Monday, June 18, 2007
And ursine mammals do indeed defecate in forested areas.
The Irish Times yesterday, via PA, had some of the reported findings of the BBC’s State of Mind survey [who will think of the children? - Ed] and the BBC follow up today with quotes from the report’s author, Professor Paul Connolly - “The key message emerging from our research is that many Catholic and Protestant children here still tend to live parallel and separate lives”. The findings shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone paying attention. And no, I don’t entirely agree with what he has to say
“One way of doing this is to encourage children’s sense of being Protestant or Catholic alongside also helping them to recognize that they are all part of a wider and shared identity as Northern Irish.”
Those stats the Irish Times noted
The survey revealed:
Over four fifths of Protestant children (84%) believed Belfast was the capital of their country compared to 39% of Catholics. Under half of Catholic children (47%) said Dublin was their capital compared to just 4% of Protestants.
Catholic children (51%) were five times more likely to see themselves as Irish compared to Protestant children (10%). Protestant children were nearly four times more likely to see themselves as British (58%) compared to Catholic children (15%).
However when children were asked if they were Northern Irish, there were roughly similar results — 53% of Catholics said they were and 49% of Protestants.
It’s been asked before, “a triumph of top-down politics”?
Pete Baker @ 06:55 AM
buy products only available in Northern Ireland (e.g. Tayto!) among other things. Maybe that commoditizes identity, but it shows there are certain things which actually are Northern Irish.
Whoa! Hold on a second there! Are you trying to tell me that the crisp I love so well, made in Coolock for more years than I care to remember (who from Dublin 5/17 will ever forget the mouthwatering waft from the factory on Smokey Bacon Fridays?) is actually Northern Irish?
I don’t think so! Cookstown sausages I’ll give ye, but Tayto for the Free State!Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:23 PMSomeone close to me lives directly opposite an integrated school and day and daily drive their kids past it to the nearest (2 miles distant) Catholic school.
I can’t help but think less of them for making that quite deliberate choice not to have their children educated in the same place as children from a faith background other than their own.
With a bit of “luck”(from their view) their kids might nmever even to breathe the same air as a wee Proddy until they’re 18 - 11 years hence. Thats their choice (made on behalf of their kids) but I don’t agree with it and I think that that separation is not healthy. Where you have separation and ignorance and a history of previous conflict, separation breeds suspicion and mistrust. Neither of these feelings encourages my optimism about a future state.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:23 PMkensei et al
Why is this straw man argument of people being ‘forced’ into an identity constantly being raised?
I can’t see any policy now or on the horizon for doing this. Nor can I see how these children have been ‘forced’ into a NI identity.
The opposite appears more likely. I can’t see any evidence of these young people having been socially engineered. They seem to have developed this sense of identity despite the best efforts of the two “traditional” communities.
Nor does having an NI identity preclude one from respecting any other identities. It is probably less likely to anyway, since an NI identity is more likely to be seen as one facet of the individual’s identity.
And those who only see themselves as Northern Irish probably have more reason to tell the British and Irish to “butt out” than anyone else. I’d also encourage the CRC to “butt out”, as it’s clear that the growing NI identity needs little help with its development!
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:49 PMI Wonder,
“Thats their choice (made on behalf of their kids)”
No, it’s made on behalf of themselves. If they really cared about their kids’ future they’d send them across the road. Another might even call it child abuse.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 01:01 PMDawkins
I agree that there are forms of abuse other than physical violence.Violence destroys innocence - parents/responsible carers making deliberate restrictive choices both stunt and compromise the range of possible futures for our children.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 01:08 PMActually, I would defend the parents’ right to do that - they should have the choice of what school to send their kid to.
And they are lucky enough to be in the position to have an integrated school and faith school to choose from.
It certainly isn’t ‘child abuse’ to send your kid to a denominational school.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 02:00 PM‘...He is arguing that it isn’t positive to try and force a single identity on people who are perfectly happy with their own.’
Well, that’s Sinn Fein fucked then.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 02:22 PMBG,
You may defend it but to most well-thinking people it’s absurd. What do you want, that this couple pass their sectarian bigotry on to yet another generation? How many more do you think should be poisoned?
Larkin: They fuck you up, your mum and dad/They may not mean to/But they do./They fill you with the fears they had,/And add some extra just for you.
In my parents’ home when we learnt of the violence in NI, it was as clear as the noses on our faces that religion lay at the root. Yet it always seemed to be the elephant in the room, to hear a succession of prelates the like of Simms and Daly refuse to confront it.
Segregated schooling can only prolong the problems for ... well, for at least another 1000 years. Is this what you want?
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 02:23 PMI don’t want to be in the “Sir Humphrey” position of claiming that parents “aren’t qualified” to know whats best for their kids, but it amazes me that people who are confronted with the reality of sectarian mistrust (and at worst, sectarian hatred) do NOT realise the continuity between those two situations.
Parents fail to make the connection between communities in conflict and their deliberate choice in choosing to be separate. In making that choice they repeat the mistakes of their forefathers.
I was in the fortunate position of going to a small mixed country primary school. When I left there, the next person I sat beside in an educational environment of a different faith background was when I was 18. I feel I lost out because of that gap…
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 02:34 PMGareth,
I shall henceforth switch my allegiance from Republics soccer team to northern Irelands after your enlightenment above.
I too eat tayto, watch bbc, utv and even buy the Irish news. I have even been known to read articles from the newsletter online.
I therefore must have a northern Irish identity.
The only problem is I was born in Meath!!!
Can I still be in the club?
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 02:40 PMOh and I still live in meath and work in Dublin by the way. I have never lived North of the boyne
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 02:41 PMDublin voter
There are two Tayto companies on this island!
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 02:44 PMPól
I read French news and that doesn’t make me French. But if I came from France it would be significant for my identity. People from abroad are welcome in ‘imagined communities’, but there has to have some geographic base. I’m still a Benedict Anderson fan. Anyway, why do you read Northern Ireland news?
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 02:51 PMAttempts to forge a Northern Irish identity are doomed.
Don’t expect loyalty from Irish Nationalists.
So why does survey after survey show that Catholics are marginally more likely than Protestants to describe their main identity as being Northern Irish? Are 53% of Catholic school-leavers going to vote Alliance in the next elections? I wish.
The Nationalist political establishment, in their dogmatism, are clearly out of touch with ordinary nationalist people here. I’m surprised to see you, of all people, buying into that dogma Páid.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 02:54 PMQ. What is wrong with a Catholic child regarding themselves as Irish and believing that Dublin is their capital? For that matter, what is wrong with a Protestant child believing that they are British and believing that Belfast is their capital.
Answer (In both cases) - Absolutely Nothing !!<
Apart from that the Unionists probably consider London to be their capital…
It is the default assumption that’s so troubling - and I think it would trouble Casement, Emmet, Parnell and all the other Protestants who strove for the cause of Irish nationalism. I’m sure there are many Catholics loyal to the Crown too - and many more loyal to the fiscal transfers from London.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 03:00 PMGareth,
Because I am interested and want to know what is going on all over the island of Ireland.
Also, I have much in common with everyone in the north - most of which you would list out as reasons for everyone there to get along.
Everyone on the entire island has alot more in common with each other than they have with people in Britain. (furthermore let me say people in Ireland and the British Isles have a lot more in common than Ireland and anywhere else).
I admit that you probably have more in common with your fellow ulsterman than I have with him but the same is true for people from munster and connaught who have separate identies.
What I object to is people saying northerners have so much in common therefore northern ireland was drawn exactly the right way to encompass a shared identity and not one big gerrymander.
One other reason I am reading northern irish press is that I am moving there in a couple of months for good.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 03:01 PMPól
The reasons you state there about being interested in the NI press are exactly the same reasons I read southern things. Because I’m interested, and I share some identity. I also agree with you about NI being one big gerrymander. I think that it shouldn’t have happened, but realise that the situation then was hard to solve, but that’s not the point. It happened and we have to deal with it, whether we are for or against it.
What I’m trying to say is that people have shifting identities, and it is unfortunate if we can’t find anything within the state of Northern Ireland which links us. However, I think if you look at things like facebook, where young expats create groups, it is often things like food which they can coalesce around. By doing so we can ignore the religious divide and share something. We can care for the environment together as well. There’s no point fighting over a country if it’s under water!
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 03:31 PMThanks for the ermm.. compliment Sammy ;-)
Identity is a multi-faceted thing, mine enables me to cheer on the Lions for example, and NI (Irish) nationalists know there is a facet to their identity that is different from those over the border. Over the border, they are commonly perceived as somewhat different; they’re known as Nordies, they wear Celtic tops a lot, and don’t tell them they’re not really Irish after they’ve got 5 pint bottles of Bulmers in them.
I find the rural ones much like their cousins over the border in the southern Ulster counties, whereas many city types would have more in common with the city people of Scotland and even northern England in outlook, humour etc.
Just my perception.
Whither the children? Well, who’s surprised so many Nordie kids don’t see themselves as Irish? I’m surprised so many of them do. Kids notice the world around them. The British BC, the British education system, the British currency, the British shops, the British stamps, roadsigns, pillarboxes and the rest of it. In other words, the Britishness of Northern Ireland.
But they grow up, and they learn. And the number of them voting for younger, greener Nationalist parties increases inexorably.
Because they realise that Northern Ireland was created to make them strangers in their own land.
And I’m afraid Sammy, that this truth will always out.And I’m not recommending, and have never recommended imposing similar green stuff on the British people of Northern Ireland.
There we have it. A mess.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 04:31 PMDawkins and I Wonder,
Can you provide a link to the study showing that Catholic education causes sectarianism.IW is the Integrated school of the same educational standard as the CCMS school.
Your conclusions demonstate your own predujices…ie that u automatically think less of a catholic parent for sending their children to a catholic school.Suppose its an improvement from rabbit breeding vermin from old.
Parents will send their kids were they are SAFE,and will get the best education.
CCMS schools now account for over 50% of NI’s school children…therefore are you saying that over 50% of parents are thought less off?Take a look at CaltonRadio’s website and forum,check out Holy Cross,etc,read about the first shared campus attacks on catholic children in scotland….the hatred is unbelievebale and results in catholic kids getting killed….check out that last 10 deaths as a result of sectarian attacks…90% are P on C here and in scotland.
Child abuse indeed Dawkins!
Deal with religious hatred, the real elephant in the room or yes we will have the same old same old for the next 1000 years.
Confront that and deal with that reality and you may make head way with your desire.
Until then catholic parents will keep their kids in a safe environment and enjoy high education standards.
I think they are pretty happy with their lot…you dont…thats your problem!
I support them fully in their choice and commend them for doing the best for their children.Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 05:05 PMmatt - the then President of the RC church’ committee on education in Scotland,
“Catholic education is “divisive” and contributes to the problem of “sectarianism”, according to a Scottish bishop.
But Joseph Devine, Bishop of Motherwell, told the Sunday Herald newspaper it was sometimes “a price worth paying”. “http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2274383.stm
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 05:25 PMCruimh,
Its divisive and an enabler of sectarianism…we know that and understand why that is…and it highlights that i should elaborate my ‘causes sectarianism’ with ‘causes catholic sectarianism’...which was the charge….your link goes to on to indicate how cathoilc education doesn’t.
The point still stands…Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 05:36 PMMatt
Do you think religious hatred is the exclusive preserve of non-Catholics? That’s the clear implication as your alleging that my view/Dawkin’s view is a mere refinement of the despicable “vermin” slur.Its precisely because I dont approve of the choice of parents to educate their children in isolation from the other community here - when there is a clear viable alternative to separate education - that will help minimise ignorance and help prevent the suspicion/mistrust which can lead to hatred. As the subsequent poster demonstrates in their quote, divisiveness is clearly acceptable to some. I would suggest that it is particularly acceptable to those inclined to sectarianism.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 06:13 PMMatt,
Why do you think Protestant children attack Catholic children? Because of the colour of their skin?
I’ll put it more simply: what differentiates Protestant and Catholic children? Duh, religion, stoopid.
Take away that enforced religion and what do you get? Kids. Oh yes, they’ll be encumbered by the usual torments of childhood, but one they’ll be spared is sectarianism.
Are you seriously suggesting that separate faith schools don’t play a major role in nurturing religious hatred in Northern Ireland? Ever seen how school buses are targeted, how wearing the “wrong” uniform can get a kid a beating—or worse? Do you need a survey to confirm the obvious? Jeeze.
Like I said, let the kids choose which deity they wish to follow when they’re ready. In the meantime they’ll have grown up with their peers and the religion of their parents will be of little concern to them.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 06:23 PMThe stoning of buses, the attacks on the uniforms, the badges of separation are all apparently a price worth paying to ensure that the young are indoctrinated with one set of values and one only. God forbid they should get confused - better they be beaten senseless for the faith.
My example of parents avoiding an integrated school and sending their kids to a less convenient denominational school (without even checking the credentials of the integrated establishment) mentioned their religion just because the example is based on real life. I would have taken issue with non-Catholic parents doing the same thing.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 06:33 PMDawkins and I wonder
I have long shared your views on how the current status quo of the NI education system continues to breed an atmosphere of sectarianism. However, every time I air those views on this forum I end up getting pelters.
Matt
No-one is suggesting here that our sectarian tensions can be neatly attributed to the actions of the Catholic Church but it is mostly down the decision of that Church to exclude Catholic children from being taught in mainstream education, which has led to what is little more than an educational apartheid being the norm in Northern Ireland.
It has also led to the state system taking on a more Protestant flavour that what it ought to, but then this is hardly surprising if the number of Protestant kids greatly outnumbers the number of Catholic kids in those schools. For someone who has a substantial interest in Irish history it has always baffled me that, for instance, I learnt more about the Tudors and the Battle of Hastings at school than I did about the history of my own island.
If you grow up mixing only with people of the same faith as you then surely it is inevitable that children will nurture a suspicion and mistrust about those people who belong to a culture which they have never shared or known anything about.
A comparison could also be made in the fact that survey after survey has shown that, on average, people in Northern Ireland are more racist than the rest of the U.K. This may not sit comfortably with many people but surely these findings are not surprising if one considers that the ethnic make-up of NI is almost exclusively white. Ethnic minorities only amount to a minute percentage of the NI population when compared to most areas in Britain. So surely it stands to reason that people in NI will be more likely to harbour racist views than British people if they are more likely never to have encountered or befriended a person from another race than British people.
By the same token then surely our kids are more likely to perpetuate our sectarian ways if they are segregated from each other from a young age along sectarian lines?
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 07:09 PM
