Monday, September 10, 2007
Can sport heal old wounds (or enflame them)?
The third of three parties to our A Long Peace? document of 2003, Trevor Ringland had a piece in the Observer yesterday, extolling the capacity of sport to “sustain relationships when others were destroying them”. Yet it would be hard to dissuade anyone who had read our international soccer threads from thinking that, in fact, sport leads to precisely the opposite outcome: i.e. mutual loathing between local rival supporters.
Of course, in Rugby occasional tempests between north and south are kept in-house (and not always in the healthiest of ways). In soccer, the relatively recent success of the Republic’s team has exercised a pull on fans from Northern Ireland, and is even beginning to draw players too, which appears to challenge this notion that sport can heal wounds, even as it doles them out on the pitch.
But Ringland argues that the on-the-ground work can make a real difference:
Much has been achieved already. Belfast Harlequins RFC share their ground with St Bridget’s GAA and Ballymena RFC with the Antrim hurlers. Linfield Football Club have opened up their training pitch for use by a camogie GAA team and Teemore Gaelic club have signed up to the One Small Step [no, not this one] campaign.
A simple notion embraced by all sports - rugby, football, Gaelic and others - is that they represent all the people whether it be playing for the county, province or country. A simple gesture but one that many respond to. It pulls people out of the trenches.
It remains an open question as to whether this bottom up approach is enough to deal with the top down pressures of success/failure that have help to condition the levels of conflict within the soccer code. Irish soccer survives in a fairly fragile ecology. Prior to 1982, only Northern Ireland had managed to claw their way to the finals of a major international tournament, and poaching and swapping players was common. In a poorer commons, conflicts of interest are likely to be all the sharper.
Niall Quinn may have put his finger on something two years ago when he highlighted a key difference between the two codes:
I think the Setanta Cup has been great. At least we are exploring. We didn’t for a long time, and the Setanta Cup seems to be getting more and more backing.
I’m on the Irish Sports Council andwe’re looking at ways of getting involved for next year’s competition. It may be that that’s the route through which we discover each other. It’s as if there’s an imaginary football wall with another stadium that side and we’re playing this side. Maybe the more cross border games that are played the more we understand each other.
That’s what happens in rugby. The teams from Ulster come down here and play club matches all the time. So they are shuffling and crossing all the time, whereas in football it’s only trickling at the moment. But if that’s the best way forward that might lead to young teams getting together.
Judging by the regular inter-fan flaming on Slugger, we have a long way to go.
Mick Fealty @ 12:02 PM
I can’t help but be reminded of this classic statement of the case for the prosecution.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 01:48 PM“A simple notion embraced by all sports - rugby, football, Gaelic and others - is that they represent all the people whether it be playing for the county, province or country. A simple gesture but one that many respond to. It pulls people out of the trenches.”
The problem in football is that it precisely doesn’t do this, because NI doesn’t represent a lot of Nationalists and the Republic definitely doesn’t represent Unionists. The problem is less “mutual loathing”, than “mutual contempt”, which is sadly much worse and the football threads really bring it out.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 01:50 PMtrue kensei, football always brings up the vexed question of identity, which in turn brings up irredentism ( a person advocating the restoration to their country of any territory formerly belonging to it ) which in turn brings out all the innate irate irascibility beneath the fragile peace.
Perhaps we need some iridescent thinking, which comes from the Latin (irid.. meaning rainbow ) and means : showing luminous colors when seen from different angles.Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 02:22 PMOk lets cut to the chase here before we get all of the usual patronising nonsense about the two Irish International football teams, because threads such as this inevitably raise wider issues and we have to deal with them im afraid.
The reason why the football threads are so contentious is because the situation with football here is totally different to either GAA or Rugby. We do not have separate international teams representing Rugby or GAA.
Following an international team anywhere in the world is as much about national identity as sport. Thats why the vast majority of Nationalists in the North choose to follow The Republic of Ireland rather than Northern Ireland.
(ie the thought of going to Windsor Park to support a team whose National Anthem is God Save The Queen, whose fans sing songs about British World War 2 Bombers (Dambusters theme) and tribal chants such as “Ulster till I die”, is totally alien to people like myself and always will be). However I respect the right of those people to do that, I just expect the same respect for my rights to follow the other national team on this island).
The ironic thing about many posters on this forum is that many are from the comfortable (but equally detached) middle-classes and they just love to take the moral high ground whilst conveniently forgetting that, enshrined within the very Core of The Good Friday Agreement, was the right of anyone here to regard themselves as being either Irish or British depending on their cultural and/or political identity.
The same agreement also enshrined the right for those views and beliefs to be respected by all.
It is often the middle classes (on either side) who actually show the most disrespect of all by branding anyone who expresses either Nationalist or Unionist opinions as being sectarian. In doing so they ignore the very agreement that many of them would claim to hold dear…
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 02:22 PMBut in the football threads there is perhaps more surprisingly many examples of mutual respect.
As you have said Kensei I am not represented by NI (or don’t feel I am, whatever) and yet I will say the result of my countrymen is the 2nd I look for.
It’s obvious from outside NI that there is a shared love of many sports across the island that does bring people together and this has increased to a huge decree during the peace so Trevor Ringland is right.
Football is different though is it possible a unified league will arrive and lead to a unified team. A unified professional league would surely see teams doing well in europe? Biggest losers would be the gaa and rugby. (and of course plc’s in manchester, liverpool, london and glasgow)
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 02:28 PMMick
Instinctively I’m not sure I accept the premise, either way.
I don’t think sport furthers mutual contempt or loathing, I think it represents it. A quick different thing.
macswiney
Not sure I accept the premise there either.
The Agreement entitles one to a British or Irish identity, and to respect of that identity. (It also requires one to respect the other identity, which is the bit too many people choose to forget.)
But that is quite different from ‘Unionist’ or ‘Nationalist’ identity. Those are political designations. Those from opposing political designations and viewpoints are perfectly entitled to challenge them.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 02:29 PMim stickin to the line"together were better” what divides Irish tribes is alot less than that of nations that work well together across the world, Its time for us to all grow up and look at the illogicality of two national teams where one nation exists, by that i do not mean disrespect to Unionisim, but that Unionisim is integral to Ireland and Ireland integral to unionisim and infact Ulster/Irish unionisim very unique to Ireland, Very distinctly Irish. Our nation is not of one or two but of many colours, and it will be all the better for it whenever we get bored whinging like 4 year olds who lost der lolly pop 800 years ago.
Yes sporting unity works case in point IRFU, Cricket, GAA ,Hockey, Athletics(to a point), to be fair if it unites I like our national anthem but i would gladly drop it if it caused one man to stumble.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 02:34 PMIJP,
You are missing my point.
There is no difficulty with people having the right to challenge political beliefs, however it is truly nauseating when many choose to use every thread to covertly imply that people who are either proudly nationalist or unionist are therefore sectarian.
My knowledge and experience of the backgrounds of many posters on this forum is that those who are most guilty of this attitude are from the self styled “middle-ground” of local politics. ie those who feel free to pontificate on just about every subject, without ever having the courage to fully describe,justify or even explain what their own actual beliefs are.
Such is their right, but i will not have them labelling me (or others) as being in some way sectarian because we are proud of our identity(s) and seek to defend our beliefs.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 02:39 PMIJP
“I don’t think sport furthers mutual contempt or loathing, I think it represents it. A quick different thing.”
I don’t think that it’s quite that clear cut. I think your right in that it brings out that which is already there, but I think it’s also perfectly capable of making things worse at the same time, even simply by presenting an opportunity.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 02:43 PMSport is war by other means. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding himself.
Never mind national teams, the mutual loathing between football club sides - in any country you care to name - bears testament to that.
There are lesser degrees of this loathing, and sometimes not, in every sport.The beauty of sport is that it is war which doesn’t entail loss of life (normally).
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 02:45 PMMick,
So that’s a vote for healing of wounds from me.
Alan,
Agree about dumping the anthem. Flag of Green White and Orange followed by an anthem in Irish….. no sense does this a make. As for Irish Unionism becoming the dynamic it should always have been all over the island, i wish.
MacSwiney,
What you say about yourself I can easily identify with, what you are trying to say about the topic I don’t get, sorry.
What is ironic?
Cutting to the chase, sport source of hope or not/not really either way?
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 02:45 PMND, (dumping is a bit strong, replace is nicer we have to be diplomatic in all things) Personally the tricolour couldnt be a fairer symbol of peace and i would dislike to ever see such an aspiration “dropped” but if a better flag represnting peace between community lines can be designed I would be for it. You have to understand in NI the tricolour has been very misrepresented and has is tainted to those not familiar with the roots of the tricolour.
Irelands call is a satisfactory anthem for the time being.
I do believe Irish-Ulster unionisim is unique to Ireland its to be found virtualy nowhere in Britain(except tiny pockets of NI ex-pats) so even unionisim is alot more Irish than it would like to let on.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 03:18 PMIt is often said of players, but applies equally to fans.
“Sport does not build character. It reveals it.”
This is neither a good thing, not a bad thing. The moral virtue in revealing character depends frankly entirely on the character beign revealed.
One can no more blame sport for the existence of sectarianism than one can blame the steam for the existance of the kettle.
The reality in this place is fairly simple. while sectarianism is widespread throughout class and creed, like other anti-social behavious it tends to find its most notable, violent and unpleasent outlets in poorer urban communities.
Its as true here as it is anywhere else in the anglosphere.
And poorer urban communities, by and large, support soccer more than rugby (rather more middle class) and gaelic games (rather more rural).
In addition, there can be no doubt that the existance of two seperate and competing national teams and organisations provides totems for that bias; but as I said earlier, simply because the FAI/IFA devide reveals sectarianism does not mean it causes it; by extension I have strong doubts a united soccer team would heal many wounds - we cannot enforce collegiate feeling - if we manage mutual respect and a hint of friendliness it would be a start!
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 03:29 PMI’m not so sure about this. While I can watch and sometimes enjoy an occassional rugby match on television in the comforts of my home, I could never envisage drinking with any of the players or supporters, much less, heaven forfend, having them round to supper. As for my daugther marrying one…....
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 04:45 PMNever mind national teams, the mutual loathing between football club sides - in any country you care to name - bears testament to that.
There are lesser degrees of this loathing, and sometimes not, in every sport.
Quite; England v Scotland, Holland v Germany, Croatia v Bosnia (this game provoked three days of inter-communal rioting in Mostar a couple of years ago) are just three examples of this “mutual loathing” mention earlier, so really, we aren’t on our own here folks; in fact compared to those just mentioned, our rivalry is rather tame
I’m also not at all convinced that the majority of NI fans would not rather beat the England than the Republic and apart from a few pathological obsessive internet warriors, do the majority ROI fans who live in Northern Ireland really, really care how well or badly NI as a team do? I sincerely doubt it, the fans who live in the Republic certainly couldn’t give a tinker’s curse about us.
Of course, it’s still all good fun winding each other up (ohhh…the middle-class Alliance boys won’t like that, but it’s true). I’ve spent most of the day hiding from the same ROI fans whom I was serenading with tuneful 5-2s after their Cyprus holiday earlier on in the campaign, but it’s exactly the same thing every other Monday with our club teams and as long as it stays within the boundaries of healthy disrespect, I really can’t see any harm in it.
Cutting to the chase, sport source of hope or not/not really either way?
Not really either way, sport is sport and if you want to cure the core problems in our society you’ll be needing to a bit more than just making sure we all support the same team, singing Kumbia and eating our prawn sarnies together.
Whatever did happen to the Belfast Giants by the way?Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 04:56 PMMacswiney
I totally agree with evrything you have said.Alan Anderson
I would say that the tri-colour has been more than tainted by what has happen in our country over the last 30 years or more. Yes and likewise wih the union flag.It ( tricolour) will never be acceptable to working class unionists.What exactly have all Ireland teams in middle class games like rugby, cricket and hockey ever won? As far as i can see nothing. I think the all ireland bowling team have won a few championships and they use the Cross of St. Patrick as their flag.
It will take generations for the hurt that has been felt in working class communities to go away so the chances of an all Ireland football team coming about soon is zero.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 07:18 PMRory - your daughter courting ? !!!
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 07:24 PMTrevor’s piece is a good one, highlighting the many positive consequences of sporting initiatives- as one lucky enough to have worked with the Peace Players during the Spring, I can tell you Trevor’s spot on in recognising how positive sporting energy can produce heart-warming outcomes.
The football threads on Slugger have often narrowed in focus to a verbal sparring session primarily due to what I believe is a mutual fear by unionists and nationalists that identities are being challenged/ under threat- in this sense, the football threads bear little difference to many other threads (hence the reason many northern fans react angrily to calls for a unified team for the island and why northern fans of the Republic have reacted with anger to the IFA’s attempts to prevent them representing their country.)
That said, some very interesting and positive contributions can be found on such threads, if one is willing to scroll through the diatribes.
Niall Quinn may be right about the Setanta Cup providing a bridge to better soccer relations on the island. In the meantime, respecting our different football preferences, as opposed to ridiculing and/ or challenging the legitimacy of such allegiances, will go a long way to taking the heat out of the football rows.
Incidentally, wind-up merchants were clearly in action at the weekend. In Brataslava, a UVF flag could clearly be seen prominently displayed on the half-empty terraces amongst the Slovak fans, whilst at least one tricolour was to be seen amidst the Latvian fraternity in Riga.
If we get to the stage where everyone is genuinely delighted at two sets of Irishmen playing in a European Champsionships tournament, then we will have made a good start.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 07:41 PMKensei
Yes, I would accept your 4.43PM amendment.
I don’t really accept either premise fully, that’s the point.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 08:05 PMI think that we should have the vision to move several steps forward and adopt the flag and anthem of Poland. Many of the canny tradesmen have already started advertising in languages other than Ulster Scots already. On the streets you can hear more Polish than Irish. The Catholic Church has welcomed non-nationals??? with open arms and provided pastors. So let’s go Polish while we are still in the majority.Some of my best friends are Polish and my daughter is courting one.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 08:11 PMChris Donnelly
Totally agree. There are already plenty of people who can support both national teams. I will always support NI first but the ROI are second.Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 08:24 PM......and another thing. I accept that us straw chewing rural types are not the brightest but I can’t get my head round how the province can be a nation when it’s not even a country.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 08:44 PM“us straw chewing rural types are not the brightest”
Apparently not, or you wouldn’t even bother with that sort of nonsense. It’s been done to death, grow up.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 10:20 PMAll the same, I detect a cooling of passions.
For NI v ROI. remember that night in 1992 with Kernaghan and all?
Or remember Belfast Celtic.
The Old Firms games are down in temperature.
Linfield play Drogheda and pints in the bar afterwards.
The only thing that gets punched these days is a keyboard.
Posted by on Sep 10, 2007 @ 10:49 PMAgree with sentiments that the football thread has degenerated into another bickering thread.
Perhaps the newly proposed ‘Celtic cup’ might just be a success. Gordon Smith the new SFA man seems to be on board.
Posted by on Sep 11, 2007 @ 06:06 AM
