Sunday, May 11, 2008
Cross-bench support
In an unprecendented move, a joint letter has been sent to all MP’s from the party leaders of the four largest NI parties opposing the Lib Dems proposal to extend abortion to Northern Ireland.
Fair Deal @ 11:21 AM
Harry Flashman,
These are the figures for abortions performed in England to Northern Ireland residents in 2005, by age:Under 16 - 21
16-17 - 61
18-19 - 124
20-24 - 360
25-29 - 245
30-34 - 180
35-39 - 111
40 & over - 62
Total 1,164http://www.fpa.org.uk/attachments/published/89/PDF NI Abortion January 2007.pdf
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:01 AMIt was Sammy Mc Nally what done it - “re. Gerry Mc Geogh you could equally say the Labout party in Britian is anti the death penalty and has no problem going to war against in Iraq ... Republican violence in Norn Iron probably has the moral edge there.”
It’s interesting that you are using the Labour Party as some sort of guide to make Republicans look less bad! Back to the issue: Gerry McGeough, some Sinn Fein PIRA terrorists and some Roman Catholic priests have no regrets about snuffing out the life of Protestants or those Roman Catholics they disagreed with politically. Yet they talk about the sanctity of human life when it comes to abortion. But the media does not challenge them on such issues.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:15 AMI wouldn’t like to comment on the rights/wrongs of murdering infants, but if i was the SDLP i’d be filing this away for the next Assembly election, Joe Boyle lost by a whisker at the expense of alot of nationalist voting Alliance because of Keiran McCarthy’s Catholic background.
Well if this is what the Alliance’s mainland liberal brothers are in favour of lets see how they play it over here, what is the Alliance party’s position? How ‘liberal’ are they prepared to be?
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:16 AMGeorge
thanks for that.
Now, given that NI women are utilising the 1967 Act in England perfectly legally why shouldn’t they utilise the provisions of that Act in Northern Ireland?
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:17 AMThere’s little point getting into the debate over whether abortions are right or wrong, either one accepts a woman’s right to be the ultimate arbiter over her own body, or they don’t.
Except (and thanks for the opportunity to reiterate my point) it’s not merely an issue in respect of the woman’s body.
The embryo and foetus is created not only by the woman, but also by a man, and society recognises the man’s responsibility – in law – for the child that develops from that embryo. It is a contradictory message to say that the man has responsibility and rights as soon as the child is born, but he should have no rights whatsoever in deciding whether or not the child – created equally by him and the woman – is born in the first place.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:25 AMDoes the 4 Leaders letter call for abortion providers in Britain not to provide services to people with Northern Ireland addresses?
I mean it would be illogical, cowardly and morally repugant to adopt a position that says ‘yes you can have an abortion but you must travel to another part of the same country to have it.’
Surely our leaders are not such hypocritcal poseurs!?Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:29 AMBonarLaw,
because ( probably ) a big majority of people in Non Iron dont agree with it - unlike in mainland Britain and given that the Non Iron assembly is in a position to do in cerain areas what it decides is best for the plain people of Non Iron then they could and should ( presuming the DUP get their act together) decide this issue as it clearly very important to the political parties.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:31 AMIt was Sammy McNally what done it
the same could be said of Scotland yet the issue is for Westminster.
If there was a total ban in Northern Ireland at present and a ban on obtaining abortions on the mainland then the non extension body might have a point. But as neither of those situations exist it is hard to disagree with Elvis Parkers’ 11:29.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:39 AMI wish, I just wish that out of all the talentless numpties sitting as Unionist MLAs, one, just one, could actually say they were in favour of this.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:39 AMBTW is this the start of SF Westminster activity? If so where, I wonder, will it end?
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:45 AMDave,
You cannot separate the issues I have raised with the ones you speak of, that’s the point. The practical consequences of various positions should be weighed up.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:53 AMBonar,
presumably it’s not such a burning issue in Scotland - and anyway they have a seperate legal and administrative relationship with the mainland.
re. Travel.
Elvis,
Any proposed legislation preventing abortion abroad (ouside Non Iron) would have to be practical with many ways around the address issue on the mainland. Eastern Europe would also be an obvious candidate as an alternative and should ROI legislation change Irish citizens in north could presumably also travel there.
The Pro-Lifers presumably know that proposing such a law on movement would undermine their whole arguement - this is one instance perhaps where they might admit that politics comes before principle?
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 10:53 AMI have the privilege of working during the year in various 3rd World countries(sorry - should be 1st World) and I always find myself in this conversation:
Q Why does the rich west kill its babies?
A They don’t (unless they’re handicapped/imperfect). They only kill them before they leave the womb, or as they leave the womb.
Q But that is human life?
A It is only what we define it to be; and it is neither human nor life.
Q I don’t understand? But why do it anyway?
A The need for choice.
Q I don’t understand. But anyway, we see baby killing as unnatural. It will bring the curse of Cain on you all. It is already happening, for the European population is dying out. We do not like to see that happening, as we respect the West, it’s values and its contributions to mankind.
A Some women find themselves in difficulties with a baby.
Q Who puts them in these difficulties?
A Society, the system ...
Q I thought it was men. Have things changed that much?
A I don’t understand.
Q What about all this human-animal embryo business, babies with no biological fathers,killing the sick in their hospital beds, is there any connection with killing babies?
A No.Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 11:12 AMSammy
NI has a seperate legal and administrative relationship with Westminster just as Scotland does.
IMHO any attempt to ban travel either within the UK or the EU would be unlawful so my point remains- if the 1967 Act is being utilised in numbers by NI women what is the point of preventing its’ extension to Northern Ireland?
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 11:13 AMOur politicians may be scoring an own goal on this as the word from London is that, if the Abortion Act is not extended to NI this time, pro-choice activists here open a clinic in Belfast to challenge the law here by providing abortions. Then, the four holier-than-thou parties will have to take their heads out of the sand and address the reality that women will try to control their fertility any way they can - no matter what politicians and/or clergymen say.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 11:39 AMBonarLaw,
by decriminalising certain things in a particular society it is arguable that it makes makes them more popular by normalising them - or so the arguement goes as it is emploeyed for example in the debate over drug selling/use.
p.s. I am not in any way comparing abortion with drug use but pointing out that the same arguements against legalisation can be employed in both debates.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 11:47 AMIMHO any attempt to ban travel either within the UK or the EU would be unlawful so my point remains- if the 1967 Act is being utilised in numbers by NI women what is the point of preventing its’ [sic] extension to Northern Ireland?
I guess the reasons are mainly symbolic: (1) by opposing extension the parties here are able to demonstrate to their various electorates that they are anti-abortion; and (2) it sends out a message to society generally that abortion is considered to be wrong in NI, notwithstanding the fact that it is available by travelling outside NI.
There could also be a practical reason in that it erects a logistical and financial obstacle to obtaining an abortion (likely to be most effective against those on low incomes).
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 11:47 AMThe fact is that around 2,000 women from here, per year, travel to Great Britain for abortions. Such abortions are legal in Britain but are illegal here. Therefore, the matter is not simply an Assembly issue. Rather, local Parties are essentially turning a blind eye. They can make local legislation as pro-life as they wish but it doesn’t stop any woman from here boarding an EasyJet plane and obtaining what she wants, and what is entirely within the law, in Britain.
What local Party leaders should be campaigning for is that women in all parts of the UK should have the same rights. Pro-Life campaigners from here - like Jeffrey Donaldson - should be arguing for an amendment to national legislation if they feel strongly on the issue. Because it is national legislation that applies to the thousands of women from here - regardless of what local arrangements exist.
The Little Ulster mentality of our local politicians on this issue is disgraceful. The subject of abortion is always contentious. But hiding from the real-life, everyday situations of thousands of women is not the way forward. Northern Ireland women are British citizens and the legislative arrangements pertaining to their rights to abortion should be no different for women in Britain. It is for all our Westminster MPs to decide on the nature of that national legislation, and to ensure it is applied in every corner of this Kingdom. The alternative is the status quo - which is totally unacceptable.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 11:48 AMJeffrey,
don’t think of this as a “Little Ulster mentality” but rather as a “bigger Irish mentality”.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 11:56 AMFor those (Hogan) too busy or lazy to read up the thread - the Alliance Party position is and always has been to treat this as a conscience issue; members have the right to a free vote on the matter.
Also, let’s get our facts straight on where the amendment is coming from; it is a back-bench amendment supported by a number of Lib Dem MPs, not an official party motion. Labour MPs have done similar things in the past. The Lib Dems, like every other GB-based party, treats this as a conscience issue.
With those basic facts outlined, let’s look at Hogan’s proposition that the SDLP could use this as a wedge issue against Alliance. It would be quite difficult to use it against Kieran McCarthy, probably the most pro-life member of our Assembly group. On the other hand, let’s turn the question around: how many of Alasdair McDonnell’s voters in South Belfast were Alliance or Women’s Coalition-y soggy left types who voted for Alasdair because they thought he was a liberal? Does he really want to wave ultra-Catholic, pro-life, colours around South Belfast at the next Westminster election with Anna Lo on the ballot paper? Really?
Are you sure?
As for the abortion debate, there is no point trying to use logic because most people’s positions are determined by the point at which they think human life begins. I wish the pro-life lobby would take into account just how recently the concept of life beginning at conception and abortion in the first four months being a crime is. There is no evidence that foetuses in the first trimester feel, think, are conscious or are capable of feeling pain, no matter how many 3D scans are deliberately misinterpreted to imply they are.
I have serious reservations with abortion much after 15 weeks except in the most serious medical cases but I do not believe that foetuses at earlier stages show any evidence of human life, and if you’re going to start talking about ‘potential human life’ then you start getting into the fairly silly territory where the official position of the Catholic Church is to oppose barrier contraception.
But I doubt this is going to convince anyone. Sin é. Women, mostly young women, are going to continue to travel to Glasgow and Liverpool to get abortions and we will continue to add needless distress and trauma to that experience. And the hypocrisy, judgementalism and cant of the flag-waving Christian lobby will continue.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 12:01 PM“It is a contradictory message to say that the man has responsibility and rights as soon as the child is born, but he should have no rights whatsoever in deciding whether or not the child – created equally by him and the woman – is born in the first place.”
Actually I recall a story from the States last year which encapsulated this very issue. A man was refusing to pay child support for his child by his estranged girlfriend on the grounds that abortion is freely available in the US and regarded as a human right and as he had suggested his girlfriend abort the pregnancy he saw no reason why he should be expected to pay for the child in the future.
A truly appalling man no doubt, but appalling morality is the logical result of claiming that the infanticide of unwanted unborn babies is some sort of universal human right.
No doubt when the liberal left gets going on euthanasia we shall see equally pleasant consequences.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 12:02 PM‘Northern Ireland women are British citizens and the legislative arrangements pertaining to their rights to abortion should be no different for women in Britain. It is for all our Westminster MPs to decide on the nature of that national legislation, and to ensure it is applied in every corner of this Kingdom.’
Well said Jeffrey. Either NI residents are British citizens or they’re not.
And so much for SF’s ‘radicalism’ on this issue. There was a time when they at least talked about a woman’s right to choose.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 12:15 PMBTW is this the start of SF Westminster activity? If so where, I wonder, will it end?
SF MPs occupy and utilise Westmister offices and have done for some time. Will it end with the dumping of abstentionism? I doubt it, not even Gerry Adams could rationalise that one away.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 12:18 PMI wonder if a hung parliament would be worth dumping abstentionism. Doubt they would do it though. Anyway, Sammy Morse is right to say that this is about when you think life begins. But I think to reduce this to an attack on Christian beliefs ignores the extent to which people who are not Christians oppose abortion.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 12:26 PMSammy Morse,
“I do not believe that foetuses at earlier stages show any evidence of human life”
But I take it you accept that some people may see it differently and not just those characterised by “hypocrisy, judgementalism and cant of the flag-waving Christian lobby”.
Posted by on May 12, 2008 @ 12:27 PM
