Thursday, March 27, 2008
Brown’s Scottish Catholic problem?
Sorry, another Telegraph link. But Damian Thompson’s line on Gordon Brown’s reasons for proposing an end to the Act of Succession: he’s fearful of losing a solid base of Catholic Labour voters in central Scotland… Over to you?
Mick Fealty @ 10:46 PM
Well the Act of Succession should be scrapped.
However, this smacks of more Brown desperation to keep the Union together.
Brown needs the 80 or so Labour MP’s in Scotland for his majority. With the SNP pressing ahead and calling for referendum, its a panicky time for Labour.( broadsheet comment )Personally I don’t know what this uncle tom is doing in England; why doesn’t he bugger off back to Scotland and stand as an MP there, and back his country’s push for independence( tabloid comment)
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 11:17 PM“stand as an MP there”
He is an MP there. Do you mean MSP?
Posted by on Mar 27, 2008 @ 11:39 PM“Meanwhile, the Scottish Nationalists are working hard to ditch their anti-Papist prejudices.”
It’s always been bullshit and it still is - SNP never been sectarian. Don’t export your nonsense please.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 12:46 AMThe SNP just did a load of PQs for me.
Being a bit sectarian is ok, a bit of local color, a frisson of faux difference.
Where would it end, it wasn’t, would the Sox fans in Chicago have to like the Cubs?
No, that’s like supporting Rangers.
Except of course Rangers ain’t gay.
Unlike the Cubs.
G.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 01:53 AMDewi,
“It’s always been bullshit and it still is - SNP never been sectarian. Don’t export your nonsense please. “
Thats what I used to think - but that is the convinced view of many scottish catholics who will offer much evidence.
It’s always a puzzle to me how it is that the Catholic population is more Unionist than the Protestant population because of my conditioning by the situation in Ireland.
Also Dewi, anothe puzzler for me is strength of anti-welsh language/nationalism feeling amongst the Cardiff-Irish.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 08:10 AMCan anyone make a case for retention of this seriously outdated Act?
>>This is the first time for decades that Catholics in Scotland – traditionally the most loyal of Labour voters – have been faced with a Protestant Scottish PM who cannot hide his contempt for aspects of Catholic teaching. Meanwhile, the Scottish Nationalists are working hard to ditch their anti-Papist prejudices.<<
Wow! Apart from Catholics being the most loyal of labour voters, What a load of keek! When has Billy Britain Brown ever shown contempt for aspects of Catholic teaching? And the SNP do not have above mentioned prejudices, so what’s to ditch? Considering the additional comments that followed, I’d say Thompson was playing to the gallery.
Labour has controlled Scotland from the central belt since the 50-60’s, Catholics are the anchor of this majority. However considering the distancing of the Catholic church at the last Scottish election that simply screamed ‘DON’T VOTE lABOUR’ their days are numbered. my local priest openly calling for a vote for anyone but labour, and in private conversations endorsing the SNP. Only older Catholics held their loyalty at the last election, with Glasgow and Edinburgh incredibly both going to the SNP on the popular vote for the first time. This could not have been achieved if people of my generation of Catholics had voted with our parents(one of mine anyhow and both parents-in-law) had voted Labour.
With as expected the scrapping of the council tax and pensioners paying nothing or very little as opposed to the high hundreds or over a thousand pounds they are now paying a year. Expect the older generation of Catholic Labour voters to erode further. They are witnessing how Scots govern Scots for Scots, and they seem to like it.
Sammy
>>Also Dewi, another puzzler for me is strength of anti-welsh language/nationalism feeling amongst the Cardiff-Irish.<<
I’d put aspects of this down to a colonial mindset and divide and rule.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 08:32 AM>>Thats what I used to think - but that is the convinced view of many scottish catholics who will offer much evidence.<<
Sammy
Yep, many Catholics hold this view, but it is mainly based on old fears and perhaps ignorance. An independent Scotland that was seriously anti-Catholic could/would have been a dangerous place for Catholics especially upto the fifties. Many would look to the six counties and fear discrimination to a similar level, voting to stay with England was therefore in their best interests. Thankfully we as a nation have emerged from this kind of backward medieval type thinking.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 08:38 AMmy local priest openly calling for a vote for anyone but labour
Why?
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 09:25 AMWhy? As in why are they meddling in politics?
I believe that community leaders, religious or otherwise should try and guide and inform on a certain level. Many disagree, including the old labourites arguing on the chapel steps after mass.
Why? As in what caused the fall out of love between the church in Scotland and labour?
Where to begin?, abortion and genetics seem to be high on the list though Willow.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 09:32 AMRegarding the ‘Act of Succession’ sure wouldn’t we all love to see a papist back on the throne of England, and sure why not!
The Protestant guilt of beheading one British monarch and unloyaly siding with a foreigner over a British monarch in 1690 must be insurmountable on their conscious today. For deep in their psyche must be a cause of shame and guilt.
No wonder we get the neverending and over exagerated outpourings of unflinching loyalty to the ‘British’ crown by Unionists today. For it really hides their act of betrayal.Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 10:11 AMPrince Eoghan
“I’d put aspects of this down to a colonial mindset and divide and rule”
Not sure if I follow you here but sometimes, if reluctantly, we Irish have to take responsibility for your own behaviour - much as I like myself to blame the Englezes for everything.
But I do largely agree with you about Scottish catholics lookng at Non Iron and seeing a Scotish parliament potentially behaving similarly. The problem for the boy Gordon is that this viewpoint is being replaced by the Braveheart generation who may switch sides.
However, I am led to believe that there was considerable job discrimation in Scotland in ceratins areas and sectors which was a contributory reason for Catholics remaining loyal to labour and Ireland and being quite anti-scottish in some regards.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 10:28 AMPrince
Why? As in why are they meddling in politics?
No. Why? As in why did he call for a vote for anyone but Labour?
Why? As in what caused the fall out of love between the church in Scotland and labour? Where to begin?, abortion and genetics seem to be high on the list though Willow.
And how do the policies of the Tories, Lib Dems, SNP, SSP, Greens, etc., differ from those of Labour in respect of abortion and genetics?
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 10:49 AM“I believe that community leaders, religious or otherwise should try and guide and inform on a certain level. Many disagree, including the old labourites arguing on the chapel steps after mass.”
It would probably be better Prince if Priests (or Ministers for that matter) kept out of politics in Scotland and stick to what they are qualified to teach - especially if ending up like Northern Ireland is something you fear…
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 10:58 AM“Thankfully we as a nation have emerged from this kind of backward medieval type thinking. “
So we can look forward to anti-Catholic discrimination after the Canadian model instead?
I really don’t think it is that simple, a half-way house is quite attractive.
Catholics need to be careful, being the roadmap.
G.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 12:46 PMThe SNP only started garnering votes in the 1960’s, by which time the West of Scotland sectarianism was on the wane (in terms of employment discrimination) along with Glasgow’s heavy industry. The only reason I can think that the SNP might be seen by some as sectarian would be that some of its members are against “faith” schools- just like members of other parties.
Brown can call on 40 Scottish MP’s (out of 59) at Westminster, and he’ll have just about as many next time unless there’s a Labour meltdown of 1983 proportions. Non-heartland seats like Dumfries and Ochil look vulnerable, but most in the West of Scotland laager are as safe as they come.
The Cardinal’s influence is somewhat over-rated by the media and by Labour politicians.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 01:44 PMPrince Eoghan,
I read this article the other day that may be of interest:
http://britologywatch.wordpress.com/
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 01:58 PMThe Cardiff Irish.
Once an almost completely self-contained community, now almost completely integrated, save for a few bar-room braggards around Roath.
Well, like the Scots, they were Catholic with a big C and they noticed the Nationalists liked their bibles a bit too much, and the Irish, with an innate understanding of clannishness, looked with suspicion on the lack of diversity in the Welsh surname department. Felt happier with the English running the show, and again, like the Tammalloys, saw what happened in Stormont and thought, well, no thanks.
Today though, they increasingly vote as this ex-resident of Crwys Road did - PC.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 02:17 PMAntiChrist,
whenever I hear any Kaydiff anti-Welsh sentiment expressed I always do a quick lineage check and often very disappointingly find some Irishery.
It may also be a factor that the Kaydiff Irish may have been on the receiving end of some nonconformist anti-papist feelings.
But as you say things are a movin’ in the right direction.
p.s. What is this ‘Tammalloys’ malarkey of which you speak?
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 02:49 PMYou’re right Sam. But Kairdiff isn’t Wales like Dublin isn’t Ireland. The Tammalloys or Tim Molloys are Celtic supporters who sing:
Forever and ever
We’ll follow the voice
Of Glasgow Celtic
The Tammalloys
And we’ll no’ be mastered
By no orange bastard
We’ll keep the green flag
Flying hereAnd are nowadays chucked out by the stewards, presumably because of the use of a double negative which implies that they will, in fact, be mastered by an orange bastard.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 04:11 PMAct of Settlement, surely?
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 05:57 PMBrown needs the 80 or so Labour MP’s in Scotland for his majority.
There are 80 MPs in Scotland? News to me.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 06:11 PMThe Prime Minister is now trying to woo his Roman Catholic MPs by suggesting changes to the Act of Settlement. Pursuit of this ill thought out strategy could well finish up with the United Kingdom having Roman Catholic monarchs in perpetuity as the Pope’s rule of “Ne Temere” would apply.
The consequent results of this ill thought out attempt, no doubt to help ease his embryo bill through against The Roman Catholic Church’s will, is to give its MPs an inducement by rewriting the Act of Settlement and throws up a veritable myriad of potential obstacles. For instance where would we crown a new monarch if he was a Roman Catholic? How could we swear allegiance to a monarch who would be obeisant to the head of a foreign state, who is elected by cardinals from foreign countries? Which denomination is the principle church of the military? The monarch is Head of the Church of England and it is not for a Presbyterian lead cabinet to dictate to our church how it goes about its affairs. We have a General Synod for that purpose. The list of problems is endless.
So much so, that if the Prime Minister continues to dig this hole he will never recover us from the mess we are already in, which appears to be totally insoluble already. He seems to be intent on giving away our much cherished sovereignty away to not only Brussels but also The Vatican.
John K Lund. Moira Co. Armagh. Northern Ireland.
.Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 08:00 PMEarth to headbanger Lund, Árd Mhacha.
It’s principal in this instance, not principle.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 09:03 PMSammy - zzz -forget the thread - what on earth were Ulster on ?
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 11:21 PM“For instance where would we crown a new monarch if he was a Roman Catholic? How could we swear allegiance to a monarch who would be obeisant to the head of a foreign state, who is elected by cardinals from foreign countries? “
I don’t see the problem. On the the other hand, Franensteinism is a step too far.
Few of the hierarchy in England pay a blind bit of notice to the Pope, which is one of the reasons we have bishops in Portsmouth angling for legal brothels.
In any case, our problem is Big Brother Number 1 in West Belfast, as opposed to any prospective King Paddy of England.
Posted by on Mar 28, 2008 @ 11:30 PM
