Friday, January 05, 2007
Athbhreith agus cuir diot é!
Love it or loathe it, one of the impressive things about the Irish language movement in Belfast is the high levels of fluent speakers, and within certain areas at least, a degree of sympathy for it. However Manchán Magan takes an extraordinary journey around Ireland, trying to get by by speaking the Republic’s official language Irish.
And with some sobering results.
Underconfidence amongst those who only infrequently speak it may be key to some of the aggression:
Eventually they located a charming young woman who spoke perfect Irish and was able to tell me everything I needed to know, but she was terribly nervous, believing her vocabulary to be inadequate. It was not; it was wonderful. It is an odd tendency that people often have an erroneous view of their ability to speak Irish, either over- or underestimating their ability - possibly a convoluted psychological legacy of the stigma attached from days when it was a sign of poverty and backwardness.
Though it didn’t apply to all he meet:
I might have been tempted to give up the journey entirely had it not been for something that happened during the radio phone-in. I was rapidly approaching a point of despair when some children came on the line. I found they spoke clear and fluent Irish in a new and modern urban dialect. They told me how they spoke the language all the time, as did all their friends. They loved it, and they were outraged that I could suggest it was dead. These were the children of the new Gaelscoileanna - the all-Irish schools that are springing up throughout the country in increasing numbers every year.
Outside Dublin it was different:
Even on the staunchly loyalist Shankill Road in Belfast I was treated with civility, though warned that if I persisted in speaking the language I was liable to end up in hospital. In Galway, I went out busking on the streets, singing the filthiest, most debauched lyrics I could think of to see if anyone would understand. No one did - old women smiled, tapping their feet merrily, as I serenaded them with filth. In Killarney, I stood outside a bank promising passers-by huge sums of money if they helped me rob it, but again no one understood.
He concludes:
From a purely regulatory perspective, the language has recently won some important (though possibly Pyrrhic) victories - the Official Languages Act guarantees the right to communicate in Irish with all state and semi-state organisations (although whenever I tried sending Irish emails to government bodies during the journey they were ignored).
Possibly the language’s most significant moment of the past few centuries occurred on Monday this week when Irish became an official working language of the EU. It is a huge vote of confidence by our European neighbours, and it seems appropriate that Irish people should decide at this time once and for all what we want to do with our mother tongue. Should we stick a do-not-resuscitate sign around its neck and unplug the machine, or else get over our silly inferiority complex and start using the bloody thing?
As the Gaelscoileanna children might say: “Athbhreith agus cuir diot é!” (Just rebirth and get over it!).
The TV series based on Manchán’s journey, No Béarla, begins on Sunday at 9.30pm on TG4.
Mick Fealty @ 12:07 PM
“What a sentimental wush to see Brother Beausang’s name, thank you for that Malachi. He was a lovely man”.
Ditto.
As a fluent Irish speaker I, personally, feel the language has, in the last 20 years, been politicised and hijacked for ulterior motives.
In 1991 I witnessed a well known Irish speaker in a west Belfast restaurant blatently belittle the female waitresses in an obvious attempt at showing his “cultural superiority” and impressing his (Irish speaking) Basque girlfriend by insisting in ordering his food in Irish - even in the full knowledge that there were no Irish speaking staff.
Not for him the cordial simplicity of either ordering in english or pointing to the menu, oh no, he had to go on an all out cultural assault.
After several minutes of his naziesque behaviour I turned to him and simply said “mo naire ort”. Not another word in Irish was muttered by him from that to the time I left the restaurant.
Once I’d seen the language I loved used as a cultural beating stick it completely made me revaluate my own use of the language.
I still think in Irish (strange, I know) and use it on appropriate occasions such as regular visits to the families I stayed with in Gaoth Dobhair in the late seventies through to the mid eighties but I would neither foist nor force it on my children.
To my mind, and like Malachy it was compulsory in school in my day, you have to want to learn it.
Seaghan, for the purposes of conversational Irish, an bhfuil “Skype” agat?
Posted by on Jan 06, 2007 @ 01:00 AMWhy not post the video on rapidshare or megauploads for the Yank?
I lived in the Galway Gaeltacht for a year and spokeo only Irish. The locals, many of whom made money out of the language, were pissed at tourists coming in spouting a few words to them and really looking for free conversation classes/cheap thrills. These kinds of voyeurs are not much cop. They remind me of the tourists who pay in to see the Long Neck People and others on the compounds on the Thai Myanmar border. Go to a human zoo.However, I would like to see programs exposing all who make a comfy livng out of Irish.
Also there is nothing new in the West Belfast Gaeltacht. Free Staters have been doing it since 1923. Seosamh MacGrianna’s first job with an Gum was translating Rpy Rodgers into Irish. Such a waste.As to why no posts in English, the same reason the poeple of the Gaeltacht speak to Long Neck Gazers in English. It is esier and why should they bother?
Posted by on Jan 06, 2007 @ 03:08 AMMalachi,
‘Is there such a thing as “the Irish language speaking community in the North” to the extent that there is a unified body of people with a coherent attitude and position? My old friend the late Sean O Cearnaigh thought not.’
I disagree fundamentally with Ó Cearnaigh. I spent Friday lunch-time at a protest down at Laganside Courts, I saw a united and determined body of people. I respect your view on this but I feel I have my hand on the pulse on this one.
Obviously when I refer to an Irish Language community I refer to people who define themselves as such, not those who happen to know some Irish from school – Irish speakers perhaps but unless you are born a native I think being a part of the body in question is a conscious decision.
‘Would an Irish language campaigner who was not a republican not have problems with the case for the language being repeatedly tied to interparty negotiations?’
No frankly, it is too big of a jump forward to be complaining about it, it was the same scenario with the 1998 Education Act, why would anyone complain about the complete reversal of hundreds of years of language policy?
‘Isn’t there a danger that the rewriting of history by republicans will place the language closer to the centre of the case for their campaign than it actually was?’
History is your thing Malachi and I respect that, I am not a historian. But I would say that I believe that history will deny the mantra that Sinn Féin hijacked the Irish language, some disgruntled bar-flies on the Falls Road might claim it was the other way round.
‘what do you make of the experience of Ireland in the de Valera period which suggests to me that state sponsored efforts to promote the language actually alienated people from it?’
I don’t agree, the alienation you speak of has its roots in the post de Valera period. However I think if you ask most Irish language activists they would argue that the State was never serious about reviving the Irish Language. I think that this line of debate is a thread in itself.
‘Didn’t Irish, through the Christian Brothers and the whole chauvinst culture come to be identified with Catholic conservatism - to its cost.’
Malachi, I sorry but I think you may have more a problem with the brothers than the language. Above I mentioned a body of literature in the language, anyone acquainted with it would never identify anything Gaelic with Catholic conservatism I assure you. Catholic conservatism replaced Gaelic culture, they are diametrically opposed, why do you think the priests banned Patterns? Keening? Why did they insist that islands were evacuated? Why did they oppose all manner of folk belief and practise? Accounts of life in Ireland pre-famine for example describe a slightly hedonist society which was much more sexually open than the society which came after.
‘W were taught that the answer to the greeting Dia dhuit was Dia is Mhuire duit. That sounds to me now like a test question to see if you are a catholic.’
No Malachi, that’s just people used to say hello. But on a point of information, it is not said anymore really, except to priests!
Hmmm
‘here in the north? With the parents’ first language as English? Even if they endeavour to speak only Irish in the house, I find this claim to be outlandish. Every child I know in a bunscoil speaks both fluent English and Irish’
I was not referring to parents who send there children to a bunscoil per se, I was referring to people who speak Irish at home.
Breathnach
Thank you for the grammar lesson, I will endeavour to improve my English.
I respect your opinions on parenting which of course is a personal view and involves personal decisions.
Posted by on Jan 06, 2007 @ 09:48 AMI was not referring to parents who send there children to a bunscoil per se, I was referring to people who speak Irish at home.
So was I. Your claim is still outlandish.
Posted by on Jan 06, 2007 @ 10:09 AMall languages have political connotations, but the student of irish has a bit more of a minefield than most to navigate. (For example: calling it “gaelic” rather than “irish” puts some people’s backs up.)
“Why would you want to learn that, it’s embarassing?” said an irish neighbour to one of my german fellow students.
The question comes up often. I’ve stopped giving any complicated answer by now. I just say it’s a hobby.
the other people in my class know little about the history and the politics, and care less. Why the hell should they? Yes, there’s an element of romanticisation in learning a rarely spoken language, germans tend to be a bit naive about ireland anyway, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It sustains you through the long dry period before fluency.
At least, it helped me through learning german. I’m not there yet in irish. And like the woman in Bord Failte, I’m nervous of speaking it. Because - as the series on TG4 will probably show - you never know if you’re going to get an earful from someone about how much they hated it in school.
Posted by on Jan 06, 2007 @ 03:51 PMSurprise. Surprise. Some Irish speaking a**hole from up the North decides speak Irish at the locals down South and make the startling discovery that almost none of them can speak Irish.
Of course if he had actually grown up in the South he would have know that a) the vast majority of people finish 12 years of compulsory Irish with a fluency in the language that barely rises above the coupla focail level; b) the only thing successfully beaten into them by the educational system is a deep embarrassment about the language and a deep sense of personal guilt and shame about the fact that they cannot speak their “native” language; and c) because of a) and b) even though large numbers of people claim to speak the language on a regular basic one can pass many years in Ireland without hearing a single word of Irish spoken by ordinary folk in daily conversation. The true number of daily Irish speakers is somewhere around 1%, not the 10% or 20% claimed in census returns
So to go around the South speaking Irish at ordinary people was at best being extremely boorish and at worst being a total pr*ck. I’m very surprised he did not get a more hostile reaction but there again, most peoples reaction would have been to guess that he was either mentally ill or deliberately trying to provoke a confrontation for some ulterior motive.
Or there again, maybe most peoples experiences of gaelgoirs has been the same as mine over the last forty odd years, at best patronizing cranks, at worst obnoxious little b*stards, and just blew off Mr Magan as yet another stuck up Irish language crank with an attitude problem.
Posted by on Jan 06, 2007 @ 05:35 PM“and Dawson (dismal and deserted) are compared.”
That place on Dawson St. is gone. It no longer markets itself as an Irish language café, although Gael-Linn may still own it in the short-term until they sell it.
I spoke to the Ceannasaí of Gael-Linn about it. Apparently, it was going well but the rent and other bills were rising.
Outside of student-night on Tuesdays, and other events CnaG on Harcourt St. is very quiet.
The actions of CnaG against Fine Gael don’t help, although the Club is independtly run.
One of the co-founders of the club actually insists that the music from the CD player be turned down during the week (unless there is a big event on) because people come there ” to chat” (and he doesn’t like music).
His outlook it totally wrong. People can speak Irish anwyhere in most of Ireland. The ceol is what makes the place in my opinion. Sadly, hes been there so so it feels wrong to critcise him.
I’ve given up on the place for several reasons, that just being one of them.
Posted by on Jan 06, 2007 @ 07:43 PMJ McConnell,
Don’t give yourself a heart attack bigguy. It’s a language.
I believe Mangan is from County Meath or Westmeath.
Posted by on Jan 07, 2007 @ 06:08 AMI’m another Ulsterman, did Irish to O Level, spent all my summers in the Donegal Gaeltacht, wore my fainne oir with pride and considered sending my own children to a new bunscoil but was put off by the discovery that hating the Brits and supporting militant Republicanism was more important than a love of the language.
I feel, with a lot of regret, that Irish was indeed hijacked.Posted by on Jan 07, 2007 @ 01:31 PMI presume there are plently of bunscoileanna in the North where hating the Brits is not accpeted.
It doesn’t happen in the South that I’m aware of. I even heard of some SF rep. in Dublin sending a cheque for €1000 to a local gaelscoil only to have it returned without any response.
I don’t know why he contacted a local ‘paper about it. I wouldn’t exactly be proud of it.
Posted by on Jan 07, 2007 @ 01:50 PMThe problem with Malachi’s argument is that he doesn’t want Irish about the place. People want to speak the language and are being marginalised as a result. If republicans think they can gain a few votes from it and support a pre-existing demand for the Irish Language Act, then more power to them. It’s up to other parties to measure up to this standard - not for SF to resile from their position.
Malachi’s other problem is that he’s completely out of touch. When he was editor of Fortnight, he demonstrated this by adapting as his token Irish language columnist a writer who was himself out of touch with the revolution in the Irish language in Ireland.
I don’t think personally that resources should be wasted on Irish language paper mountains when the self same paper mountains aren’t read in English. But I do think that if someone enters hospital, and if there’s a policy to be welcoming in several languages, that the indigenous languages should be included in that welcome (The Royal Group has welcome packs in 17 languages - Irish is excluded). It’s not a question of whether you understand English or not - it’s a question of courtesy and welcome or fáilte.
Irish is only connected with Catholic chauvinism among those of a certain generation - Malachi and co - while the rest of the Irish lanuage movement are moving on. The name of Ireland’s premier Irish language cultural centre - Cultúrlann McAdam Ó Fiaich reflects this progressive spirit and rejects the cobwebbed approach of Malachi and his cairde.
Isn’t there a danger that the rewriting of history by republicans will place the language closer to the centre of the case for their campaign than it actually was?If there’s a danger of the ‘rewriting of history’, it’s not republicans who would be top of my list of usual suspects? That’s actually very funny coming from you Malachi? Aren’t you a proud member of the revisionist club? You and Ruth, and John A. and Kevin and co?
The only danger to the language is if we listen to the naysayers who can find a thousand reasons NOT to do something and can’t see even ONE reason to adapt a more positive attitude and get it done. Ná h-abair é, dein é! That was the motto of the Irish language community in Belfast - and by God they did it in spades. And that’s why the Cultúrlann is now being used as a blueprint for other similar centres throughout Ireland which are to be built in the weeks and months to come.
If we were to listen to Malachi and adapt his way of thinking we’d still be stuck in 1966….Get over it Malachi. Get you “Buntus Cainte” and tune in to TG4 - get a subscription to Lá! Listen to Raidio Fáílte. Send your kids to a Bunscoil where they will get an excellent quality of education. Live up to your tweed Leprechaun suit!
Posted by on Jan 07, 2007 @ 02:29 PMa**hole,a total pr*ck, Or there again, maybe most peoples experiences of gaelgoirs has been the same as mine over the last forty odd years, at best patronizing cranks, at worst obnoxious little b*stards, and just blew off Mr Magan as yet another stuck up Irish language crank with an attitude problem.
so sayeth the all wise J McConnell, who, it seems, has a problem using any language without befouling it. Manchan is from Dublin but lives in Westmeath, when he’s in Ireland. The only ‘boor’ here is Mr McConnell, it appears to me. He would no doubt be a proponent of freedom of speech so he would appreciate the irony of his position if, indeed, he were able to appreciate irony. He’s all for freedom of speech except extending that right to the speakers of the Irish language could bring about the fall of civilisation as he knows it….
get a saol Mr McConnell.
Posted by on Jan 07, 2007 @ 02:36 PMLamh Dearg,
I find it hard to believe that yours is a genuine post. I have worked in the sector and I find your claim to be bizarre.
However if it is why don’t you contact Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta with your concerns. Why don’t you approach a paper and allow your views to be tested? I myself would be most interested to find out more.
You obviously didn’t see the article in the South Belfast News 2/12/06 about work being down to establish IME in the Malone area - The local Prespyterian Minister (who I know personally to be a proud Irish speaker) voiced his support.
If you regret so much this hijacking, why don’t you set up your own group, bunscoil, whatever?
Posted by on Jan 07, 2007 @ 08:07 PMDia duit a Ghael
I’m sorry you doubt my post. I simply say it as I found it (this was 10 years ago). Maybe things have changed in the language movement.
I’m not trying to make any political point. The political attitudes came from the parents and Governors many of whom (again I emphasize this was 10 years ago) seemed to spend a large part of their time on street demos complaining about policing and various issues to do with “parity of esteem” I did not receive such messages from the staff of the school.
I was not aware of any Comhairle to complain to and the issue was not important enough to me to consider setting up any kind of alternative.
My children received an excellent education through English but studied Irish as I did, went to the Gaeltacht as I did and are as Irish as I am and can hold their own in Irish when the occasion arises.
I have always been aware of the role of non Catholics in maintaining and promoting the language, I was taught by one.
As I say I am sorry that you doubt my honesty but I can only repeat that the close relationship between the language movement and the Republican movement drove me from the language. I am sad about that but it is a fact
Adh mor ort
Posted by on Jan 07, 2007 @ 08:57 PMOn the program itself ...
1. He cheated. You need to write in Irish only to get a reply in Irish, if you even use a few words of English they are entitled to write back in English according to the Act.
But actually I was very very surprised how much Irish the people he was talking to actually understood,the bus driver for example seemed to understand what he was saying.
In the Welsh version non-Welsh speaking people frequently thought the people were Germans at least people actually recongised that he was speaking Irish - despite the fact he used a non standard form of the word!
In every office he went to an Irish speaker was produced. And, really I think he deliberately went to the places where he was least likely to find Irish, I mean why did he not just get a coffee in Caife Úna?
I have seen worse.
Posted by on Jan 07, 2007 @ 09:08 PMI watched the programme and it was refreshing in many ways to hear what the plain people of Ireland thought of An Ghaeilge. On the surface, sure they were indifferent but then again there is the possibility that they would ignore such approaches as made by Manchan, whatever language they were couched in. Have you ever tried to stop someone on the street and ask them a question other than the time of day, or less so, for a light for a cigarette?
He did cheat in that he resorted to English during a radio appeal to find an Irish speaker. The programme would have been alot truer to itself had he not gone this route so early in the series, after all he refused to speak in English, resorting to French, in the tourist office?
I don’t think anyone would blame him for not having a cup of coffee in an empty cafe. Or if it was stinking of sewage?
J McConnell might revise his opinion of Manchan, see above, if he heard that he set out with the primise that the Irish langauge is dead and this is a mission to prove this assumption.
I think that it’s folly to write off anything, much less the Irish language which has survived proscription and many concerted attempts to do it down. It’ll survive No Béarla and the slings and arrows of Malachi and co, no problem.
Incidentally while talking about writing people/things off, RTE reported on the main news this evening (Sunday) that David Ervine had died. They ran the obit and all - but fortunately for the PUP leader, for whom I have a lot of respect - he is still with us at the time of writing. It’s being reported on BBC NI and other outlets that he’s critically ill after coillapsing at his home on Saturday. I hope he pulls through - the world needs more of his kind. Tá a leitheid de dhith, anois nios mó ná mar a bhí riamh.Posted by on Jan 07, 2007 @ 09:56 PMGaelganaire,
ná bí ag glacadh ceachtanna ón Bhreathnach!
Craic is a recent, and largely pointless, gaelicization of a good old Anglo-Saxon word crack.
Posted by on Jan 08, 2007 @ 12:55 AMBhí Manchánar ‘The Panel’ an oíche eile, agus thug sé le fios nach labhar ach duine amháin sa tír uilg leis as Gaelainn. Níl sin fíor; tá a fhios agam, mar shampla, go bhfuair sé daoine i mórán gach contae ina raibh sé. Faoi mar atá ráite anseo cheana féin, is dóigh liom go raibh a aigne déanta suas aige roim h a thosnaigh an chlár go raibh an teanga marbh, agus triall sé é sin a chinntiú.
b’fhéidir go néireodh níos fearr leis dá dtosnódh sé le ceist amháin béarla- tá Gaelainn ag an-chuid daoine, ach eagla orthu é a úsáid toisc ‘meirg’ a beith orthu. Níl ag teastáil uathu ach spreagadh beag.
Posted by on Jan 10, 2007 @ 09:05 AM
