Friday, December 28, 2007
Bertie draws the border back in…
Last time I was stopped at the border would have been by a single Garda around 1990, probably after a major attack somewhere in Northern Ireland. He was stopping most cars just before the Carrickdale hotel creating a tailback that went right back across the actual boarder. When we eventually got up to him he engaged my Derby born English colleague in a long conversation about the mixed fortunes of Derby County (the Guard’s favourite team), and after a decent interval he waved us on. Yesterday, travelling on a Belfast to Dublin coach we were pulled in by a Garda with the words ‘Immigration’ emblazoned on his back and asked for passports and other forms of photo ID. It’s a development that has not been covered in the media, yet it would appear to have important implications both for Schengen debate, and the future of the Common Travel Area.
Bertie Ahern seems convinced that most of the immigration travel is north to south, although official figures suggest it is about equal each way. So is Dublin preparing to draw a hard land border back in, in preference to sharing protocols and information with British? There is no sign of immigration control on east west flights between Dublin and Britain, yet at least.
Mick Fealty @ 02:45 PM
I think Dublin will draw a border. It’s a back door for immigration that unfortunately needs to be closed. It goes against the EU, it goes against sympathy many of us have for an Ireland with no border, but I’m for clamping down on immigration (especially Illegal immigration). I think all countries within the EU need to secure their borders - the open borders policy is simply not working.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 03:22 PMWhat’s fascinating here though is that there is not a proven case that the Northern Irish border is a significant entry point for illegal immigrants.
The question would appear to more to do with enforcing separate national controls to the British. We can’t know for sure since negotiations with the UK government over the possibility of shared protocols have been conducted in private, even as the Irish Times has been calling (largely unsuccessfully) for a public debate.
Is this the beginning of the end of the Common Travel Area? If it is, then Northern Ireland unambiguously falls into the ‘foreign territory’ category so far as Dublin is concerned.
Although it has to be said that the Guard yesterday only had to glimpse the outside of our EU passports to move on. Still, it looks like the border is back.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 04:09 PMMy last post didn’t appear.
Is it now the case that pasengers on this train NEED to have their passports?
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 04:23 PMTime for Ireland to make a decision, inside Schengen with the rest of the Eurozone or out of it looking to shelter under a British security umbrella.
I’d take Schengen myself.
As for Northern Ireland, the good people can join the Republic and with it Schengen any time they want but we can’t keep the country on hold in the hope that this potential eventuality comes about sooner rather than later.
If protecting the “internal” land border is in the interests of national security, so be it.
Just because the people of Northern Ireland are somehow managing to ride two sovereign horses doesn’t mean we have to try the same feat.
It seems the Common Travel Area has outlived its usefulness for both Britain and Ireland.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 04:25 PMI never realised that you have a coloured hue , Mick.
Oh wait, that’s Texas.Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 04:29 PMSince travel to GB from NI already requires photo id. what visible benefit is it to people from NI to be part of the “British security umbrella”?
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 04:33 PMIt was a coach Jo.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 04:39 PMThis isn’t a particularly new development, An Garda have been at this for many years particularly on the airport buses, the bit I always had an issue with was the racist methods used for deciding on an ID check. I’ve never been asked on any occasion it happened while every dark skinned or swarthy person has.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 04:41 PMRub,
Air travel universally requires photo id, whether internal or external. This is the first time I’ve experienced that requirement for any other form of travel. That does not preclude the possibility that this immigration checking has been going on for some time. The coach driver gave the impression it was fairly routine.
But presumably each state has its own strategic assets it is legally bound to protect.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 04:45 PM“I always had an issue with was the racist methods used for deciding on an ID check.”
This was my previous point. At least it would seem that on this occasion, all passengers were being checked - not just those who “looked foreign” - whatever that means anymore ! :)
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 04:54 PMIt also worth noting that historically the Irish change policy in line with Britain’s on this, the Aliens Order 1962 being a prime example and the Common Travel Area isn’t a legal entity that was ever formally ratified by treaty or agreement though the British reciprocate as demonstrated recently by the exemption for Irish citizens convicted and gaoled from deportation legislation.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 05:01 PMThis has been routine for quite a while and only really applies to those of a doubtful origin. I had no identification but my strong north antrim accent done my verification for me. The Gardai simply said thats ok. It not right that it comes down to racist notions but i would be equally annoyed to have been told i could not travel to a city where i paid my taxes for a year. I would like to point out i have been asked every time and the gardai has used his common sense in my situation thankfully.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 05:16 PMthe bit I always had an issue with was the racist methods
Here we have an example of the –ism mentality being used in the fight against crime fighters. As one senior policeman in London put it, if the complainant says the assailant was a young Afro-Caribbean, we’re not going to be stopping elderly Chinese women, are we?
While not wishing to cast aspersions on any particular racial grouping, I did once think of volunteering to stand in identity parades (in London), but was told that, if I wasn’t Black and under 30, my services were not required.
Illegal immigration into Ireland is an offence committed almost definitionally by people of swarthy hue. It therefore makes more sense to stop people of swarthy hue than, for example, those with red hair and freckles.
I realise this can be bothersome. There was a time when I myself was singled out, from something like 300 passengers, by UK police authorities for questioning. I mentioned this to American friends, who said it must be because I was Irish. I pointed out that this was not actually an unusual nationality to hold on the ferry from Dún Laoghaire to Holyhead, so I must have had some additional qualification.
It may be economically advantageous to move to a continent which is not the one your grandparents dwelt upon, but this advantage usually comes with certain disadvantages, one of which is that you spend longer at immigration control than the natives do. If this is too hard to bear, then the answer is to move back to a place where you are not unusual. Mostly though, I think the advantages of European residence outweigh the disadvantages. Equally, I found that avoiding the border searches would not compensate for a lifelong confinement in Ballyjamesduff.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 05:36 PMThese checks have dubious value and will in all likelihood increase NI nationalist paranoia while at the same time feeding immigration fears that are for the most part thinly veiled racism. This type of activity appears to give justification to those who believe illegal immigration is a real problem – yet there is no evidence of this being the case. A search over the last month’s news media produces a single case of alleged illegal immigration – one that Paisley has backed against deportation (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3266821.ece)
There are however many instances of hostility towards immigrants.
Yet, this month the Registrar General for Northern Ireland reported the asset immigration to NI has been (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3231307.ece ). Over the last 30 years births have fallen by a fifth while the number of pensioners has increased by a third – and that doesn’t count the huge rise in economic inactivity (for those of economically active age) over the same period.
Put plainly, it’s simple arithmetic – either migrants fill the gap or the rising health costs of the inactive and elderly will have to be found from the pockets of the employed Christian whites who have been the source of no concern at all over the last 3 decades!
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 05:51 PMI think Dublin will draw a border. It’s a back door for immigration that unfortunately needs to be closed. It goes against the EU, it goes against sympathy many of us have for an Ireland with no border, but I’m for clamping down on immigration (especially Illegal immigration). I think all countries within the EU need to secure their borders - the open borders policy is simply not working.
Hang on a second. Everyone gets their ID/visa requirements checked at the point of entry into the EU. Therefore, anyone crossing the Irish border (or any other border inside the EU) will have been checked on entry already. So what’s the problem ?
A lot of the heat and static about “immigrants” is being directed at people who are legal migrants - Poles, Romanians and so on. They’re all here legally. The border check isn’t going to change those.
So precisely whom is the checking being done at the moment designed to catch ?
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 06:26 PMCS – couldn’t agree more - but there could just be a benefit here. Will the Garda be stopping vehicles from South Armagh on their way to Monaghan in cars filled with murderous louts wearing boiler suits with balaclavas and baseball bats in the boot?
No?
‘Cos they showed their EU passports?
Well – I guess that’s fine then!
I’m all for a focussed campaign that concentrates on known areas of cross-border crime. Illegal immigration is way down the list of priorities – but, then again, perhaps it’s not combating criminality that’s the objective here. Instead, let’s keep a few black families out and if they sneak in we’ll have ‘em deported! Then NI can go back to its traditional ‘cultural’ activities again ;(
The legal migrants entering NI are an asset without whom; NI’s dependents (growing in number each year) will either be told “sorry – no heart op for you”, or, “sorry – no DLA for you”, or, “we’d give your kid a place but the school needs the fees and you can’t pay ‘em. Sorry – do please move on …”. The list could be very long for the demands made by NI on the public purse.
Every time I hit the refresh button on Slugger that damned video plays telling me about our fuel poverty. Stop the migrants if you like but Mrs Doyle or people of like mind will need to find other ways of keeping warm than seeking state handouts.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 06:45 PMPoles, Romanians and so on. They’re all here legally.
I’m not sure about Romanians. Don’t they have to wait a while? And in any case, it is still possible to deport a criminal from another EU country.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 06:50 PMPaddy - I think the largest EU immigrant group to NI is the Polish and after that the Lithuanians - excluding those from GB and the Republic of Ireland (whose numbers are falling).
As for deporting criminals the law is complex. International agreements set out human rights obligations but how these are transposed in law vary and it seems that bi-partisan agreements between national governments determine much of what happens.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 07:01 PMMick,
I remember in 2002 they got on a Dublin bound Ulsterbus.It wass on the outside of Dundalk. They were plain clothed and uniformed gards and they checked passports, taking a very pretty Polish girl off the bus because she had no I.D. (with the amount of mingers runnin about El Paso you’d think they’d be all for beautifying the gene pool with imports). Any way I asked the plod how many of his mates were over at the Big dig or playing hurling in New York without green cards and he gave me some bullocks about 911 security.Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 07:10 PMComrade Stalin,
Hang on a second. Everyone gets their ID/visa requirements checked at the point of entry into the EU. Therefore, anyone crossing the Irish border (or any other border inside the EU) will have been checked on entry already. So what’s the problem ?
You’ve got to now ask yourself if that is the case how do ANY illegal immigrants get to Ireland? Or how do any asylum refugees get into the country since under EU law asylum seekers must have their request processed at the country of entry. They either teleport in, other countries are not securing their borders or they are shuffling them along from point of entry for another country to deal with.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 07:21 PMtaking a very pretty Polish girl off the bus because she had no I.D. (with the amount of mingers runnin about El Paso you’d think they’d be all for beautifying the gene pool with imports)
Possibly they only detained her in order to get better acquainted. Maybe she had to work her passage (if you know what I mean)
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 07:42 PMThe only thing surprising thing here is the infrequency of Mick’s cross border travel. Not only did he miss all of the ‘foot and mouth’ checkpoints but hasn’t noticed these checks which have been happening on the buses for three or four years now. On point of principle I has refused to produce id on a number of occasions, the Guard will usually walk on though after he has enticed a few words out of you in an Irish accent.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 07:43 PMotb,
I once confused one by giving an ID card from another European country and speaking to him in my broadest Belfast, that was after other passengers on a previous journey started heckling me for delaying things by protesting at them singling out black passengers.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 07:49 PMThe need for such checks is a damning endictment of Britain’s failure to deal with people traffickers who are often deeply involved in sexual slavery. It is very noticeable there is no need for similar checks travelling the other way - south to north .
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 07:59 PMMark - perhaps you can fill me in about people trafficking and sex slavery in NI?
The people trafficking/sex slavery that I know of appears to point to a murdered Asian girl over a year ago – but I’m not aware of much else (NI wise). Don’t get me wrong – I’m 100% opposed to this activity but I just don’t see it as a pressing problem.
What I do see as a problem is the wage slavery legal migrants are subjected to by Irish (and foreign) employers using employment agencies as a route to avoid prosecution – or family ties. It is the ‘slaves’ serving these masters who are visible. It’s this visibility that many object to.
Sadly, we don’t have mines to put them in – instead they’re in our cities, in mid-Ulster and many are doing jobs nobody here wanted to do and ‘employed’ on scandalous conditions.
It seems the rent collectors and ‘land agents’ of the Irish famine era have prospered well here in Ulster. They certainly “haven’t gone away you know”.
Posted by on Dec 28, 2007 @ 08:15 PM
