was cheaper here, but now it is cheaper in RoI, there are none on their side of the border?
I consider this far more important than trying to get ulster-scots or irish or whatever on the signs. Best post on that subject was from Mark and worth repeating:
“Clarity, brevity and accuracy is what matters in roadsigns. They are not history lessons or methods of “expressing cultural and linguistic choice”, they’re just there to help people find their way.”
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:17 PMmnob,
‘standard Irish propogates the nonsense that there was a homogenous culture, political structure and government somehow different to the rest of ‘these islands’ ‘
Have to point out that prior the the battle of Kinsale Irish/Gaelic had a standard dialect known as ‘Classical Irish’ in use from Kerry to Sutherland. It was acquired by a class of trained scribes known as bards and its purpose (in addition to literary value) was to promote communication throughout Gaelic Scotland and Ireland.
So a standard is not a new thing.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:22 PMBlue Hammer I’m afraid your apology is not accepted (not by me anyway). Even by Slugger standards, I have’nt seen such blatant sectarian bigotry in some time. Crawl back into your cave, or The Kilwilkie Estate or wherever you belong…
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:23 PM“
“We don’t have 2 heads”Open goal, but Mick is on the sidelines ;)
Posted by Cruimh on Aug 02, 2007 @ 02:12 PM
“:-) You got me there, Cruimh!
Back on topic, a problem with having bilingual signs in only certain areas would be that it could possibly be another version of the old kerbstones/flags issue - ie demarcations of ‘territory’.
Personally i’d like to see the bilingual signs everywhere in NI, or not at all (although good luck putting them up in Tiger’s Bay! :-)
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:25 PM“Any Gaelic speaker will tell you - it’s the same language from Cork to Lewis, Galway to Inverness. There are of course dialectal differences but that’s linguistic, not politics.”
From the Irish News - seems to support mnob
If the letter is too long for here, sorry
” Everybody is all mixed up over Ulster Irish
16/01/2004
Opinion: Letters
SEAN O CEARNAIGH,EAMONN O’Connor’s recent correspondence relating to Irish (January 12) betrays a unique ignorance of the contemporary history of the language since Irish independence in 1921.
While his opponent ‘Ulster Scot’ rambles on about the misty past, Eamonn himself is unable to enlighten him.
In fact, if Ulster Scot was to accept Eamonn’s version of events, he would be more confused than when he first entered into the controversy.
Eamonn dismisses the central and most valid point made by Ulster Scot ie that the Dublin government adopted the Munster dialect as a substitute for the spoken tongue in the rest of the country.
This is easily proved, especially in the case of Ulster Irish.
The latter was always under pressure from the south from the foundation of the Gaelic League in 1893.
In the end, Ulster was forced to set up its own defence council in 1924, in the form of Comhaltas Uladh, which from then on led the fight for the survival of Irish in Ulster until it finally capitulated in 1948.
Ulster Scot states that “this form of Irish should not be taught in the schools of the north” and Eamonn adds “it shouldn’t and it isn’t”.
Eamonn should research his subject better.
Not only is ‘this type of Irish’ taught in the schools, but it is forced on the Gaeltacht as well.
Many years ago I had to withdraw my children from a Gaeltacht school because standardised Irish (to give it its true title) was inhibiting their understanding of all subjects.
Eamonn states also that students in ‘the six counties’ learn Ulster Irish, which is why they go to the Gaeltacht in Donegal.
Would that it were true!
Ulster Irish has been corrupted to the extent that the young are alienated and the old are cynical.
Anything passes for Irish now and, instead of linking up with the Gaeltacht in defence of Ulster Irish, those who espouse the language have given their blessing to Ulster Scots.
Their attitude to both these issues demonstrates how far we have come since 1948.
A living, virile tongue was sacrificed then for opportunistic reasons and Ulster Scots, which is a linguistic non-starter, has been accepted for the same reason.
We have passed the point where these trends can be reversed and Eamonn should not pretend that all is well in a Gaeltacht where children don’t understand their teachers and parents are mystified by books their children use at school.
SEAN O CEARNAIGH, Belfast
http://www.irishnews.com/access/archive/story.asp?SID=450186Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:26 PMClarity, brevity and accuracy is what matters in roadsigns. They are not history lessons or methods of “expressing cultural and linguistic choice”, they’re just there to help people find their way.
Indeed, but bilingual signs can be clear, brief and accurate.
What if, for example, 30% of a certain area do not call Newry Newry but An tIúr? Do not call Jonesborough Jonesborough but Baile An Chláir? Do not call Mullaghbawn but An Mullach Bán?
Surely these people have the right to signs of their home town in their own language, which actually happens to be the native language of their area.
It’s been shown as best practice in other parts of the UK, wht not here?
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:26 PM“One proposal that could be introduced is that signs are erected according to electoral wards. If the majority of a certain electoral ward wanted bilingual Irish/English signage, erect them. If they don’t, keep them in English. If they want Gaelic only signs, so be it.”
That would be insane. It would amount to a territorial pissing contest, and we have enough of those with the flags, murals and painted kerbstones. In the “gaelic only” areas it would defeat the point of signs, which are to give directions, to the 70-80% that don’t understand Irish (and 100% of foreigners).
Either have all signs in English only; or all signs in English/Irish; or all signs in English/Irish/Ulster-Scots.
And even then, you would get prats scoring out the languages they didn’t approve of.
Back to Mark - “Clarity, brevity and accuracy is what matters in roadsigns”. This is important when you are driving at 60mph and a sign appears saying “careful - tractors on road”. If this is bilingual you spend an extra precious millisecond reading the right bit. In gaelic only and most people would be dead.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:27 PMWhile I can’t claim to speak for the pro-Gaelic speakers here I would guess that it’s not being told to fuck off they object to, we are all adults here, it’s having their language refered to as leaprachaun speak that they find offensive, which I note you didn’t say sorry for.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:27 PMgood news with the new road opening. ive been driving up and down it the last few weeks while it was a single lane in each direction. the new bit up to newry should help alot, but i have to wonder why they didnt just build it as motorway. it will only have to be upgraded at a later stage. probably the same old duffers incharge that built a newry bypass and thought it a good idea to put several roundabouts in it !
the other problem from newry down to dublin is the total lack of service stations. is there anywhere else in europe that builds long stretches of motorway but doesnt bother to put in any service stations? i bet the old duffers incharge will decide to put a roundabout half way down the motorway so we can turn off to the nearest town…
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:27 PMOh no, Macswiney.
How will i sleep tonight?
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:27 PMmac, what have you got against Kilwilke?
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:28 PMThere is a Morgan Fuels place just over the border just off the the old main road. I think it only did diesel and not petrol. There is a proper filling station with shop etc just off the Ballymascanlon roundabout that doesn’t require you to drive into Dundalk. However, I’d agree that the M1 needs proper service stations.
About the irish signs thing, could you not all just agree to disagree and stop spamming this thread.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:29 PMBlue Hammer,
‘While the only argument put forward is culture’
Personally I would never argue for a bilingual sign on the basis on culture.
I would argue for it (in willing areas only of course) on the basis that it tells a Gaelic speaker to what one is travelling to in addition to where.
In addition, an Irish speaker it is important to me that our young people know the Irish for a place as well as the English, this can be difficult due to the influences on 1. the t.v. and 2. the signs are in English only.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:30 PMSo if the same language was spoken from Cork to Inverness how come we have a language which today is called Irish and a language which is called Scots Gallic.
When standard Irish was drawn up - where was the border (so to speak) drawn between the two ‘dialects’ ?
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:32 PMCRUIMH
No harm to you but if you spoke Irish you would understand.
Seán Ó Cearnaigh is a purist, it’s a bit like saying Spanish is Vulgar because it’s not Classical Latin.
Languages develop but there is no doubt that the Irish spoken in Ulster is Ulster Irish.
Ask any speaker, apart from the old crazies like Ó Cearnaigh of course!
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:32 PMKilwilkie - as in Lurgan ? It’s a republican heartland.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:32 PM//it’s having their language refered to as leaprachaun speak that they find offensive, which I note you didn’t say sorry for. //
And I won’t be.
It’s a dead language, only being kept alive artificially for narrow sectarian political reasons. It has no place in the modern world. Forcing your children to be educated in Irish Medium schools is tantamount to child abuse, given the need, in modern life, for a solid command of English.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:34 PMIt’s all horribly confusing to us planters RG ;)
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:34 PMThe fact that Blue Hammer doesn’t recognise that his use of the phrase ‘Leprechaun Speak” was offensive or his entreaty for Irish speakers to go ‘back across the border’ says a great deal about his ignorance and profound sectarianism.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:36 PMCome on MNOB!
It’s called Irish and Scottish Gaelic in English! The Gaelic is more or less the same:
Gaeilge, Gaelg, Gáidhlig…
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:37 PMIt’s a dead language, only being kept alive artificially for narrow sectarian political reasons.
That’s cobblers. There may be some with that motivation, and they may be the most vocal or get the most press, but it’s grossly unfair to libel everybody keen on Irish in that manner.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:41 PM//The fact that Blue Hammer doesn’t recognise that his use of the phrase ‘Leprechaun Speak” was offensive or his entreaty for Irish speakers to go ‘back across the border’ says a great deal about his ignorance and profound sectarianism.
Posted by Oilibhear Chromaill on Aug 02, 2007 @ 02:36 PM//
Tell me, Mr Cromwell, what does it say then?
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:42 PMComing as we do from the Maiden City and being used to nipping over the border to buy our petrol from any number of handy petrol stations o/h and I were rather confused by the lack of petrol stations south of the border when coming up that road from Dublin Airport a year or two ago. Waiting until the last possible moment (as you do) to buy our petrol we finally came to one. O/h went to see to the petrol and I went into the shop. It was the Tayto crisps that gave it away, then I realised we’d crossed over. Found o/h recovering from the shock, not being used to paying those sort of prices for a long time.
Posted by on Aug 02, 2007 @ 12:43 PM
