Saturday, August 11, 2007
“Black armbands have a history.”
In the Irish Times, Susan McKay points out that tomorrow’s ‘March for Half-Truth’ by Sinn Féin is, in reality, their annual commemoration of “10 republicans who died on hunger strike in 1981, so to take part is to show solidarity with the IRA as well as with the victims of the British forces.” That places it in an area of activity identified previously by Liam Clark. Susan McKay also links in the on-again-off-again-on-again [but don’t tell anyone - Ed] deal over OTRs and she’s critical of the latest appropriation of victims
But what is the campaign for truth? Adams, who says he was never in the IRA, referred to the fact that some of the victims’ groups taking part in the march and rally are calling for “an international-based, independent truth commission”. He adds that this is something that Sinn Féin “will look carefully at”. But why the caution? Perhaps because although Sinn Féin needs to reassure the victims from its own community that it hasn’t left them behind, the truth is, it doesn’t want a truth commission any more than the British government does.
Remember the on-the-runs legislation a few years ago? Sinn Féin signed up for that to get its exiles back, and then had to abandon it when victims’ groups and the SDLP pointed out that this was a law that would make it impossible to pursue the truth about collusion. The party is not going to make that mistake again.
All the signs are that the British and Irish governments both take the shabby view that the new powersharing regime at Stormont is best protected by leaving the past alone for the foreseeable future.
Sinn Féin can safely seem to support calls for a commission, confident it isn’t going to happen.
McKay is not, as far as I can see, opposed to demanded the truth.. as I’ve noted out before..
Anyway, how can it possibly be right to ignore evidence of such corruption, and to refuse to learn the real history of the Troubles? The British will look bad, Sinn Féin has dirty hidden history and so has the DUP. But if our new democratic institutions aren’t strong enough to withstand the truth, they aren’t strong enough.
.. just opposed to demanding half-truth.
Black armbands have a history. Those campaigning to force Britain to tell the truth on its vicious part in the Northern violence need all the support they can get.
This is a just cause, and Sinn Féin’s appropriation of it serves it badly.
Pete Baker @ 10:01 AM
Yes crumb but why do I have a feeling they used this very case to arrive at their staistical analsys
Kind of flawed arguement there
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 04:44 PMPrince I think the farthest cruimh searches for truth is scratching his head to find out whether his pipe has fallen down on the Left or Right of his PC desk.
and sweet Justice is when his legendary soups last him 3 days without going off ;)still a confidence booster much needed for Scotland.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 04:46 PM“suicide is sometimes possible even if there are. multiple gunshot wounds to the head.”
A finite element model investigation of gunshot injury
Authors: Raul, Jean-SĂ©bastien1; Deck, Caroline; Meyer, Franck; Geraut, Annie; Willinger, RĂ©my; Ludes, BertrandSource: International Journal of Legal Medicine, Volume 121, Number 2, March 2007 , pp. 143-146(4)
I’ll take their word ahead of the ramblings of parcifal
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 04:51 PM4 deaths in a short period of time will rightly come under suspicion in any event. However Parcifal’s original comment was aimed at the truth telling ability of the British army in general.
Let’s test that ability in banner!
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 04:52 PMseeing as we’re doing hyperlinks, the cruelty at DeepCut barracks is well documented:
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=8660
and there remains much controversy over the deaths of the 4 young recruits:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3743131.stm
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 04:56 PM“However Parcifal’s original comment was aimed at the truth telling ability of the British army in general. “
he made a very definite claim which I have shown to be untrue.
“He had 2 bullet holes in his head, and it was recorded as suicide, which is impossible.”
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 05:04 PMSF are at least attempting to redress the balance, having been the victims of Unionists and British Gov’t propaganda over the last 30/40 years.
So the PIRA didn’t engage in a 30-year terror campaign, murdering 1,700 people? It was all “propaganda”?
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 05:12 PMLet’s cool down a bit. How the fuck did you lose to scotland ?
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 05:25 PMwillow, no you miss my point which is that the Brit/Unionist propaganda machine has characterized republicans as the baddies for 30 odd years, the overwhelming evidence is now to the contrary,
see so the false moral high ground is slipping away forever. see prince’s link
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=12688
You can’t recover it.
Hands up son !ok cruimh you get your pedant award, bravo
Would you like to tackle the culture of bullying, the real stuff behind these sad deaths, and what that says about the supposed high standards.. or is that all a fabrication? and the work of MSM leftie dhimmi surrender monkeys… ring a bell?Oh sorry your on summer vacation from *ahem* the spiders web… lol
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 05:29 PMwillow, no you miss my point which is that the Brit/Unionist propaganda machine has characterized republicans as the baddies for 30 odd years, the overwhelming evidence is now to the contrary,
Um, they were the baddies. They murdered 1,700 people; injured, maimed, tortured and exiled thousands more; destroyed businesses; destroyed property; destroyed lies.
No evidence indicates otherwise. It happened.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 05:33 PMWell said WIllowfield
Facts are facts
I would like to see an Independent Investigation into the links between the IRA and the Roman Catholic CHurch, Free State, Libya where the Deputy First Minister was forced to answer. I would like Sean O’Callaghan to be interviewed and his evidence fully investigated.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 05:37 PM“ok cruimh you get your pedant award, bravo “
it’s not pedantry - it was that sort of “evidence” about cot deaths that had women in jail for crimes they didn’t commit. Professor Meadows ring any bells ?
Certainly lots to be suspicious about in the cases mentioned - but foolish claims do not help.
as for
“the overwhelming evidence is now to the contrary, see so the false moral high ground is slipping away forever. see prince’s link “
the SWP ? ;)
The provos were responsible for the most revolting murder of the troubles - they abducted two children from school and interrogated and shot a child with a severe learning disability in the head and left him to die in the grounds of Belfast Zoo.
So they and their supporters like you have NO right to even mention “moral high ground”
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 05:41 PMBritish government collusion with the RC church over Father James Chesney, the priest responsible for the Claudy bombing. Maybe Martin would like to tell us the facts of the Claudy bombing ?
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 05:44 PMwillow, I’m not disputing your figures, am giving you some latitude. So fair’s fair --now when you’ve read that link I’ve given you
“The inside story of British death squads in Northern Ireland”.. we can talk some more ok?Cruimh you’ve won a pawn, ok have another one.. I don’t dispute what you’ve claimed about the children but you don’t win the game by denying John Blacks claims, with SWP dismissals.
Bishop takes pawn, now you’re back to only one up…
want to to continue?Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 05:51 PMCan you see a ‘certain person’ who in the troubles literature is referred to as the IRAs “Lord High Executioner” but who has reinvented himself as “writer” - taking part in a Truth Commission?
Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 05:58 PMA truth commission will not be set up because it does not have the support of SF or the British Government.
Instead we can have separate inquiries into specific atrocities such as Omagh and no doubt in years to come SF/IRA will tell us of their involvement in this and subsequent cover-up.
We can then pass judgement.Posted by on Aug 11, 2007 @ 06:57 PMI don’t know why i’m even getting involved here, but I have to point something out, something blatantly obvious.
Almost every one of you who have contributed to this thread are TOXIC! There is a sort of malignant emotional disorder pervading every sentence! I know the Troubles here have caused a lot of bitterness and division, but even from a pragmatic perspecitve you must see that the adversarial approach taken to resolving such issues is counter-productive. Charity, compassion, perspectice and objectivity begets the same in return. This is ultimately the only way to compromise and concilliation. You guys would get far further in your discussions of these important events if you could afford the “other side” just a little bit of respect.
What we need here is a “warts and all” shared narrative. It will be hard to reach this position, and there will always be disagreements over exactly what did happen (and why). Yet, in the process of establishing such a shared story, “taking the plank out of our own eye” would go a long way to encouraging the “other side” to take the plank out of theirs.
One to ponder. Please do.
Posted by on Aug 12, 2007 @ 12:02 PMWell said Christopher Eastwood, a bit of common sense at last, this thread until now has been an exercise in using the idea of a truth commission as a weapon.
Posted by on Aug 12, 2007 @ 12:53 PMTo CE
It is hard to disagree with anything you say but there remains a huge problem and that is how do we get to the stage where we get the “warts and all shared narrative”.
At the moment that is a pipe dream and being nice to one another will not be the answer.
We do need a forum where people can tell the truth and be respected for doing so. If necessary an immunity should be given against any prosecution.
We want to know what went on and what was done in our names by Government,Political Parties and most important of all Paramilitaries.
At this time of the year the people of Omagh are coming together to remember their loved ones.
Are they any nearer to finding the truth of what happened?
We suffer with them and give assurance that they will not be forgotten.
Is there a more divided society in Europe? I don’t know and are we to wait for another generation to take up the task of creating a society which is free from rancour and bitterness.
This is is depressing.Posted by on Aug 12, 2007 @ 01:24 PMParcifal
Unattributed allegations in ... The Socialist Worker ... wise up.
In any case, none of which alters the undisputed facts presented to you about the crimes of the Provisional “republican” movement.
Posted by on Aug 12, 2007 @ 01:28 PMwillowfield
I think you’ll find the thread is about a March to ask questions about collusion; so the link is useful reading, doesn’t sound like you got very far?Posted by on Aug 12, 2007 @ 08:37 PMCruimh I question your continued use of Wikipedia as a reliable source. Wiki is open to anyone to edit as they see fit. I could go in and edit it to say that magic pixies make multiple bullets follow the same path, this does not make it so. Wiki is a good start as looking for evidence, but it too unreliable to be the end all and be all.
Posted by on Aug 13, 2007 @ 09:29 AMPounder - I’m selective, I usualy cross check - and you’ll notice I gave another reference. But I agree - many Wiki citations, especially in history and politics, should not be treated as gospel !
Posted by on Aug 13, 2007 @ 09:39 AMTruth and nothing but the Truth
Can the right honourable MR McGuiness tell us some of the following:-
(1). Why 4 IRA Volunteers were sacrificed in
Clonoe in 1992 making a propaganda Video
attacking a Military installation in
Coalisland?(2). Why a Senior PSF Tout in Ballinderry was
spirited off side to protect the good name of
local Sinn Fein?(3). Why the people that organised, carried out
and lied about the death of Robert McCartney
continue to be protected?(4). Why Senior members of the PIRA such as the
Yuppie, Spike, The Slab and others still
continue to prosper from the proceeds of
extortion, smuggling etc?Just a sample from the Republican side of many questions that need answering!
If truth is the Provisional Goal can we start with these or are the answers just too gorey for the PSF mob to get off their chests
March for Half Truth (Good Title)!
Posted by on Aug 13, 2007 @ 06:02 PMMY ONLY QUESTION TO GERRY AND THE BOYS IS CAN I KICK SOME OF THE OLD BOYS IN NORTH BELFAST IN THE NUTS AND NOT GET IN TROUBLE ...I OF COURSE WILL APOLOGIZE AFTER AND IF THEY MARCH THRU MY AREA I WILL COME CLEAN AND ADMIT IT WAS COMMING TO THEM AND ANY WAY THEY REALLY NEVER DID HAVE ANY BALLS TO START WITH .THEY ALLWAYS HID BEHIND THE UP THE IRA CLOAK YEA YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE THE LITTLE NAPOLEONS FROM NEWINGTON ..MAYBE THEY CAN BEGIN TO TELL SOME TRUTHS EH KEVIN
Posted by on Aug 13, 2007 @ 07:00 PM
