Saturday, April 12, 2008
Chinese Ambassador walks out of Green convention…
It seems John Gormley’s call for China to talk to the Dalai Lama didn’t go down well… he got up and walked out… There’s concern here now that this might obscure the policy detail of John Gormley’s speech...,
Mick Fealty @ 08:14 PM
El Mat,
As I’ve already said, they could have held that discussion during a part of the conference where they hadn’t invited the ambassador. I doubt after all that he just turned up on spec. He had after all already addressed the conference yesterday when he said what a great thing it was they had done going into government with a party so corrupt that it puts the Italians to shame.
Posted by on Apr 12, 2008 @ 09:59 PMIt seems it’s not only the actions of the Irish Greens who the Chinese are throwing their toys out of the pram over: http://www.praguepost.com/articles/2008/04/09/chinese-officials-demand-apology.php
Posted by on Apr 12, 2008 @ 10:02 PMEl Mat
He’s both.
Garibaldy
That naivety would be remarkable.
Inviting a representative of a foreign government in order to embarrass them to self-aggrandise yourself to your party members.
Disgraceful? Childish? Student politics springs to mind.
Does anyone think that Gormley’s position as an Irish Government Minister played a part in the Chinese Ambassador’s acceptance of that invitation?
The idea that Green Party members would be flattered or impressed by such a show is, unfortunately, not unsurprising.
Posted by on Apr 12, 2008 @ 10:04 PMCheers for that link El MAt. Again, absolutely standard diplomatic practive.
Posted by on Apr 12, 2008 @ 10:05 PMPete,
It would be remarkable. But greens are generally so used to preaching at people without any response that they never thought that someone might not agree that everything they do or say is eminently reasonable.
Posted by on Apr 12, 2008 @ 10:07 PMConor Gearty seems to have written something of relevance on environmentalism and human rights at Comment is Free but the link isn’t working. Maybe later in the evening or tomorrow.
Posted by on Apr 12, 2008 @ 10:14 PMThe Chinese people will be unaware of all the protests being made about China. they will receive the information which their government provides. I was in China in late June 1989 shortlly after Tianamen Square and Chinese people in places like Wuhan and NanJing were unaware that anythng out of the ordinary had happened.
The behaviour of the Greens in delivering their insult to the Chinese Ambassador was crass and showed no understanding of the concept of face or the way in which Chinese people see the world. I am concerned about the future of Olympic sport and the opportunity for our young athletes to fulfil their dreams will be threatened by professional protesters who lack all real conviction.All our experience tells us that such protests and sanctions make matters worse.
Engagement is made more difficult by such protests.Making peace starts with making friends of our enemies no matter how difficult we find that process.
T.RuthPosted by on Apr 12, 2008 @ 10:20 PMRory makes an excellent point, [post25] more on the subject of the Dalai Lama, Tibet etc here
Tibet, China and the West; So many questions.
http://organizedrage.blogspot.com/
Posted by on Apr 12, 2008 @ 10:33 PMChina quakes as the leader of a minor coalition partner in a country of 4 million people on the other side of the planet indulges in a calculated insult to its ambassador!!! Wait for the Long March missile to land on Dublin and start World War 3!!!
Seriously, John Gormley indulges in a silly stunt in the absense of real politics? Why is anyone surprised?
Garibaldy is right, there are formal diplomatic channels for raising protests, and if Gormley really wanted to raise the ante in a way that might actually impact on world affairs, he is part of a government which is part of the world’s biggest economic Union. Calling the Chinese ambassador in for a lecture on Tibet in front of an audience can only be seen as a calculated insult to him and it’s no surprise he walked out.
I’m not starry eyed about China, and after Anna Lo’s son was arrested in London there were some pretty ignorant e-mails sent to Alliance HQ from Chinese students dripping in nationalist venom, lust for violence and condescension. But engaging with China is a far more sensible strategy than student protest politics; the engagement can be critical, especially when China leaves itself open due to the Olympics. And liberal Westerners lecturing the Chinese about Africa, which seems to be the Matt Damon/George Clooney cause du jour is just hypocritical.
Posted by on Apr 12, 2008 @ 11:42 PMAmazing how when the imperial oppressor isn’t the UK or US all the usual suspects demanding liberty and freedom are so willing to kowtow to the despot and to stick the boot into the slave.
Rory you were rather unsympathetic to the protestors in Burma too weren’t you?
Odd when it’s a soi-disant ‘socialist’ trampling all over oppressed minorities it’s suddenly ok. China has as much right to be in Tibet as Israel has to be in the West Bank or Indonesia had to be in East Timor or for that matter Britain had to be in Cork.
Yours and Garibaldy’s assertion that you don’t like ‘feudal’ rulers (fuck me what do you call the Burmese junta or the Chinese government, ‘progressive liberals’?) and so you are prepared to condone the illegal subjugation of oppressed peoples is as ludicrous as asserting the right of the British king to rule Ireland because he didn’t like Gaelic backwardness, he may well be correct in his assertion of the superiority of British society but that still didn’t give him the right to steal someone else’s country.
I’d have thought a die hard anti-imperialist like you Rory could have worked that out, oh I see it’s only British imperialism you object to, you’re rather fond of the Marxist variety I take it.
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 01:41 AMSeemingly for the Green Party, its politically correct to try and end the Chinese claim of possession over Tibet and to condemn human rights abuses by the Chinese government.Also, for the Green’s, its politically correct to ignore a similar British claim of possession over the Six Counties and to ignore human rights abuses by the British government in the North.
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 02:16 AMWould the British have got out of Hong Kong if mainland China had a population of 4.2 million. Don’t f***ing think so…
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 02:31 AMI think the people here are totally misunderstanding the words that were spoken tonight.
Slugger you think this might obsure the policy detail of Gormley’s speech?? This statment is commendable, honourable and a political statement that says so much about the Green Party’s integrity.
Unlike Slugger’s cynicism, I think that John’s speech adressed many issues of substance I think these are the issues that should be discussed this evening instead of falling into the trap of talking aboout the politically fashionable issue of Tibet.
Lets look at the other great things John referred to, the achievements in government, the plans for the future and the ideological concerns of rooting out corruption and bad planning within our jurisdiction
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 03:31 AMIs John Gormley aware of the Dali Lama’s Nazi and CIA connections, or is he just another vacuous echo chamber for what the trendy left deludes itself into thinking is the good and evil of this world?
All this guff about Tibet being the Land of Milk and Honey under the Dali Lama is really tiresome. I would imagine an Irish Ambassador in China wouldn’t take kindly to being lectured on the morality of rendition flights that pass through Ireland.
The Minister is merely creating the impression that Ireland is another bastion of the willfully ignorant and if he can’t conduct himself with even a modicum of decorum then perhaps he should consider his position.
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 05:18 AMThis is the full text of what John Gormley said about China:
“Respect for human rights must extend to all cultures and countries. One country which has been exploited and suppressed and suffered for far too long is Tibet. We condemn unequivocally the flagrant abuse of human rights by the Chinese government and call on the Chinese government to enter dialogue with the Dalai Lama.”
Sensible and moderate comment by any standards. Now, why would the Chinese ambassador pull his walk-out stunt about that fair comment if his intention was not to discourage others from criticising China’s appalling record on human rights by engaging in his tactic?
“I hope our relations with Ireland, including economic relations, can go on.” - Liu Biwei
The ambassador, Liu Biwei, seems to believe that the minister has imposed some form of economic embargo on trade with China he has stated that there is now a question mark over the continuance of China’s trade with his country. Or perhaps he doesn’t believe that an embargo or suchlike was imposed and that he is simply making coy references that China will be vindictive towards those who uphold human rights by criticising those who violate them. In which case, he is no more than a blackguard who is seeking to use power to impose silence on the issue of human rights.
Well done to John Gormley for taking the opportunity to exposes this blackguards for what they are. Politics need more people who put principles before selfish interests, particularly in regard to China’s utterly appalling record on human rights.
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 10:33 AMThe Chinese have 1.3 billion people . The Tibetans have priests and mountains . The Tibetans are being ‘minoritised’ in their own country due to Chinese economic expansion . The Tibetans are not the only minority in China that feel this ‘pressure’. China is not a democracy.
Gormley should have followed official channels had he wished to make a protest. Westerners hope that China through economic growth will eventually become a democracy and thus more tolerant of their ethnic minorities. This would not be in line with the past 2,500 years of Chinese history.
We can be relieved that Gormley did not call for a boycott of Chinee made goods. It’s interesting to note that not a voice has been raised anywhere in the world to ‘boycott’ Chinese made products . Probably because most retail shops in the West would be closing their doors within a week because without made in China products they would have nothing to sell .
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 10:48 AMHarry
You are far to an intelligent a man to believe todays China is a socialist State, so please stop it, you are well aware that socialism stretches from the social democracies of Sweden etc across to the stalinist dictatorships none of which allowed a rampant capitalist economic system as does China today. China can best be termed a capitalist police state with an all powerful state bureaucracy, it will probably end up much like Nazi Germany with competing fiefdoms, although without a powerful leader and then the lid will blow [again].
On Gormley no one has raised the point that he may have raised this issue in Cabinet and had a knock back, if so it makes his behavior even more absurd.
This will not go down well with the Chinese, as they work under the premise if you invite someone into your house you do not pour a bucket of shit over them once they are through the door.
As I wrote on my blog our ignorance over China is both stunning and dangerous as it is emerging as a super power. It would be interesting to know how many universities in Ireland and the UK have departments that solely study China, the language, politics etc.
I really find it hard to believe that western politicians bow at the feet of the Dala Lamai, who to me is just another crackpot religious guy who believes in fairy stories.
Yes the Chinese have behaved appallingly in Tibet, but a knee jerk reaction is not how we deal with this, last week I was talking to an MP and he had no idea that feudalism was practiced until the Chinese invasion and around some monasteries still is.[unbeleivably]
The question we need to ask is would Mr Gormley have invited the British ambassador to the conference and then barracked him over Iraq? If not he was simply grandstanding to the candles and sandals brigand in his own party.
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 11:06 AMHarry F,
Again, I have not said I support what is happening in Tibet. What I have done is criticise Gormley. And the notion that the Dali Lama ruled Tibet as some sort of peace-loving hippy, instead of at the head of a ruthless oppressive class that stymied development and sucked the lifeblood out of the people.
Dave,
I’d take the Greens claim to acting out of principle seriously if they had actually proven capable of protecting Tara, or getting a good deal out of going into coalition. Instead, they just went for the power.
I note also that Ahern said Gormley told him what he was going to say about this. This makes what happened worse and not better.
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 11:07 AMLouth Young Greens
I think that John’s speech adressed many issues of substance I think these are the issues that should be discussed this evening instead of falling into the trap of talking aboout the politically fashionable issue of Tibet.
Perhaps it escaped your notice that it was Mr.Gormley who started the discussion of this fashionable issue.
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 11:17 AMHe is right to say what he said, but you don’t invite someone along to insult them. He knew exactly what he was doing and the likely reaction.
This all serves as a distraction from the Green Party’s own failings on issues like Tara.
They are real Tigers when it comes to China and things far off, but mice when it comes to dealing with FF.
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 11:25 AMCrataegus,
I think you have hit the nail on the head for Gormley must have known the Tibet story would gain legs in the media and www. pretty pathetic but then so is his record in government.
Best regards
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 11:46 AMChina is a fascist state that has no respect for human rights anywhere. As such, their represtantives are legitimate targets.
Harry Flashman is correct to point out the some of the various hypocricies with modern Czechoslovakias like Tibet.
Although Tibet may have been “priest ridden” before Mao’s Sino fascists launched their cultural revolution on them, that does not excuse the antics of the Chinese aggressors.
Unless we boycott Chinese products and reengineer our own systems, we will pay a price in the future.
First off, we should deport all Chinese people. Secon off, we should learn a little of their work ethic. As they have no morals, we have nothing to learn in that respect.
And, as our history shows, little to teach others either.Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 12:09 PMChina, in being a one party state: Neo-communism and the Green Party both share the trait of inhabiting the world of left wing politics (something Labour once did in the pre-1980s). However, that is where the comparison ends. China is an Authoritarian State whereas the Green Party is a Libertarian party – therefore on the balance of probabilities it is good in our representative democracy that a party can still be differentiated by their principles and the events that flow from them!
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 12:29 PMhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/7345011.stm
A Catholic priest missionary, a believer in fairy tales and therefore an obstacle to progress, is no longer an obstacle to progress in Kenya. Is this good news? How many of you wil ltake up your corss and follow HIM? The dalai Lama is also an obstacle to progress, Sinofascist style.
Watch your bread and circuses. The Romans understood you.Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 01:10 PMFair play to former activist John Gormley on this occasion. Maybe there’s still a little bite left in the old dog.
Shame on all who apologise for and try to ‘explain’ Chinese tyranny.
Posted by on Apr 13, 2008 @ 01:15 PM
