Wednesday, October 24, 2007
Common Travel Area to go?
It may have survived Irish secession and the second World War but it seems the Common Travel Area may soon be over. The UK intends to introduce an e-border scheme for all air and sea passengers in 2009. This would mean Irish citizens would need to be in possession of a passport when entering the UK by those means. The UK is not expected to apply the scheme to the land border and it appears the Irish government may introduce a similar e-border scheme as well.
Fair Deal @ 09:00 AM
What’s the practical implication for travellers from Northern Ireland to Great Britain?
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 09:26 AMJust as a matter of interest, when was the last time anyone, anywhere including BFS and BHD, boarded an aircraft without identification, of which the passport is the most usual form?
That said, I think I did it last October to fly from SFO to LAX (but Frontier Air made up for it by refusing all non-US credit cards).
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 09:34 AMThis would mean Irish citizens would need to be in possession of a passport when entering the UK by those means.
Or, to be precise, people travelling from the Republic by those means.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 09:40 AMI think this is a good thing in general, it will allow us to implement shengen and carry national ID cards for travel in the EU, this will help us again to conform to EU norms and to protect ourselves better but only as long as this does not affect cross border travel in Ireland. Irish customs should police NI ports/airports aswell and an all-ireland approach should be adopted for this purpose. A separate NI customs should be created to allow them to work to an “Ireland” agenda in cooperation with Irish customs. But due to the existence of NI we will still be forced to keep some things, e.g. left (wrong side)side driving, 2 currencies etc which will always hold Ireland back.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 10:10 AMWhen boarding a flight from Dublin to Derry recently I was told I would need a passport, no not as identification but because the operators, Loganair, said it was an international flight and therefore the passport was required. When you fly back down to Dublin from Derry you have to go through passport control which surprised me, downright unconstitutional if you ask me.
With regard to this issue it seems to be an utterly pointless exercise if you can simply cross the land border and take a flight or boat from Belfast. Wasn’t the whole point of the opt out from Schengen that both nations respected each others’ ability to police their respective borders?
I recall travelling through Dublin airport with my foreign wife and being told that Irish immigration authorities regarded themselves as “covering the arses of the Brits” and vice versa as regards visas issued to each country and that such was the importance of the common travel area that they would refuse entrance to people entering the Republic if they were suspected of trying to travel on to the UK without a valid British visa even if they were in possession of a valid Irish permit.
I don’t know whether this was true or whether he was just trying to make sure we had valid visas (we did) but it was certainly my experience that the Irish immigration authorities were much more punctilious about checking passports and if I might add unhelpful than their UK counterparts.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 10:21 AMI am dead against the concept of being “asked for your papers” and if identity cards are ever enforced in Britain or Ireland I will carry my card in my shoe.
British Labour’s obsession with monitoring the movement of citizens is going to spill over into Ireland, is erecting barriers that have not existed between the two Islands since the aftermath of the second world war, and will not make life any safer in reality for anyone.
What will happen with all this data that will be accumulated about the movements of British and Irish citizens around these islands? How will it be policed?
This is the nanny state at its very worst.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 10:21 AMI’m not sure how driving on the “wrong” side of the road is holding Ireland or the UK back…
Anyway, this is an interesting one but not really as big a deal as it seems - it’s not like it effects Irish people’s ability to reside in the UK without a visa, or vice versa.
It will be interesting to see what effect this has on NI residents - will they need their passports too?
I’m not really sure if this will give Ireland the freedom to join Schengen, or if such a move would be worth much anyway besides being able to use National ID instead of a passport.
The main benefits of Schengen are found on landborders between EU countries and as it stands we have as relaxed a land border as any mainland European country does.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 10:23 AMMalcolm Redfellow asked:
> Just as a matter of interest, when was the last time anyone, anywhere including BFS and BHD, boarded an aircraft without identification, of which the passport is the most usual form?
bmi at Belfast City Airport never ask for ID - even if you’re boarding with an eticket. Always wondered why they don’t need it but an efare from easyJet does require some form of photo id?
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 10:36 AM“I’m not sure how driving on the “wrong” side of the road is holding Ireland or the UK back…”
Indeed especially considering that 35% of the world drives on that side and some of those who changed did so as a result of a guy called Bonaparte and a guy called Hitler. Certainly Japan and Australia don’t seem to do too badly economically. :)
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 10:41 AM“When you fly back down to Dublin from Derry you have to go through passport control which surprised me, downright unconstitutional if you ask me.”
But you don’t need a passport! Photo ID like a driver’s licence will do the job if you tell them you’ve come from the UK or Ireland.
Sometimes “howerya” in the right accent has been known to suffice....... Depends on whether they’re checking for economic migrants or terrorists that day.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 10:49 AMThis means that British citizens living in Northern Ireland will need passports to travel to the rest of the UK.
So it seems Northern Ireland will be outside the UK’s e-border but within the Republic’s one.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 11:05 AMRBinge @ 11:21 AM:
I am dead against the concept of being “asked for your papers”
Fair enough, so are we all; except ...
I have a daughter who was five minutes away from work in the World Trade Center on 11th September 2001 and a wife who should have been on the Piccadilly Line on 7th July 2005 (and was walking through Euston Station just before 1 pm on 10th September 1973). It all changes one’s perspective on these things.
Nor am I entirely convinced by Stephen Collins’s piece on the front of today’s Irish Times;
Throughout the period since independence, even during the second World War and the IRA terrorist campaign, travel has been possible without any identity document between the two states.
Well, except for the wartime identity documents (I’ve still got my parents’ cards). And that’s not my recollection either of taking a car on the ferries during the 1970s and 1980s, nor the experience of my bearded brother-in-law with a strong Northern accent.… the application of e-border controls in both countries with close co-operation between the respective authorities would effectively seal off the two islands.
Pardon? I’m still not clear what that really means, except it sounds suspiciously like that Times headline: “Storms in the channel. Continent cut off.”Get a grip. It’s the 21st century.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 11:05 AMPresumably the immigration checks will continue to be done on anyone coming from any EU country, as is the case at the moment. So how will this help implement Schengen as one poster has said? It goes against the whole spirit of Schengen which removes internal EU controls while strengthening the external EU border. At present you can go between Spain and Portugal or France and Germany, for example, without systematic checking.
The UK is adding borders not removing them. This, along with the refusal to adopt the Euro, shows that the UK wants to be inside and outside the EU at the same time. One day they will have to make their bl**dy mind up, IMHO!Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 11:22 AM*But you don’t need a passport! Photo ID like a driver’s licence will do the job if you tell them you’ve come from the UK or Ireland.
Sometimes “howerya” in the right accent has been known to suffice....... Depends on whether they’re checking for economic migrants or terrorists that day.*
Indeed that would probably work for me with my bap face, paddy pink complexion and a Derry accent that could cut coul’ steel, not so sure my Asian wife could carry it off though.
*I have a daughter who was five minutes away from work in the World Trade Center on 11th September 2001 and a wife who should have been on the Piccadilly Line on 7th July 2005 (and was walking through Euston Station just before 1 pm on 10th September 1973). It all changes one’s perspective on these things.*
And how precisely would carrying identity papers have prevented any of those attacks? They were all carried out by people who were in the country legitimately, as are indeed 95% of terrorist attacks worldwide.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 11:24 AM“I’m not sure how driving on the “wrong” side of the road is holding Ireland or the UK back…”
Not sure myself but if the change from Left to Roght is made it musat be done gradually.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 11:35 AMRight and must
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 11:42 AMWasn’t Ireland’s Schengen opt out under the Amsterdam Treaty because of the Common Travel Area?
If this goes, does the Republic now move closer to joining Schengen?
Can Northern Ireland become part of the Schengen zone while the rest of the UK stays out?
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 12:13 PM“Not sure myself but if the change from Left to Right is made it must be done gradually.”
Ah, Dewi, I never suspected that you were so influenced by the philosophy of New Labour.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 12:20 PMHarry: “I recall travelling through Dublin airport with my foreign wife and being told that Irish immigration authorities regarded themselves as “covering the arses of the Brits””
A lot of South Africans and Australians I’ve met in London all say that if you’ve over stayed your visa in the UK and you need to get out or fly back in then you go through Dublin and take the ferry over. I can see how it would work
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 12:32 PMShengen allows us to travel to European destinations with just an ID card, very convenient indeed. Shengen will allow us to implement our own controls or spot checks as are carried out at other european borders. If the UK (referring to Britain for some readrs) wishes to tighten her borders its her business. I believe the irish government should implement shengen to protect “all Ireland” interests by insisting on a separate identity for NI. IDs are required when you go by sea or air between NI and the UK already so what would change. This would be much more effective a less costly than the ineffective expensive and partitionist policing of a land border, It will be just like the bad days all over again!! This is a UK problem not an Irish problem as as the irish customs rightly point out they are covering Britain’s arse as said above, although the irish government has an obligation to ensure that
all ireland is not adversely affected by Britains
border ideas.Driving on the left, some points:
I read somewhere that 10% of accidents in ireland are due to people forgetting which side to drive on, can somebody confirm this?Most visitors come from countries who drive on this side.
More than 2/3 of the world drives on the right more again if you count it in km of roads
All our neighbours except of course the UK continue to drive on the left.
Left driving countries are ex british colony or remote areas in the world, australia for example
Most vehicles are built LHD due to this many are not sold in ireland. renault twingo, lancias, dacias, to name but a few incuding alot of american vehicles.
our vehicles are more expensive and not as well equipped.
Huge problem for tourism
Migrant workers, all form Right side driving countries, how many have had accidents recently.
Europe may part fund a changeover,
I have visited so far about 35 countries and i have yet to visit one that drives on our side.
I have lived in france for years, every time i go back to Ireland i feel its ridiculous!
If a change over was to happen i believe it could only be done in a united Ireland.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 12:36 PMNI in shengen and the uk not. interesting point george, any answers people?
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 12:39 PMHarry Flashman @ 12:24 PM
… how precisely would carrying identity papers have prevented any of those attacks? They were all carried out by people who were in the country legitimately, as are indeed 95% of terrorist attacks worldwide.
In the context, an interesting use of the word “legitimately”.
Incidentally, I seem to recall, as of earlier this year, there were going on for 30 (as opposed to the—what was it?—4 of 7/7 and the—again, what was it?—19 of 9/11) “illegitimates” in detention in the UK. That implies the system might have some teeth.
And, in view of the 100% of terrorist attacks worldwide, why am I just a bit happier that the (previously pretty useless) immigration and entry requirements to the UK are being beefed up?
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 12:45 PMUK Non Schengen =ROI Non Schengen
ROI Schengen UK Non Schengen = Immigration control at Border
Thus
UK Non Schengen =ROI Non SchengenPosted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 12:46 PM‘ have visited so far about 35 countries and i have yet to visit one that drives on our side.
I have lived in france for years, every time i go back to Ireland i feel its ridiculous!’
Which is probably just as well or you might kill yerself!
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 12:55 PMThere is a briefing paper on The implications for Ireland and the UK arising from the development of recent EU policy on migration by Piaras Mac ÉinrĂ, Irish Centre for Migration Studies, NUI Cork, on line. See http://migration.ucc.ie/schengencta.htm
It seems to cover all the developments up to the present.
There also has been a recent debate at http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=26974
Schengen or not, it ain’t gonna affect the immigration lines at JFK or EWR, or the need for “people skills” of the Homeland Security petty-tyrants found there.
Posted by on Oct 24, 2007 @ 12:57 PM
