Tuesday, October 07, 2008
Abortion campaign moves into action for Commons move
The last time I blogged on the abortion campaign in Northern Ireland in June, it dropped like a stone. I’m glad to say that the campaign is full of life and is carrying the cause to London. This effort will almost certainly fail and may not even reach the floor of the House of Commons. Much depends on Harriet Harman who is minister for women as well as the organiser of Commons business. It made waves at Westminster in July by exposing divisions at the very top of government over priorities- which was more important, the rights of women ( Harriet Harman), or the stability of the NI Executive (Gordon Brown)? But Diane Abbott’s amendment to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill to extend the GB Abortion act to the province offers a platform that may cause guidelines - deemed vague and restrictive by the family Planning Association - to be eased over time. It look four years and a judicial rebuke to force even this statement out of Stormont. The Pro-Choice campaign claims that: “..these warnings (of the illegality of abortion in the guidelines) suggest that even the small number of abortions that are carried out at present and which, the guidelines confirm, are illegal - those carried out for reasons of foetal abnormality - will now cease. Attrition and persistence in a long process of education is probably the route to civilisation. As with gay rights, there are plenty of people in public life who duck the issue but who would privately tolerate abortion if it was enacted. If you can spare the time from picking at the old sectarian sores, it would be interesting to know where Slugger opinion stands.
Brian Walker @ 07:58 AM
Brian,
I see you are against all ireland and all uk politics for the off shore colony but are in favour of imposing abortion over the heads of the northern irish people from london… inconsistency?
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 09:56 AMHow ironic that political parties at long last agree on something - no abortion for NI. Part of the problem is the lack of political leadership to promote public debate (or even within their own parties) presumably because it is a moral issue likely to be political dynamite and divisive within.
Also,although abortion is relevant to mens world as well as women, it is no coincidence that politicians, predominately male, continue to sidestep responsibility to deal with the probolem of numbers who go from NI to England to have an abortion.
Another aspect of the problem in the context of NI is that abortion tends to be discussed in “prolife” V “antichoice” terms. I think that consensus on changes to the law could be reached if this was presented as based on other grounds.
For instance I would never be convinced on the argument of a women’s right to chose or abortion on demand. I would want to protect the unborn from being devalued. However, I have come to be convinced on grounds of compassion and pragmatism that the present position is untenable. Why not define in law ijn NI circumstances when a women in NI may legally have an abortion,aiming to keep the stage in pregnancy as low as medically feasible? Why not put more resources into practical help for those who seek abortions because they feel they cannot cope?.
Finally, I see the way this issue is not dealt with as being but another example of the consequences of living in a male dominated,conservative society.
Granni TrixiePosted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 10:20 AMWe live in the UK and that the laws that are in force in the rest of the UK should apply here.
The hypocrisy and religious dogma that are applied to this subject are shameful, we have 1,000 women per year (that we know of) who are forced to go to GB to have abortions at increased cost. This attempt to enforce their non abortion viewpoint on others is what we have come to expect of the extremist reglionists, and even some others who should know better, in our society.
They should believe what they want to and let others do as they wish, if doctors are free to make their own decisions as to whether or not they wish to be involved then there is no reason to impose their beliefs on others.
I do however think the current 26 weeks (I think) is too late I would go for 16-18 weeks as a max at which stage independent life is not even remotely possible.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 10:26 AMFD
“We live in the UK and that the laws that are in force in the rest of the UK should apply here. “
There has never been 100% uniformity in law across the UK.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 10:30 AM“it would be interesting to know where Slugger opinion stands”
climate change seems more important than saving the unborn child....
save the trees but kill the child....
shame on the UK Government, shame on anyone who chooses to kill their baby.
when is that right?
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 10:31 AMBW
“Attrition and persistence in a long process of education is probably the route to civilisation.”
So opponents to abortion are implicitly stupid ie in need of a ‘long process of education’ and beling cavalier about human life is ‘civilisation’?
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 10:34 AM“Attrition and persistence in a long process of education is probably the route to civilisation.”
@ Fair Deal - it sounds like the policy of a Dictatorship....
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 10:44 AMTo judge from the response to any suggestion of more liberal abortion laws in NI, you would believe that it was proposed to make it compulsory.
Availablity of abortion does not require anyone to have a termination against their will or anyone to participate in the procedure.
If distaste for abortion is so overwhelming in the local population, we can expect that very few operations would ever be performed.Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 11:02 AMFD
I know, but why should we have different laws anywhere in the UK?
But that is another discussion for another day on another topic.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 11:02 AMBrian
To be fair, the abortion issue has come up on numerous occasions in the past, even sneaking its way onto posts where it was clearly inappropriate.There is a huge appetite for debate on the issue in my opinion, but on a more male-oriented blog such as this, you tend to get a less liberal and less tolerant perspective from those making comments.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 11:39 AMGcpagh - “If distaste for abortion is so overwhelming in the local population, we can expect that very few operations would ever be performed.”
Thats hardly the point....
The majority of people look unfavorably on grevious bodily harm and there is a law against it....
The majority of people look unfavorably on abortion and there exists provision to accommodate it....
it disney make nay sense....
but of course i come from a male perspective(as Miss fitz writes - “but on a more male-oriented blog such as this...") and therefore my opinion is less tolerant and liberal… towards the right to life of the unborn.... i think not
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 11:58 AMThere should not be any law regulating the right of a woman to chose for herself. The law should confine itself to details such as what period is appropriate for an abortion to be generally carried out. No limit when the mother’s life is in imminent danger.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 12:53 PMBefore anyone jumps all over me, I should have added that I am not in favour of abortion. I simply support the right of a woman to have sole authority over her own body. It doesn’t effect me, thankfully.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 01:00 PMThank God there is finally some debate happening here around abortion. The current situation is the most appalling example of one law for the rich and another for the poor, as in practice we have abortion on demand for those with a spare five or six hundred quid and no safe abortion at all for everyone else. The sooner we grow up and stop pretending that what happens across the water doesn’t happen, the better. We’re creepily capable of ignoring what happens right here, too, though - a Middlesex university study found that 11% of NI GPs have seen the results of amateur abortions. Horrific.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 01:33 PMIt is important to remember that 40 women a week are currently travelling to the UK and Europe from Northern Ireland to have abortions. This is the reality.
Why should women in NI have to pay for travel and services which are freely available on the NHS elsewhere in the UK. Women should have access to safe and legal abortions here!
Add your voice to extend the 1967 Abortion Act to NI at
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/abortionNI/Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 02:25 PMGlencoppagagh,
Availablity of abortion does not require anyone to have a termination against their will or anyone to participate in the procedure
Then you miss the point: being that an abortion involves two direct participants, one of whom has not been consulted.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 02:27 PMAs a female reader of Slugger I am opposed to the Abbott amendment. Talk about rights is not enough. There is more than one life at stake in the decision.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 02:50 PMIf you wish to add your voice to oppose
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Anti-Abortion/Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 02:50 PMBrian is really pushing this, so much so its sickening. It is quite clear, his partiality on this issue, absent from most others in politics. He should be ashamed of himself for trying to impose legislation over the heads of the voting electorate. Long live democracy eh Brian, no need to vote on it, lets just have it because you want to push the agenda here.........
If the people in NI want abortion put it to the vote not trample over their democratic wishes by dragging it in through a back door....or are the pro choice people afraid of losing.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 02:52 PMNo human being is ever just an incubator, and no-one should ever be forced to be pregnant. Ultimately, it has to be the woman’s decision because the alternatives are too awful.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 02:56 PMA Wile Melee
“The majority of people look unfavorably on grevious bodily harm and there is a law against it....”
And the vast majority of people do not engage in it.Lurker
“an abortion involves two direct participants, one of whom has not been consulted”
Nor was it consulted on its conception.
Your implication is when does a foetus begin to have a sentient existence and that’s an argument about time limit, not abortion itself.It’ll be a pity if there’s not debate at Westminster so that SF’s ‘progressive’ credentials (and abstentionist polciy) could be put under the spotlight.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 03:13 PMHaving wavered between arguments over the years I now find myself thinking it’s a good thing an abortion is difficult to get. Because unfortunately there are plenty of people out there, male and female alike, who would view abortion as a form of contraceptive.
Women here who feel the need an abortion will have to pay over the odds to get it. They still can get it, it’s just making it easy I think is a bad idea.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 03:37 PMPro-choice arguments always try to address every issue but the real one. It is a scientific fact that a human being’s life begins at conception - not when it becomes sentient, or “viable”, or valuable to society or able to vote. And no one has the right to destroy another innocent human being. That’s the issue.
No doubt Spotlight tonight will trot out the same old same old.
It’s so predictable that pro-choicers will raise the following issues:
- poverty - why poor women can’t have something that rich women can. It’s not relevant. All we can do is establish the law here - we can’t stop women travelling to do this.
- one law for UK - someone has dealt with this. the UK is a quasi federal state with different laws for different regions/countries.
- women are having abortions and we have to accept this reality - women are also being raped, physically abused, robbed, discriminated against. Since when did the prevalence of a crime suggest it should be legalised?
- women’s lives are at risk - they are not. Countries which have bans on abortion (such as Ireland) have the lowest maternal death in the world.
- there is legal confusion that needs clarified - that’s fine - so we clarify that it is illegal to procure an abortion because of fetal abnormality and that there are no medical circumstances in which abortion is the only solution - seems clear enough to me.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 03:58 PMAnn, I fail to see why it’s more “sickening” to have a point of view on abortion than on anything else. Slugger contributors are not known for hiding their lights under a bushel. Abortion rights are general in the “free world.” These arguments have been heard before and have been overborne by majority public opinion. Yes I know that doesn’t make them “right” but thats not the point I’m making. I suggest Patricia (hello Patricia) Mallon’s opinion is worthy of respect even by abortion opponents.
Fair Deal, I admit I’m being a bit provocative and reacting against the sanctimoniousness and complacency of closed minds. I don’t believe Ireland north and south can stand for ever on a near-absolute ban. The legal route through ECHR is possible and a case affecting the Republic will soon be heard. The fact that all NI MPs and most MLAs are opposed has force of course but it is not a complete answer, as this is not a devolved matter. It is a bit odd, to say the least, that the opinion of Parliament is so blithely dismissed by unionists in advance but then they have never been noted for bending to the will of Parliament if they don’t agree with it. Also, if we slavishly relied on elected representatives alone to build the good society, where would we be? The advocates of legalising abortion don’t take it lightly. Case by case, it is agonisingly difficult.
Neill you say, “there are plenty of people out there, male and female alike, who would view abortion as a form of contraceptive.” Not at all typical Neill, tragically and unnecessarily drastic and if you study it a little you’ll learn about the damage underneath. Bad cases make bad law. Your comment shows the need for continuous debate. Whatever contributors feel on the issue, I hope they agree that women should feel welcome to take part on issues on which, whatever the opinion, the experience is different. It’s really embarrassing in C21 to read again how offputting this blog can be to women.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 04:06 PMGood God! I have a wedding to go to in March. I just cannot stay pregnant. None of my clothes will fit and I won’t be able to drink or dance. Some contributor on Radio 6 cos said that if this new measure is not brought in, then women will vote with their feet. Have they not already voted with their pudendae? Do they not know what happens when a man puts u-know-what inside them? Nobody has the right to take another’s life and humans will not survive on their own at three months old.
Posted by on Oct 07, 2008 @ 04:09 PM
