Monday, June 18, 2007
And ursine mammals do indeed defecate in forested areas.
The Irish Times yesterday, via PA, had some of the reported findings of the BBC’s State of Mind survey [who will think of the children? - Ed] and the BBC follow up today with quotes from the report’s author, Professor Paul Connolly - “The key message emerging from our research is that many Catholic and Protestant children here still tend to live parallel and separate lives”. The findings shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone paying attention. And no, I don’t entirely agree with what he has to say
“One way of doing this is to encourage children’s sense of being Protestant or Catholic alongside also helping them to recognize that they are all part of a wider and shared identity as Northern Irish.”
Those stats the Irish Times noted
The survey revealed:
Over four fifths of Protestant children (84%) believed Belfast was the capital of their country compared to 39% of Catholics. Under half of Catholic children (47%) said Dublin was their capital compared to just 4% of Protestants.
Catholic children (51%) were five times more likely to see themselves as Irish compared to Protestant children (10%). Protestant children were nearly four times more likely to see themselves as British (58%) compared to Catholic children (15%).
However when children were asked if they were Northern Irish, there were roughly similar results — 53% of Catholics said they were and 49% of Protestants.
It’s been asked before, “a triumph of top-down politics”?
Pete Baker @ 08:55 AM
More catholic children see themselves as British than protestant children see themselves as Irish. That’s interesting.
‘Northern Irish’ isn’t an identity it’s a partisan slogan.
Academics in search of a fudged ‘third way’ identity should refer to an Atlas. It’s pretty clear from that wibbly line across the top of Ireland that, like it or not, the children within it’s borders are British.
The challenge for all the grown ups in the room is to make that an identity which genuinely gives room for, cherishes and embraces all other subordinate desires.(The geopolitical reality as opposed to the GFA rhetorical warmth). Bristish in Ireland can be completely different from british in Wales and Scotland and still be British. Oh and the toer challenge is to try and stop poisoning a predominantly homogenous group of white christian children with medieaval nonsense about how different they are bacaause of where they (don’t) go on a Sunday.
A red letterbox is still a red letterbox.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 09:44 AMHard to say how representative the survey is -
“A poll of 667 children chosen randomly from 35 schools across the North”
The children may have been chosen randomly, but how representative were the schools ?
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 09:49 AMIts not in the interest of most people in this country to even look at some kind of shared identity because most people only want their identity to be the shared one.
I know what people will say that this premise is wrong but tell me what people were being killed and maimed for for ages, and why we’ll still see killings on the same basis.
If the people really didnt want it, they could stop it and they certainly wouldnt vote the way they vote.
People should stop whinging about how terrible all this separation it is and accept that most of them fuel it by their attitudes and their votes.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 09:55 AMOne can be both British and Irish without fudging anything.
I would be interested in the number of children from mixed relationships and how they perceive themselves. Many adults I know choose the ‘other’ box regardless of community background. I would like to know how representative my experience is; maybe it’s so small statistically that it doesn’t matter, but I do have concerns that my own child will be perceived one way or another despite the fact that he is the product of two atheists with differing community backgrounds.
The capital of this country is London/Ireland depending on your views. Northern Ireland isn’t really a country in the sense, that say, France is. It’s 2/3 of a province. I’m not sure how old the kids are, but that’s confusing for many adults; for kids it must be too.
Maybe in a few years this whole sectarian thing will have blown over… Unionists will be hugging nationalists in the streets, and having a sing song over a pint of lager/orange juice (delete as appopriate).
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 10:17 AMI wonder what the situation would be were the parents to stop baptizing their children, and instead allow them to choose a religion (or none) when old enough to make such a judgement.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 10:40 AMOk. Before we get into all of this sanctimonious, self-righteous nonsense that these threads often descend into, lets look at this.
Q. What is wrong with a Catholic child regarding themselves as Irish and believing that Dublin is their capital? For that matter, what is wrong with a Protestant child believing that they are British and believing that Belfast is their capital.
Answer (In both cases) - Absolutely Nothing !!
Many very decent families choose to bring up their children with total and maximum respect for other children and communities, while also making them aware of what they regard as their identity and culture. If this is done in a respcetful manner, then there is absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with that.
What we have here is yet another forum and excuse for the usual array of Alliance Party types and would-be-socialists to lambast as sectarian anyone and everyone who regards themselves as being either Nationalist or Unionist. It’s nauseating to be quite honest…
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 10:41 AMMacswiney
What hole are you living in?
Many very decent families bring their children up with good values but still display attitudes which are racist, sexist and sectarian (add more isms as you like). Many families still have limited contact ‘with the other side.’ No one is saying that they are terrible people, but parents, grandparents, friends and family do have to take some responsibility for the fact that young children display sectarian attitudes and a woeful lack of understanding of ‘the other’.How can it be positive for children to continue living separate lives? That is what this is about.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 10:54 AMJust think - if we had integrated education all children could learn Irish. It would be easy to end the exclusion of the majority from a part of their cultural history. It would just be another part of the curriculum.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 10:58 AM“How can it be positive for children to continue living separate lives? That is what this is about.”
He isn’t arguing that. He is arguing that it isn’t positive to try and force a single identity on people who are perfectly happy with their own and do no harm with it. And that point crosses both sides.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 10:59 AMmacswiney
I think it would be a nice thing to do, whether people regard Dublin or London as their capital, to be Realpolitiker and accept that the entity of Northern Ireland exists. Whether people are nationalist or unionist they do similar things: watch BBC Northern Ireland, UTV, read Northern Irish media, buy products only available in Northern Ireland (e.g. Tayto!) among other things. Maybe that commoditizes identity, but it shows there are certain things which actually are Northern Irish. I think we need to note that we actually live on that particular parcel of land. We are governed by an assembly and have our own governmental and administrative systems. I think it is very curmudgeonly not to accept it, to refuse to share something concrete and relatively unproblematic which could be shared. I would not argue for Ulster nationalism or anything ideological like that, but there is something concrete which makes the place distinct from the rest of the UK or the state of Ireland.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 11:02 AMAnimus,
“Many very decent families bring their children up with good values but still display attitudes which are racist, sexist and sectarian (add more isms as you like)”
Remove religion from the equation and you have one -ism fewer. As Christopher Hitchens says, “Religion poisons everything.” It’s certainly true of Northern Ireland.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 11:12 AMKensei
How kind of you to jump to the rescue. But Macswiney is so busy being nauseated that the point is being lost. This is about how Catholic and Protestant children view themselves - if they think they are living in a different countries, isn’t it likely this will spill over to perceptions of their peers? It’s rather telling that Macswiney instantly whines about Alliance Party and socialism, rather than to consider the impact this may have on real children, and not blogging anoraks and their individual ideologies.The point is still this: if children are growing up clueless about ‘the other’ there will continue to be sectarian problems, misunderstandings and a waste of potential and resources to prop up this system.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 11:21 AMMacswiney´s right.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 11:23 AMkensei
But it isn’t about trying to force a single identity on anyone. Clearly, if half the kids surveyed can agree that they have a Northern Irish identity while also acknowledging they have another one (British or Irish), those children already understand that they have a multiple identity.
Identity is not singular, and I think the assumption that a Northern Irish identity is being forced on the children by asking them a question is definitely not a “partisan slogan”, as the first poster suggested. If children - who have, from the looks of things, not been taught about a Northern Irish identity - chose ‘Northern Irish’ as part of their identity, then it is a very real thing. It certainly is for me and thousands of other people, and those who deny its existence are living in cloud cuckoo land.
Out of the three identities discussed, ‘Northern Irish’ appears to be the one that is least ‘forced’ upon the children questioned.
Anyone who has ever described themself as Northern Irish to me has done it in terms of also acknowledging their Britishness and Irishness, or primarily Northern Irish with underlying British or Irish roots.
After all, identity is constructed, whether it’s Irish, British, Northern Irish or whatever combination an individual chooses.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 11:31 AMSorry, Gonzo, don’t buy it. The question isn’t the problem, the idea that policy should be directed to a particular identity result is. Identity is a bottom up phenomenon. Social Engineering to attempt to focus on particular politically expedient identity is wrong. It’s wrong when they attempt it in immigrant communities in England, and it’s wrong here. You have to tackle it indirectly and allow it to develop rather than cack handly head on.
I have little concept of a “Northern Irish” identity. It means nothing to me. Doesn’t mean I don’t respect other people, doesn’t mean I haven’t friends from other backgrounds (who’d take in both the other groups) and respect their choices. I do resent being told I should have some identity I have no interest in, or if I ever have kids I have to bring them up with a certain identity I don’t have. Butt out, basically.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 11:46 AM“Northern Irish” - it’s the 3rd way! Let’s start issuing passports. It also appears to be the winner in the next generation when asked the nationality question: “Are you British, Irish or Northern Irish”. I am getting a powerful sense of schadenfreude at the thought of all the nationalist/unionist idealogues squirming at the prospect of either a) an identity with the word “Irish” in it or b) an identity that is separate from the rest of Ireland.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:10 PMNew chant for Casement/Windsor Park: “We’re not Brazilians we’re Northern Irish”
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:11 PMKensei, Macswiney, agree with you point re forcing top down identity.
There is no inherent problem (or negativity) with parallel but seperate lives. Unforutnately this is painted at the problem as it has a ready made solution, if everyone live together they wihey will be nice and happy, the question is since when do you have to like everyone?
Now as you note there is a world of difference between being parallel but seperate and neutral, and parallel, seperate and antagonistic. It’s a flawed logic that thinks if you remove the parallel and sperate then you remove the antagnostic element. Why not just try to address this element?
This would require more honesty from both side when the neutral gives cover to the anatagonistic.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:20 PMAttempts to forge a Northern Irish identity are doomed.
It is based on loyalty to Northern Ireland, a state that was purposely designed so that British Nationalists would outnumber Irish Nationalists.
This they did, and this they do.
Don’t expect loyalty from Irish Nationalists.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:28 PMSurely for Gonzo to say that young children are already aware of the complex nature of their political identity is “a bottom up phenomenon”.
The point that we all live on the same parcel of land is also sound; as long as we do have shared cultural experiences, however tenuous, like UTV News, or just common knowledge, like how to drive from Belfast to Omagh without getting lost, we have, to some degree, common culture. Hence the validity of the Northern Irish construct.
Individuals may “have little concept of a “Northern Irish” identity” but individuals are hardly a statistically significant sample.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:36 PMWhy, do you think, does the PA copy state that..
“Encouragingly, around half of Catholic children and around half of Protestants were happy to be labelled as Northern Irish.”
??
Methinks the author of this copy did not quite understand what he was writing about.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:50 PMjust for clarification.. it’s the use of the word ‘encouragingly’ that i’m querying.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:50 PMAnimus,
Once gain you have missed the point and you are confusing very different issues here. Behind your comments lies the presumption that it is not possible to bring up a child with BOTH respect for other children and ALSO respect for their own culture.
I regard myself as being Irish and am from a broadly Nationalist background, but I chose to send my daughter to an integrated school. I wanted her to learn about children from many differing backgrounds and it was a very positive and enriching experience for her. She also developed a keen interest in Gaelic Sports and is a proficient Camogie player. She is also interested in Irish Folk music and plays several instruments to a very proficient level.
She has (without influence) developed her own identity in this world combining her Irish Cultural identity and influences with some very close friendships with other people from different religons. I am very proud of her. She is both a wonderful human being and wondefrul daughter and she will do many great things in her life. Of that I am very sure…
You cannot FORCE an identity on anyone Animus. Ironically, the Agreement is supposed to be fundamentally about mutual respect for other identities, but in your various replies to both myself and others, respect is the one thing that is sadly missing…
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:52 PMYou should never comment before you’ve read all the relevant info. i now see from reading the quotes from prof connolly that the source of the word ‘encouragingly’ is the survey itself.
“One way of doing this is to encourage children’s sense of being Protestant or Catholic alongside also helping them to recognise that they are all part of a wider and shared identity as Northern Irish. Perhaps the most positive finding from our research is that many children are already beginning to think in this way.”
Surely somebody doing a research study at Queens should understand that there is nothing inherently positive about the third identity? Undermines the whole thing, IMHO.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:56 PMMacswiney - I don’t want to force anyone to have an identity, far from it. I’m sure your wonderful child is amazing (you are possibly biased, but I know for certain my own child is the most amazing child born). But I’m also fairly sure that many parents DO force identity on their children. One way of doing that is to say one thing, but practice another. Anyone at all can pay lip service to the concept of respect. Your child and your experience may well not be the norm; in fact I suspect this to be the case (please read my first post on this where I raise that very question).
I think many posters are talking at cross purposes. I agree with Gonzo that one’s identity is fluid, and is often defined in opposition. If children choose to represent themselves as Northern Irish, why should adults who struggle with the idea of that? It might have been ‘encouraging’ to find out that 90% from each side view themselves as European. (I think it would have been interesting to ask a question in those terms as well).
Macswiney - I hardly think someone who talks about others being nauseating is in a good position to talk about respect. A person who is confident in their own identity is in the best position to respect others. Sadly, that is what is lacking in Northern Ireland, confidence. Most people who exhibit sectarian behaviour first encountered it at home. Not everyone is the kind and loving parent you are (I’m not being completely sarcastic either).
Bob - you are exactly right. One of the problems with the Shared Future is that is assumes that removing duplicate services and forcing people together will make all the divisiveness magically disappear. If that were true, it would have happened. Coersion will not be effective - some of the main problems, like poverty, will not be easily dismissed, and those are the issues which most need tended.
Posted by on Jun 18, 2007 @ 01:06 PM
