Tuesday, May 29, 2007
About that Charter..
The UTV report on the launch of Sinn Féin’s Charter for Unionist Engagement provides some of the detail outlines of their strategy.. although I suspect that it was written in the expectation of a different result from last week’s Irish General Election.. Adds Charter available here [4.17Mb pdf file]
ANYhoo.. according to the report
Sinn Fein`s new charter for unionist engagement outlined how the party would protect the rights of all sections of society in a united Ireland and sets out how it will engage unionists and other groups about its strategy.
The document, which was also launched by Stormont Agriculture Minister Michelle Gildernew and Foyle Assembly member Martina Anderson, vowed to:
:: Campaign for a new agreed Irish Constitution based on the separation of powers between the executive, legislature and judiciary which would be endorsed by the people and also press for a charter of rights.
:: Decentralise decision-making to empower citizens and include minorities in the processes which impact on their lives.
:: Ensure all groups including those traditionally excluded from economic, social and political power are given equal rights and respect.
:: Make sure government delivers not only tolerance towards all religions, races and marginalised groups but eradicates sectarianism, racism and other forms of discrimination.
:: Guarantee a full separation between Church and state, with civil and religious liberty for all, everyone free to practice their faith and no religion having a preferential position in society.
:: Promote a national reconciliation process across Ireland.
Perhaps they should have launched that before the Irish General Election? [Perhaps not - Ed]
Adds According to the Charter, “the media” has responsibilities..
The Media
In a democratic society the role of a free press is essential. The media has a responsibility to reflect the diversity of society, to set a positive context for engagement on the basis of our common humanity and to work to end all forms of prejudice, stereotyping and the degradation of human beings.
Which I think we may have heard before..
Pete Baker @ 03:20 PM
Anything about how people who have murdered other people for what - suprise, surprise - turns out to have been no good reason after all should go to prison? The Provos did the crime, they should do the crime - nothing in that vein? Oh well then, I’m sorry for having had the bad taste to have raised it here. Back to serious consideration of Sinn Fein’s sincere proposals for ‘national reconciliation’ & the proper working of the legal system.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 03:36 PMWN,
You are a one trick pony. We get the idea. Fancy adding something further rather than your relentless spamming of every topic with the same single transferable post?
Jesus christ if you’re going to troll every thread at least have a b-side.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 03:39 PMEngagement seems to = spewing the same old.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 03:43 PMYes, it’s getting somewhat annoying now.
I’d have to read the document, but the list above seems to suffer from the same problems that where levelled at the manifesto - it’s all broad brush strokes. How does it translate into action and policy in the short to medium term?
Those are worthy goals but way ahead of the situation - engagement needs smaller and less ambitious steps at the moment.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 03:45 PM“: Decentralise decision-making to empower citizens “
What the f**k does that claptrap mean?
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 03:48 PMOver a decade ago there was much talk of a new constitution in the South which only died away when politicans in Dublin realised how soon they would need to negotiate one with the Northern unionists.
This seems to be Sinn Fein building on those earliers discussions to get off to a running start. Would anyone oppose a secular state except perhaps the hierarchy?
It’s also good to see that Sinn Fein is continuing to insist on the need to build a culture of recognition for citizen’s rights, like the right to decent healthcare and housing.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 03:50 PMHey! and *I’ve* got the message too! Sinn Fein supporters don’t want other folk to talk about Sinn Fein’s elephantine corpse in the attic - their habit of murdering other folk. Well tough. You can whistle for silence on that one. Or what they going to do? Start murdering the people who remind them about all the people they murdered? Sinn Fein aren’t treated, by me or by the overwhelming bulk of the Southern electorate, as a ‘normal’ political party because they’re not. They barely paused sectarian killers, and they’re going to be reminded of that until the day they die.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 03:55 PMThat’s a very inconvenient thing to point out WN. Please restrict to “helpful” posts. I.e. those congratulating SF one their wonderful efforts to reach out to their oppressors.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 03:59 PM“Hey! and *I’ve* got the message too! Sinn Fein supporters don’t want other folk to talk about Sinn Fein’s elephantine corpse in the attic - their habit of murdering other folk. Well tough. You can whistle for silence on that one. Or what they going to do?”
Oddly, this topic has come up before on here. Lots, in fact. Turning every single thread into a discussion of the merits or otherwise of the IRA campaign is simply a way of avoiding the issues raised in a thread and is crushingly tedious to boot, as more or less everyone has fixed positions they won’t budge on.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:15 PMIS THAT IT???
Is that what they’ve been hyping up for a couple of weeks now?
Vacuous just doesn’t quite sum it up really.
Its so cliched that Catrina Ruane or Mary Lou must have had a big hand in it.
I mean....
“The world of academia has a valuable role to play in facilitating discussions
around the shape and form of a new Ireland.”Where exactly do they state something they’ll actually do?? Mind you - after the Irish election we all know that SF are a bit light on the specifics....
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:26 PMIs there any blog software available yet that allows editors to drag certain comments into a parralel column? No need for censorship but you’d have the effect of an attempt at sensible consideration in the main column with mad people shouting from the sidelines.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:26 PMSurely in the interests of parity of esteem we should now encourage Mad Dog Adair to reach out to Republicans and seek to persuade them of the atttractions of his preferred political dispensation. Mad Dog and Martina would complement each other perfectly.
This “outreach” stuff is a patronising stunt guaranteed to deepen existing divisions. A genuine unself-conscious programme of conciliation would be done in discreet ways that really made a difference. Sinn Fein could begin by laying off the strident obsession with Irish Unity and get down to the practical job of delivering a better Northern Ireland for all.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:26 PMKid yourself if you want that it’s a single transferable post - it’s not. It’s bespoke, and in this particular instance it stemmed directly from Sinn Fein’s
Campaign for a new agreed Irish Constitution based on the separation of powers between the executive, legislature and judiciary which would be endorsed by the people and also press for a charter of rights ... all groups ... are given equal rights and respect ... eradicates sectarianism ... Promote a national reconciliation process across Ireland.
If they’re going to talk the talk, all well and good, but the next stage is walking the walk. People who claim to care about ‘reconciliation’ have got to face up to what it is that *they* did that has left the vast majority of the rest of us unreconciled to them.
But you’ll forgive me, I trust, for some hollow laughter at the idea of Slugger being subject to repeated, systemic auto-thought and spam-posting. Have you read the Provettes recently? If not, you’re one of those fortunate few who have only joined us in the wake of the Irish general election, and are therefore reading a Slugger where the Provettes have been curiously shy of late.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:28 PMYeah, yeah Jaffa, people who don’t sign up for your line are ‘mad’. Outreach you too son.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:34 PMSo, ignoring the spambot, do Unionists see anything to fear or reject in the document?
Is an open dialogue based on listening and accepting sincerity and integrity an acceptable starting point for engagement?
I can’t see anything that would seem like attempts to Republicanise Unionists or address the national question, to me it looks like addressing the fractured relationships in society together as we move into a more stable future.
That’s got to be a good thing?
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:37 PM“Yeah, yeah Jaffa, people who don’t sign up for your line are ‘mad’. Outreach you too son.”
Not everyone who disagrees with you is a “Provette”. Clue’s in the name on that one.
Your argument might stand up if you hadn’t went through every other thread on SF at the moment pulling it to precisely the same line, or if your original post had have addressed any single issue in the original blog.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:38 PMWhatever Next
If I may intervene, I think the criticism being made of you isn’t that you’re not entitled to raise the points you have raised, it’s just that to continually raise the same points regardless of - indeed independent of - context is, well, just quite boring really.
Clearly you feel very strongly about this but I’m not sure Slugger is the best therapy.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:40 PMSuperSoupy
The vast vast majority of unionists wont bother looking at the document either because they dont want to engage with SF, or because they know what rubbish will be in it.From the (quick) scan I’ve had of it its just full of platatudes but not much actual talk of action from SF to actually do something which might take the interest of the unionist community and persuade them.
Typically of SF everyone else but them have a role to play but they’re going to be generous enough to ‘faciliate’ that process blah blah blah blah.
Its really so close to satire that it isn’t funny any more. You really could to selected readings to comedy nights…
“Youth are the future and are the most valuable asset in any society
Yes.... and?
“Young people have the potential to be the catalyst that moves us beyond the divisions of the past and into a new future”
Yes indeed, but how? And how exactly does this constitute unionist engagement from republicans?
“We must educate our youth and encourage them to respect and accept difference as something that is healthy and positive in society”
Yes indeed, all very well. And will you encourage them not to protest against their Protestant neighbour’s cultural activities?
There is absolutely zero real content in it. They really should get done under the Trades Decscriptions Act.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:43 PMIncipient paranoia is always a troubling sign Jaffa, maybe your handle is confusing you? For you see, much like everyone else reading the thread can too, I didn’t accuse you of being a Provette. Whereas I did specifically tackle Sinn Fein’s claim that it wants ‘reconciliation’. And the principal thing which needs to be reconciled as far as Sinn Fein is concerned is its historic legacy of having murdered so many people, so pointlessly.
My response to their ‘outreach’ has been entirely to the point. Sad to say, Sinn fein have *no* interest in reconciling anyone, for if they did, they’d start addressing the fact of their having murdered so many people. They don’t have to wait for anyone else to start addressing their pasts - they could get on and do ‘the right thing’ if that’s what they’re sincerely interested in. They’re not, and that’s why they don’t.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:46 PMinterested,
It’s early days yet and Sinn Fein will get better at this stuff. Could you show us some examples of unionist outreach so that we could learn how it should be done?
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:51 PMBusiness
“Political stability, reconciliation and economic unity are essential to unlocking the economic dynamic necessary to meet the needs of all the people who live on this island. The business sector has a key role to play in this process”Yes of course - it all revolves around economic unity. Mind you, forgive me if I don’t take economic lessons from SF. Leaving aside the “an all-Ireland strategy is the solution to every problem from the price of beef to global warming” nonense, what exactly does this paragraph say? Nothing.
And again, “the business sector has a role to play”. What role? What should they do? And most importantly, what the bloody hell are SF intending to do? The answer to the last one of course is sod all except wave around this fairly poorly written and even more poorly produced document around as what they have “done” and all they’re ever going to do.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:53 PMInterested,
The first page you quote is a list of those groups that should be part of a process of engagement. It isn’t the content.
The 2nd page is about the issues that should be engaged on an is quite comprehensive. There are no defined steps being put forward as the intention is clearly about creating a dialogue to address a long list of failed areas together.
It isn’t about telling people how it should be sorted out but putting a list of things that need addressed together and suggesting a framework for dialogue to address them.
You don’t think the issues raised are things we need to address together?
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 04:53 PMSweet Billy, real sweet: “Clearly you feel very strongly about this but I’m not sure Slugger is the best therapy”. Yet another Republican happy with that good ole Soviet habit of pronouncing mentally ill someone who doesn’t think the same way as him. Still, at least no <a >’even Unionists’ smears</a> from you this time? Well, not yet anyway.
And still the Republican bluffing continues. I’ve directly raised, from the start, the fact that if Sinn Fein are *genuinely* interested in reconciliation, then they need to address they thing that has left most people unreconciled to them - namely the fact that they murdered so many people. Such Republican response as there has been to this has been to pretend that they dislike the tenor of my comments. Sure you do. Still doesn’t alter the fact that Sinn Fein have zero interest in the reconciliation they claim they want to pursue. And this is evidenced most clearly by their refusal to address all those murders they commited.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 05:00 PMSuperSoupy
“There are no defined steps being put forward as the intention is clearly about creating a dialogue to address a long list of failed areas together.”No of course not, some defined steps would be too much to ask.
But then actually formulating policies isn’t Sinn Fein’s strong point. I’ll engage with them when they actually say something worth bothering about.
I think there are lots of nice issues in there - lets all work together to make the sun shine.... Lets all hold hands and skip through the fields together. Ignoring any nasty stuff like the fact that SF actively and openly encourages people to vocally and actively oppose unionist cultural activities.
There may well be issues that need addressed together - but this was the SF charter for engagement. What do they propose to do to actually encourage engagement? They cant sit back and carp that the nasty prods dont like them. They shouldnt have needed a scientist to tell them that - mind you, they’ve disappeared so far up their own a*se with their propaganda that maybe they really do believe that everyone should come running at their beck and call.
It was for SF to actually propose something - they failed. They wanted some nice headlines and have probably got it. Within the unionist community it’ll probably be greeted with a combination of managing to wind people up and once people have read it they’ll be even more wound up because they’ll realise that they got the headlines with zero content.
Mission accomplished I suppose.
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 05:03 PMAs a soft unionist who could easily be persuaded into a 32 county Republic under the correct favourable conditions I can tell you one thing - that it won’t be Sinn Fein’s engagement who’ll be doing it. Why exactly should I look to the nasty party of Irish republicanism at all? There are sufficient Republican parties (i.e. parties who have any influence in the Republic!) who I respect and would happily vote for. Why talk to the horse’s hindquarters when its mouth is much more pleasant to engage with?
Posted by on May 29, 2007 @ 05:14 PM
