Sunday, November 23, 2008
“against parties which are fundamentally sectarian..”
On today’s Politics Show, vice-Chairman of the Conservative Party Northern Ireland, Jeffrey Peel, set out his party’s case for the “electoral pact” [and more? - Ed] with the UUP. Reaction round-up here. See also Michael’s noting of Tom Tim Roll-Pickering’s argument.
Pete Baker @ 02:01 PM
“against parties which are fundamentally sectarian”
the new party/arrangement/alliance wont be fundamentally secatrain but they will be significantly sectarian based on the utternace and behaviour of its members (e.g. Trimble doing a funny jig in Portadown with Paisley)
If Posh Boy David Cameron and the other double-barralled-named-quarefellahs are not prepared to join in Orange marches then he should not be joining a party, the majority of whose members, are keen supporters of these marches and whose outlook is deeply sectarian.
Great news for Nationalism and the Labour Party.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 03:20 PMFundamentally sectarian ? I wonder where the TUV electoral pact sits.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 03:41 PMThe two Republicans who have posted are furious in that the new Tory / UUP will ensure that Northern Ireland MPs elected from that alliance will be part of a UK Government party, further strengthening the Union.
Without doubt, the DUPes will loses a number of seats when the Westminster election comes around and Lady Hermon will have additional UUP / Conservative colleagues from Ulster.
Roll on that day !!
As to serctarianism, there are not as sectarian as Republicans, who murdered many just because they were Protestant.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 03:57 PMThe two Republicans who have posted are furious in that the new Tory / UUP will ensure that Northern Ireland MPs elected from that alliance will be part of a UK Government party, further strengthening the Union.
I’m glad you think I’m a republican, it makes a change from being called a small-u unionist.
The Tory/UUP alliance will have one seat out of 18 at Westminster. I don’t see any compelling reason to believe that this level of representation will strengthen the union, but I’m glad it makes you feel better.
Without doubt, the DUPes will loses a number of seats when the Westminster election comes around and Lady Hermon will have additional UUP / Conservative colleagues from Ulster.
Why ? Where do the UUP and DUP fundamentally differ, apart from in terms of their policy coherence ? The UUP are a joke. The DUP are corrupt, in hock with developers in one hand and crazy fundies on the other, but unlike the UUP they know how to get their vote out.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:12 PMWillie,
the splitting of the Unionist vote will suit Nationalism but will not suit the DUP - the alignment of the Tories with a sectarian party like the UU will suit the Labour Party.
The Tories if they wanted an ally should have sought out the Alliance, who recent behaviour aside have a mentality closest (of the Unionisty parties )to the Englezes on the mainland.
Not sure if you have inlcuded me as one of the 2 republicans - but this is absolutely excellent news for non-unionists (and non Tories) including myself.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:18 PMand Lady Hermon will have additional UUP / Conservative colleagues from Ulster….....
William have you checked with lady hermon to see with see will take the tory whip, bet ya havent lolPosted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:20 PMConservatives NI ?? what the fuck? why try to be sexy to the Irish electorate, why don’t you tell it to them straight, you all are Ulstermen and Ulster women, and there nothing to be ashamed about that, so why hide it?
The DUP are going to have field day on this.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:22 PMCS: don’t you think that the UUP have a chance in South Antrim ?
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:33 PMI’m the quintessential Tory Unionist - a snob, an integrationist and, natch, have a double starred-first in sneering at Orange-socked yahoos - but there’s not much in what Comrade Stalin up there says that I actually disagree with. The all new, old skool Unionist & Conservative Party will, at best, get *an* MP at the next election. And even that is likely to depend upon the DUP’s good graces vis-a-vis SB/FST (I’m writing off North Down - certain DUP gain - on the basis of what I’ve heard about what the widow’s ego is going to lead her to do ie a 3-way split between, an official ConUU candidate/Sylvia/& Goggly, will see the latter romp home). And in *any* environment where the arithmetic favours minor parties (the Lib Dems v much included in that status), the solitary Tory MP from Ulster will lump whatever Dave tells him, if a deal has to be cut with the dozen or so DUP MPs, all taking their seats . . .
But I’m still grinning too much at the way the Punt kippered the Shinners last week to really care one way or the other about the relatively petty issue of the eventual Westminster fate of my own lot. Unionism won a *huge* victory last week. Or rather, the huge victory Unionism had already won was fairly officially reemphasised, and then some. I’ve had to avoid Slugger of late because if I had to read too many desperate efforts from Provettes I think I probably would have laughed myself to death.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:35 PMIf the Tories really thought ( which no one else does) that Norn Iron is really a normal part of the UK they could offer full integration with the rest of the UK (that would mean no more SF ). They would probably win the majority of Uninoist seats - delivering safety of the Union. Constitutionally because of the GFA they cant do that as they ceded control to the ROI - in the absence of that they stay at home.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 04:57 PMInteresting mixture of posts, most based on nothing other than concern(at best)over a mainland unionist party orgsnising in NI.
They should look at the real polling to see the potential for the new party (I think still available in the press archives and perhaps in the NI Cons website) if they commented based on some reasonable basis then their posts might mean something.
I therefore don’t really have to promote the new alliance as everthing said against it proves just how much impact it has already had in the other political parties.
However the real poll is in June, let us see how that works out when some professional campaigning comes to NI.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 06:14 PMslug:
I’m the wrong person to ask about electoral predictions. South Antrim was tight enough last time though.
Sammy:
The Tories if they wanted an ally should have sought out the Alliance, who recent behaviour aside have a mentality closest (of the Unionisty parties )to the Englezes on the mainland.
Now you’re definitely trolling.
The Tory tieup is a complete waste of time, a mad shot in the dark. Any time UK-wide political parties have tried to run here, they failed. The worst ever result for the Conservatives in an election was the result they won in North Down, in 1995. I have no idea how the UUP think they are going to be able to derive something useful from this. But it will be interesting to see how it turns out.
Personally I hate the Tories (except for the nice ones like Patten, Hurd or Major) and I couldn’t support any political party that had anything to do with them.
Why am I still a UUP voter:
The problem is not the message (which between the UUP and the DUP is the same - “we support the union because it’s good, so there”). The DUP’s electoral organization completely wipes the floor with the tired-out UUP; it’s a party which, like the SDLP, has grown up in an environment where it never had to fight elections - the votes would roll in either way. Once a competing party organizes itself and gets a consistent message and a bit of energy behind it, the writing is on the wall. I think that modern elections in NI are still largely won or lost on the basis of the party’s tribe, but after that, on the basis of the community service provided by the elected rep in the local area. It’s no coincidence that both the DUP and SF have built up a fearsome reputation for being effective “fixers” who get problems sorted.
On top of that, the UUP can’t decide whether it’s a party of generally decent moderates (like our resident UUP poster, John East Belfast) or slash and burn extremists like David Burnside. Why do people like Burnside feel that their home is in the UUP rather than the DUP, alongside people like, say, Sylvia ?
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 06:28 PMTruth is of course that even if they get no seats athe next General Election the NI Tories and the UUP will have more influence on Cameron than any of the 18 MPs
Very amusing to see the latent anti Britishness of DUP posters coming out.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 06:36 PM“The DUP’s electoral organization completely wipes the floor with the tired-out UUP”
And yet Comrade, I have to refer again to those pundits who said the Conservative Party would never hold power again after the first Labour trouncing. Never say never. People are pretty tired of the DUPers and their shenanigans.
One example? Today alone, Mr Storey said that the intervention from Churches on the 11 plus issue was “helpful” and showed “moral” support for the position of selection. I’d like to think that increasingly people will turn from the Mullahs of the DUP, and perhaps this intervention from the Tories here may assist that turning.
All I’m saying is, is that there’s no such thing as never in politics. As a very liberal Prod, however, I still have nowhere to cast a vote, and may yet - on the suggestion of Ann from an earlier thread - have to turn to the Green Party to assuage my non-voting guilt.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 06:41 PMfd,
However the real poll is in June, let us see how that works out when some professional campaigning comes to NI.
I don’t know what’s going on, do people have short memories ? The Conservatives have been doing their “professional campaigning” here since the late 80s/early 90s. It peaked with that guy Lawrence Kennedy. They dumped piles of resources into the North Down by-election in 1995.
The DUP and Sinn Fein have professional campaigning over here all wrapped up.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 06:50 PMBy the way, we are discussing a deal which hasn’t actually been done yet!
(I also wonder what Mr Peel’s new “colleagues” will think of being described, by implication, as not “a proper party”?)
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 07:06 PMCameron will now be able to call on the help of Billy Armstrong to learn about planning matters or how to avoid them.Wonder how Cameron will deal with so many family members employed by the UUP MLAs(Billy will be able to help him again)
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 07:06 PMAnd yet Comrade, I have to refer again to those pundits who said the Conservative Party would never hold power again after the first Labour trouncing. Never say never. People are pretty tired of the DUPers and their shenanigans.
Politics over here is a weird bubble, you can’t really compare it with what happens elsewhere in the UK. So far, each party has moderated itself, and in turn been replaced by a less moderate variant. This suggests that the UUP needs to reinvent itself and make itself more extreme. I don’t think that is going to happen.
And as I said before, I think a lot of the fortunes of the local parties here rest on the effectiveness of the elected representatives on a community level.
And the reason why UK parties generally do not do well here is because people just don’t feel they are closely integrated with the UK. The “integrationist” thing to me is a red herring. Unionism was never about the union, it was about being not Irish, and that’s why the Stormont arms-length administration, a decidedly not integrationist arrangement, was so popular. We’re perceived as a bunch of irresponsible spongers by the people whose votes the Conservative Party are really interested in - not without a degree of justification.
One example? Today alone, Mr Storey said that the intervention from Churches on the 11 plus issue was “helpful” and showed “moral” support for the position of selection. I’d like to think that increasingly people will turn from the Mullahs of the DUP, and perhaps this intervention from the Tories here may assist that turning.
I think Alliance have already said this.
All I’m saying is, is that there’s no such thing as never in politics. As a very liberal Prod, however, I still have nowhere to cast a vote, and may yet - on the suggestion of Ann from an earlier thread - have to turn to the Green Party to assuage my non-voting guilt.
I would be interested to hear why Alliance are ruled out. Liberal prods, taigs, and none of the above are the party’s target demographic.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 07:21 PMComrade Stalin
Unionism was never about the union, it was about being not Irish
One of the most astute observations ever made on Slugger.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 07:52 PMCS
You think the DUP and SF know how to campaign? Their previous campaigns have shown no sign of that.
I think you may learn a lot in the next year or so, about campaigning and winning elections in the 21st century.
Watch closely.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 08:50 PM#
CS
You think the DUP and SF know how to campaign? Their previous campaigns have shown no sign of that.
I think you may learn a lot in the next year or so, about campaigning and winning elections in the 21st century.
Watch closely.
Posted by frustrated democrat on Nov 23, 2008 @ 07:50 PMwhy wait, the tories have been here for years and they have performed abysmally, what on earth do you think is going to change now? They will just take whats left of the UUP down with them
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 09:39 PMFor those who think unionism was always about not being Irish, I suggest they go to the city hall and look at the statues of Irishmen (and defined as such) who were also servants of the Empire. To say unionists have never seen themselves as Irish is wrong, though it has grown to be the case. Even David Ervine though accepted the Irish part of his identity.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 10:15 PMI would suggest that the ‘fundamentally sectarian’ line could very easily slip into ‘decent people’ territory
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 10:51 PM??
The Tories have never campaigned here in any serious way since the early 1990’s as they didn’t expect to win seats, watch what happens now they do.
As Labour have already found out to their cost they have a formidable machine.
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 11:21 PMIf the link up between the UUP / Conservatives is so ‘mad’, ‘a waste of time’, etc etc, why are there over 20 postings about it….to me it is obvious that many non-UUP supporters really see that this is a great idea and are raging about it. As it will be a vote winner at the European election with Jim Nicholson [easily the best of the three MEPs]increasing his vote and when the Westminster Election comes around, a number of the current DUPe MPs will be getting the ‘chiltern hundreds’ on their electoral demise.
Bring it on….I can’t wait !!!!
Posted by on Nov 23, 2008 @ 11:23 PM
