Friday, December 28, 2007
Bertie draws the border back in…
Last time I was stopped at the border would have been by a single Garda around 1990, probably after a major attack somewhere in Northern Ireland. He was stopping most cars just before the Carrickdale hotel creating a tailback that went right back across the actual boarder. When we eventually got up to him he engaged my Derby born English colleague in a long conversation about the mixed fortunes of Derby County (the Guard’s favourite team), and after a decent interval he waved us on. Yesterday, travelling on a Belfast to Dublin coach we were pulled in by a Garda with the words ‘Immigration’ emblazoned on his back and asked for passports and other forms of photo ID. It’s a development that has not been covered in the media, yet it would appear to have important implications both for Schengen debate, and the future of the Common Travel Area.
Bertie Ahern seems convinced that most of the immigration travel is north to south, although official figures suggest it is about equal each way. So is Dublin preparing to draw a hard land border back in, in preference to sharing protocols and information with British? There is no sign of immigration control on east west flights between Dublin and Britain, yet at least.
Mick Fealty @ 01:45 PM
People have concernsthat doesn’t make them racist
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 01:50 PMYes, the catholic church created a problem, with birth certs but lots of immigrant children are catholic too You are basing your argument on skin colour. The discrimination arose due to religion. But I take your point, I did only catch a small end of the programme on you tube and missed the full debate. I stand corrected on that one.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 02:19 PMIllegal immigration into Ireland is an offence committed almost definitionally by people of swarthy hue.
What, you mean like Russians and Ukrainians?
I’d like to stop contributions from Immigrants like this
So would I. I’d also like to stop contributions from Irish people like this - you aren’t so stupid as to think benefit fraud is a purely immigrant problem? I’d also like to stop Irish people doing the same thing in Britain or Canada.
What is your point?
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 02:47 PM“you aren’t so stupid”
So far in this debate there has been no personal abuse, people can argue without it. Rephrase your question or I won’t debate you.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 02:56 PMFair enough - being concerned does not a racist make. As to immigrants being involved in crime and social security fraud - I’m sure the problem isn’t among immigrants alone. Ireland’s greatest gangsters seem to be domestic creations. As RTE reports the pattern for immigrants is of low take up of social security benefits. Les Allamby (Director NI’s Law Centre) also comments on Romanian access to social security being severely limited and contributing to child poverty.
Yet, in the South, non-nationals make up almost 10pc of the Irish population, and the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism believes there are currently up to 200,000 migrant workers living here, paying about €500m each year in taxes. Mr Hughes (IIB Bank economist) has recently pointed out that despite the dip in consumer sentiment, spending was strong. He puts this down to the increasing numbers at work in the economy, with the influx of migrant labour helping to keep retail spending buoyant.
The Economist has recently published a review of immigration to the EU that’s heavily critical of the xenophobia it has created in some EU countries. The article points to immigration being insufficient and likely to be too short lived due to rising labour costs in the East. The Bank of England has recently observed the positive contribution made by migrant workers.
When it comes to immigration you have to be careful what you wsh for.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 03:04 PM“When it comes to immigration you have to be careful what you wsh for”
I agree, some excellent points. Let me read your links and get back to you. As to the social security fraud you are right its not a total immigrant problem but when added to the cost of interpeters (2million Euro) on( bogusasylum crackdowns, not knowning how many immigrants in the country,( <ahref="http://www.independent.ie/national-news/big-jump-in-prison-numbers-as-more-are-jailed-1252308.html">eight</a>
percent of prisoners in Irish jails are not of Irish descent each prisoner costing 91,000 euro each year)Social security, etc etc etc one wonders how long this can be sustained.For the record my problem is not immigration, but huge uncontrolled numbers entering and we simply don’t know who they are or how many. And no I don’t condone it by the Irish in other parts of the world either.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 03:31 PMMrs Doyle - your first link doesn’t appear to work but I looked at your second link. From your own reference - less than 1.5% of the prison population consists of those held for immigration issues and the rate of criminality is shown to be lower among immigrants - 8%.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 03:43 PMSo far in this debate there has been no personal abuse, people can argue without it.
I don’t know about that. Posting an isolated link of a single crime committed by a single group of immigrants sounds like personal abuse of a whole group of people to me. Presumably with the intention of implying that immigrants tend to be criminals; I see no other point.
Oh, and you need to get your arguments from somewhere other than Hibernia Girl.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 03:58 PMNot all my arguments were from Hibernia girl but yes I read Hibernia girl. The problem with that is?
As to the link I already addressed those points to someone else, unless of course posting a link that I read about on Hibernia girl is abusive? Perhaps I ought to read more of you on slugger and learn how men cannot phrase an argument without rudeness.
Your point?
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 04:22 PM“Oh, and you need to get your arguments from somewhere other than Hibernia Girl. “
Best come clean then and tell you some of the other links are from you tube and google.
Phew! Glad to get that of my chest.
*rolleyes*Now unless you can be civil don’t address me again.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 04:28 PMSammy Morse, you will notice I included the word ‘almost’ in my description. That allows for a few exceptions.
For a country which has not yet managed to absorb fully the immigrants of the 17th century, obviously immigration into Ireland is something that has to be kept under tight control. Or perhaps you think Connacht Leinster and Munster should also shed six counties to some occupying power?
Ideally this would be an immigration of individuals, who would rapidly by marriage be absorbed into the general population. Indeed this has been the rule up till now: my great-aunts married Italians and Swiss without ever leaving Ireland.
What has to be clamped down on are immigrants from cultures where there is a tradition of selling brides for immigration purposes (read ‘arranged marriages’); cultures which despise Irish and Catholics and consider themselves superior to them; and people who are so ethnically and culturally different that generations hence their descendants will still consider themselves outsiders. This is for their good as much as it is for ours. Otherwise Ireland will go the same way as Yugoslavia (some might say, it already has).
A good deal of discrimination is required: and yet, a whole tribe has sprung up which thinks that discrimination is the greatest of all sins. It may be wrong in polite society, but it is absolutely necessary in immigration control.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 05:16 PM“For the record my problem is not immigration, but huge uncontrolled numbers entering and we simply don’t know who they are or how many.”
Mrs Doyle heartily agree-which brings us back to the land border between the ROI and UK.
What to do?Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 06:03 PMThey never stop the train though do they ? Best form of transport.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 09:33 PMRubicon I read your links, thanks. Firstly I’d like to say that the link containing the business paper points to gloomy economic prospects. This also was the forecast for Britain which I observed on the news recently. This video on you tube (a bit grainy) points out Irelands vulnerabilities in this area. (Cheap oil -Ireland is the third heaviest dependent country in Europe on oil and the soloution offered is nuclear fuel), cheap housing which is underpinned by cheap labour, and concludes when these 3 things are under threat the country is vulnerable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSsKj2xwx_U
“Mrs Doyle heartily agree-which brings us back to the land border between the ROI and UK.
What to do?”Phil in the same link, click more about this video is this :
“We already know that Ireland takes in more immigrants per head than any other EU country and this includes the UK and
Sweden - the only two other EU countries with an open borders policy to the new eastern states of the Union. We are also
absorbing more migrants per head than the US. If the US were to match the per capita Irish figures, it would have taken in close
to 15 million people in the past two years - twice the population of New York! Compared with other European countries with more restrictive policies, the Irish numbers are
startling. We are now absorbing seven times per head more than France and the Netherlands. Anecdotal evidence suggests that immigration is increasing not decreasing. The impact of foreign workers is being felt in every county and town around the country”- David McWilliams
Irish economist & broadcaster”A slow down, or even a cessation in immigration until things are sorted would be my first choice, failing that an honest debate would be a start. If the Irish as a nation do not handle immigration properly then the Irish will not only replicate the mistakes of the UK and France, but the effect will be much more devistating for the whole of Irish society.
Posted by on Dec 29, 2007 @ 10:28 PMPaddyReilly’s view has a lot of merit.
Future generations may well see the Troubles as a problem caused by non-integration of a large number of immigrants concentrated in a geographical area with a separate culture.
(In my view, a non-integration prolonged by the IRA)
Happens all over the world.
The advocates of an open door policy should be sent to Portadown to ponder.
And if I were on a packed bus in deepest China and the immigration police picked out my pudgy pink face for questioning I think I wouldn’t be very offended at all.
Posted by on Dec 30, 2007 @ 01:07 AM
