Sunday, November 11, 2007
Ballymoney - ‘Town of bigots’…
WHEN Ballymoney Council was asked to provide Irish street names in three villages last week, the vote didn’t pass - perhaps unsurprising in a unionist-dominated council. However, the vote was (I believe) four for and four against, with the mayor - hardline Paisleyite John Finlay and casting vote holder - abstaining. Like Finlay, most of the DUP councillors actually abstained, with only two DUP and two independent unionists voting against the signs. The Council seems to have gone against the spirit, if not the letter, of its own rules. It’s something you’d expect Irish language newspaper La Nua to get annoyed about, and it does, in its balanced front page story last week. However, the headline on the splash - Baile na mbiogóidí (Town of bigots) - goes beyond ‘whataboutery’. Fighting perceived sectarianism is fair enough - but labelling the entire population of Ballymoney as bigots is counterproductive and just plain stupid. Just imagine a whole town suing a paper for defamation...!
Belfast Gonzo @ 04:52 AM
the only bigots here are those against the english language. We dont need mickey mouse signs , English is the spoken language of NI, if some backwoods Oirish cant handle it, ill send them a dictionary
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 01:36 PMJoseph - usually you make sense but on Irish you have some sort of block. Even in Ballymoney there are about 1,800 with some knowledge of Irish.
What’s with this intolerance business ?
As to politics a decsion to erect bilingual signs is politics ain’t it ?
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 01:57 PMObserver and Comrade Stalin - your neanderthal attitude says it all. You just don’t get it. The fact is that 66% of the people of the three villages said they wanted bilingual signage. And the unionist anti-Irish bigots on Ballymoney Council went against that wish and the policy of the council to deny it. That’s not democracy. So who’s shot themselves in the foot?
Observer - you are simply ignorant.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 02:09 PMDewi, in our version of apartheid the respective godfathers determine who can live in a community and who can or can not pass through.
Perhaps we should judge communities - and boroughs - on the manner in which they tolerate minorities and their viewpoints. A little bit of give and take need not put anyone’s nose out of joint
It appears that the Parades Commission raises no strong objections to what are essentially paramilitary parades so long as those parades are held ‘on their own patch’. No account is taken of dissenting views - or even of PC guidelines.
Dunloy is the village of the surrounding community as well as the residents - or should be. The short parade route from the OO hall to the Presbyterian Church is essentially on the edge of the majority of homes in the village. Dunloy Accordion Band in years past would have been considered one of the most respectable ones; certainly a far cry from the loyalist and republican iconography associated with some of the current ‘thud and blunder’ ones.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 02:09 PMIt’s worth noting that in two threads here on Slugger, we have a group of people decrying the entire Markets area being tarred with the one brush, and yet justifying why it’s OK to do that very thing for Ballymoney.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 02:12 PMGood point, TAKKABO. I suppose Ballymoney can be considered a town full of bigots because they elected a council full of bigots. Cruel - but fair!
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 02:27 PMRory, this isn’t, er, a town council; it’s a council for Ballymoney and district.
PS the Office of the FMDFM contains a couple of well known pacifists ...
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 02:32 PMDewi, there seems to be little enthusiasm for the learning of Irish apart from those who’ve set up schools where teaching takes place through the medium of Irish.
Many of those who have a knowledge of the language may have been compelled to study it in their early years at secondary school.
Take a look at the notes associated with each department of Loreto College in Coleraine, a place I used to visit often, slept in once but never heard a word of Irish spoken by its pupils, not even amongst themselves.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 02:42 PMI do wish peeps would stop agitating against Irish-language signage. I don’t speak the language but find it fascinating, as it’s a link back to the original place-name.
For instance, Ballymoney is an idiotic name. But I happen to know that the prefix “Bally” is a rough translation of the Gaelic for “town”. The “money” part I don’t know but perhaps it’s something quite poetic.
Of course we all know this isn’t really about signage. It’s simply another stick to beat your neighbours with. Childish really. And even more childish to deny it.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 02:43 PMBaile Monaidh - “townland of the moor” (according to Wiki anyway.)
Nevin - accept your broader sociological observations.
“Many of those who have a knowledge of the language may have been compelled to study it in their early years at secondary school”
True - like many of us were compelled to learn Maths, etc.
“Dewi, there seems to be little enthusiasm for the learning of Irish apart from those who’ve set up schools where teaching takes place through the medium of Irish”
Also true - (33 just schools or units by the way)
We’ve been here many times I know but I take a sort of logical approach:Do you want the Irish Language to survive ? If answer is Yes then radical measures need to be taken. Public display of status, being heard on tV and public announcements, being able to speak in court, and at least an option in state schools.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 02:58 PMEven in Ballymoney there are about 1,800 with some knowledge of Irish.
Dewi, there’s more people in Ballymoney with a knowledge of French, should we demand that French be included? What about the 500+ Polish living in Ballymoney, should we add Polish street names?
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 02:59 PMUlster’s my homeland - You don’t thing there’s something special about Irish in Ireland ? French and Polish pretty safe in the World - Irish not - and it’s what the names of your towns, fields and rivers are based on. Wish I’d had opportunity to learn in my school.
Anyway Llanelli on the box.....
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:02 PMDewi,
Baile Monaidh - “townland of the moor”
So it used to be Islamic? There’s a turnup for the books! :0)
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:07 PMHere’s an interesting link which show the old townland names around Ballymoney. This is a lot more historical and interesting than trying to add Irish onto a street name.
http://www.ballymoneyancestry.com/ballymoney_townlands_parishes.aspx
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:12 PMDawkins - Stranger things....
Put me down for 2008 calendar bt the way.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:15 PMA trivial thought, I know, but I’m working through it all the same:
What strikes me is the lost opportunity.
Wherever I go in the rest of the UK, boroughs and local councils are striving to create some kind of corporate differentiation. Hence, street name plates are all replaced (often at some considerable expense) with new ones incorporating the logo. The results are often bizarre, with the modern flashy plate looking tawdry and outclassed by the plain, cast-metal Victorian one higher up the wall.
Meanwhile we are achieving some kind of recognition that tourists don’t pay much account to the border anymore. So “Ireland” is being sold as an entity, rather than individual tourist agencies touting their own little bit of it.
Why are NI councils not exploiting the chances here? Visitors, on the whole, don’t give a fig for local spats. They want their trip to be memorable and (if they’re from the rest of the UK) to feel somewhere “different”. The Welsh and Scots do it—and well.
Hence, for me, the notion of bilingual/trilingual notices seems desirable. The English/Chinese of London’s Soho, plus the ornamental ironwork, makes a feature. I quite like the English/ Chinese/ Spanish notices on public transport in California. As I recall there are bits of Luxembourg where they do it in up to five languages, and generally put German at the bottom as a subtle form of revenge for past indignities.
Yet Ballymoney and many other tin-pot places want to look and feel like any other one-horse town. So who is the loser here?
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:15 PMUMH - when about did you stop using townlands and use street names ?
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:24 PMUlster’s my homeland @ 03:12 PM:
Nice posting, and the link supports my point.
Each one of those townland names has some history, some romance to it. Many of them will soon be memorable only by being included in some estate agent’s or developer’s sales-patter, and the past will exit only in the notebooks and webpages of local historians.
Homogenised culture, like the milk, is bland and unappealing.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:27 PMEach one of those townland names has some history, some romance to it. Many of them will soon be memorable only by being included in some estate agent’s or developer’s sales-patter, and the past will exit only in the notebooks and webpages of local historians.
Malcolm Redfellow, If we are lead down politicising the Irish language, we will end up loosing a greater part of our heritage as in our ancient townlands. As always, N.Ireland’s politicians are too busy fighting each other that they miss the wood for the trees.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:41 PMUlster’s My Homeland
“Here’s an interesting link which show the old townland names around Ballymoney. This is a lot more historical and interesting than trying to add Irish onto a street name.”
Thanks for the interesting link. It occurs that most of the townland names on the lists are already in Irish, they are just spelt badly. Maybe the people should go back to the council and re-phrase the request as “correctly spelt signs” - on a face-saving compromise basis.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:51 PM“Thanks for the interesting link. It occurs that most of the townland names on the lists are already in Irish, they are just spelt badly. Maybe the people should go back to the council and re-phrase the request as “correctly spelt signs” - on a face-saving compromise basis.”
Absolutely spot on.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:55 PMDewi, I don’t think there’s much hope for the language if militant republicans continue to use it as a cultural weapon and those who already know it choose not to use it.
My interest in the language is essentially limited to placenames but I’m interested in all the linguistic roots, not just the Irish ones. By the way we have bogs not moors!!
Ballymoney is locally known as Cowtown. Perhaps it’s down to monaidh, monaidh, monaidh.
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 03:56 PMIt’s not militant republicans who politicise the Irish language but unionist politicians who claim the language is ‘divisive’, those far seeing visionaries, the likes of David McNarry, Gregory Campbell et al.
The unionist councillors of Ballymoney Council have struck another great blow for bigotry and against democracy this week. They should be proud of themselves.....
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 04:05 PM“Dewi, I don’t think there’s much hope for the language if militant republicans continue to use it as a cultural weapon and those who already know it choose not to use it.”
“Cultural weapon” - Are you seriously suggesting that anyone will change sides on the constitutional issue if Irish is given some status on road signs ? I’m glad someone’s trying to promote is anyway and there are plenty besides Republicans.
Lá Nua (A daily - astonishing achievment) has a Unionist columnist and there are Presbyterian sevices held in Belfast.
Malcolm’s points prescient as always - been to Isle of Skye twice in my life - once 20 years ago and once year before last. To see Gaelic on public display the second time cf. complete absence time before was great for a tourist.
Bogs not Moors eh...that adds to the credibility of the Islamic angle......
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 04:05 PMThanks for the interesting link. It occurs that most of the townland names on the lists are already in Irish, they are just spelt badly. Maybe the people should go back to the council and re-phrase the request as “correctly spelt signs” - on a face-saving compromise basis.
Sometimes there’s not a lot of difference between the English place name and the Irish, Ulster McNulty. I was recently talking to a lass from America, who said her family migrated from Ballywattick, Ballymoney. She had me puzzled for a moment as I didn’t know where abouts that was, because we here in N.Ireland are too focused on trying to stick a fada or changing a few letters for political reasons. I wonder what the Irish for Ballywattick is? and if that American lass would recognise it?
Now, wouldn’t it make more sense to focus on preserving these old placenames in English, which actually will aid the tourism both functionally as well as aesthetically?
Posted by on Nov 11, 2007 @ 04:06 PM
