Monday, June 19, 2006
A game of two halves…?
There’s a few things worth returning to in Drew Nelson’s Irish Times interview. This statistic is one of them:
“In the first 20 years of the Troubles four Orange halls were burnt, one of which was in Cavan. But since 1989 there were 240 burnt. It is significant that at around the same time the republican movement started to oppose our parades. There was occasional bother before that but not to this extent.”
So is it a meaningless coincidence? Does it relate to reactionary factors, like changes in the type of Loyalist violence? British countermeasures? Or is it simply part of a ‘war by other means’ designed to undermine confidence in the Unionist community?
Mick Fealty @ 09:05 PM
Or is it simply part of a ‘war by other means’ designed to undermine confidence in the Unionist community?
Mick
The Orange Order and unionist leaders do that quite well on their own, Mick.
It’s hardly a coincidence that attacks on Orange halls would escalate as the Orangemen who frequented them were being widely blamed for organising street protests, road blockages and, by their arrogance and sheer obstinance, cultivating a frightening intimidatory atmosphere across the six counties every summer which led to hundreds of attacks on catholic families and their homes, and ultimately the pyrrhic Drumcree victories and the appalling murder of the Quinn children.
Attacks on Orange halls, like attacks on properties belonging to other political, cultural or religious organisations, are wrong and shouldn’t happen.
But the idea that the poor Orangemen have been the blameless victims of a relentless ceasefre era republican campaign is not only ridiculous, but ignores any factual evidence about the relationship between the loyal Orders and the nationalist community.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 09:33 PMThat may be fair enough Chris so far as it goes. But why the sharp difference between the two periods? What are the underlying drivers for that change? I mean that’s just four attacks in twenty years. Why the upsurge?
It has since occured to me that there may be a demographic answer, perhaps in regard to shifting territories. But without more comprehensive information, I guess we are left with intelligent guesswork.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 09:39 PMI can say that the country is much more obsessed with territory than it was in 1987. I think the figures you have quoted are true, and I doubt that they give the full picture. I’m sure demographics is the bottom line here. Across Northern Ireland and in Belfast, the balance of population is changing. Protestant areas are in population decline which is leading to more and more marches going through disputed areas. Also, Loyalists are pissing on lamposts in the most extraordinary way. It’s hard for people who live in NI to appreciate, but when I left, it really was nowhere near as bad as it is now, and I’m sure it’s down to insecurity based on a steady retreat from various areas across the north.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 10:02 PMIt wasn’t so long ago Nationalists wouldn’t put Irish as their nationality on application forms as they knew it would ensure a swift trip to the rejection pile. The Unionist community have no idea how Nationalists were terrified of drawing attention to themselves for fear of sanction, official or otherwise, yet they continually bleat about erosion of confdence. I mean, are they having a laugh. For years our identity was suppressed (by ourselves and others). There has been a sharp upturn in Nationalist confidence in the last 20 years (witness the increase in Irish passports which used to draw a particularly long stare in local airports). The result of this has been long overdue physical manifestation of opposition to the OO.
No doubt Drew longs for a return to the good old days when the Loyal orders could march down the Ormeau Road and gloat over loyalist massacres without fear of censure.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 10:12 PMPeel away the rhetoric stick with the numbers.
Have irish national separatists been winding up the ulster natives?
Burning down a vacant orange hall will not carry a heavy criminal tariff. However it might ensure the orangies clutch for their historic baggage, as Hain blows for the political train to leave the station.
Unionists going nowhere fast, as per the Provo plan.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 10:16 PMChris, Adams admitted in his address to supporters in Athboy that the anti-OO campaign didn’t just happen. The Irish government, in the form of Dick Spring, got sucked, wittingly or unwittingly, into the process. It’s not clear from Adams words who dreamt up the campaign but the Irish government seems to have learnt its lesson and backed off from subsequent actions such as the one in Cluan Place. The OO blundered unthinkingly into the trap that was set for it. IMO it was targeted because it represented an expression of unionism and what better time to lay siege than during its 200th anniversary.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 10:22 PMWhy the upsurge?
Good point . The result of changing demographics in some areas coupled with a larger younger Irish Nationalist population who are a good deal less inclined to tolerate the 3,000 Orange parades that take place every summer across NI than their parents were, particularly those parades that cross or impinge on ‘nationalist’ areas. Given the long acrimonious history of Orange Order parades through Nationalist areas and the inability of the OO to ‘negotiate’ with representatives of nationalist residents it’s probably no surprise that OO halls have become targets.
The failure of the NI political parties to reach an agreement on power sharing is probably also a factor as is no doubt the ‘hoodlum’ element . It would not surprise me if ‘undermining the confidence of the Unionist community ‘ is also a factor .
As to how to stop it ?
Bring back interment ?
It’s obvious that the political differences between both groups in NI are irreconcilable . The idea of power sharing is a nonsense when one half of the Government is determined to end the existence of the State and the other half wishes to maintain it . The whole Assembly solution makes a mockery of democracy in that there can be no proper opposition .
CJ Haughey was right when he said that NI is a failed political entity . It’s time for the 6 county State to be consigned to history and for Irish Nationalists and Republicans to accept that it makes better political and economic sense for the Irish Republic to aspire to a 30 County Republic and leave the British Unionists of NI to a 2 county size State in the eastern coastal area .
A 32 county UI will no more work than the 6 county NI State did ! The latter contains too many people who look forward to the States non survival and a 32 county UI would include too many alienated British Unionists . Anyway the Irish Republic will find it more productive and easier to focus on assimilating the 400,000 mainly eastern european , chinese, and british immigrants than dealing with the slave mentalities of Paisley and his ilk .
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 10:24 PMBriso,
Also, Loyalists are pissing on lamposts in the most extraordinary way.
I’m really not sure what you’re getting at with this.
...but when I left, it really was nowhere near as bad as it is now, and I’m sure it’s down to insecurity based on a steady retreat from various areas across the north.
When did you leave? I had friends telling me that community relations got worse almost as soon as the ceasefires kicked in. Yet in actual fact there was no Greysteele or Shankill bombing, or Loughinisland. On the face of it things must have been getting better.
So these figures confirm there was something in yours/their perception. And despite the much lauded peace process Orange Halls are still being attacked as lately as last week in Maghera.
As aquifer suggests it’s low level and low risk but as many Orange Halls operate a multi functional role as community centres, it would be a perfect target for anyone seeking to undermine confidence within marginal Protestant communities.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 10:27 PMThe geographical locations of the attacks would be an interesting graph to plot over time, Mick.
More recently I’ve noticed, in an off-line way, attacks in what would be consider well integrated communities.
There was one recently which is particularly intriguing.. at Killygullib
I’ll try to track down the relevant reports but, in local papers [the Mid Ulster Mail and the Mid Ulster Observer, as I recall], a SF councillor was contradicting the reports.. claiming that the police returned to the scene with loyalists and attacked nationalist youths.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 10:37 PM‘It’s hard for people who live in NI to appreciate, but when I left, it really was nowhere near as bad as it is now, and I’m sure it’s down to insecurity based on a steady retreat from various areas across the north. ‘
It’s part of the Repartition process that’s been going on for 20 years whioch itself has been exacerbated by the fast growing and younger Irish population . At some point the DUP will take out their ‘repartition ‘ card and call a halt to Irish encroachment on British Unionist areas . Hains new Seven Super Councils will help provide a ‘legal’ recognition of the de facto Repartition which is on it’s way.
And the sooner the better IMO- The NI comic opera nonsense has gone on for long enough ! Time to get real .
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 10:38 PMEasy fellas. While not a prominent supporter of the OO I think that burning down orange halls will damage long term republican aims (and I do not think that the OO is not a particular boon to political Unionism either).
The question is how do you persuade young nationalists that fire bombing Orange halls is wrong?
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 10:42 PM‘it would be a perfect target for anyone seeking to undermine confidence within marginal Protestant communities. ‘
Despicable.
It’s just another sick manifestation of the inherent sectarianism which underpins NI’s existence . Northern Ireland as a 6 county State is trapped between two worlds , one dead and the other powerless to be born .
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 10:55 PMShay,
stop circulating that it undermines the confidence of a marginalised community.
On a more serious note; for over three decades riots and destruction have been a daily occurrence. And I have seen it myself: A father telling his teenage son to stop throwing stones. The answer was short. You did the same.
Having still a limbo here and a limbo there doesn’t make it easier on any parent. But as pointed out before, two opposing wishes can not be followed up at the same time. Something has to give. But what?Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 11:02 PM‘The question is how do you persuade young nationalists that fire bombing Orange halls is wrong? ‘
Well according to Paisley -Irish Nationalists (a.k.a) Catholics are going to hell anyway so fire bombing Orange Halls is obviously a more enjoyable way to get there for some .
Seriously ? Bring back the cat o nine tails and 72 hours in a public pillory on the village green might work.
Whatever we may think of the OO itself it is true that these Orange Halls are also used for band practice for many young Protestants and for other community activities . As such the best way for Nationalists to stop this kind of vandalism is to help local protestants rebuild and or repair their local halls and to let the vandals know that a mandatory 10 year prison sentence will be imposed for destructive sectarian activities of this ilk.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 11:10 PMI said :Also, Loyalists are pissing on lamposts in the most extraordinary way.
Mick said: I’m really not sure what you’re getting at with this.
I meant marking territory, nothing literal! The new housing estates in Drumahoe and Newbuildings were good examples. Long long before the houses were ready, the estates were absolutely festooned with UVF and union flags. I’d never seen anything quite like that before. It was saying, “Taigs out!” in such a strident way I felt there was an element of panic there.
Your other points suggest (without quite saying ;-) ) there might be an actual low-level campaign to scare Protestants out of certain areas. Pete’s idea of correlating the locations of the attacks with the times and the demographic stresspoints is a good idea to show up something like that. There is another possiblity though, linked to Shay Begorrah’s point: “...how do you persuade young nationalists that fire bombing Orange halls is wrong?” Perhaps the same forces are at work as those which cause Derry teenagers to call an ambulance and fire crew out and then attack them. There are no orange halls around…
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 11:11 PMBetty Boo said “stop circulating that it undermines the confidence of a marginalised community. “
Understood Betty.
Kids, setting light to Orange halls is the only way to a satisfactory accomodation with Unionism, by speaking the only language they really understand - Bonfires.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 11:17 PMI think Mick’s right with the demographic thing. Although there is also the issue of the anti-OO campaign. The state of the Orange hall on the Whitewell Road over the last say 10 years demonstrates the effects of this campaign. The attacks got so bad they gave up repainting it and cutting the grass, and there are massive heavy bars on the front door.
In fairness, though, part of this I think was a response to the new assertiveness and brutality of the loyalist terrorist groups from the end of the 1980s, and in particular the targeting of GAA members and clubs. This is not an attempt to excuse it, but it might help explain it.
The end of terrorism and the consequent fall in police and army presence freed up energies and makes it easier to indulge in this type of behaviour.
I think also that a new wave of younger nationalists that are the equivalent of English soccer hooligans has also emerged. They insist they have rights, but have little respect for anybody else’s. Hence the trouble in the Holylands, and attacks on GAA referees etc. In my humble opinion.
Such behaviour has also been encouraged with the shift in focus from Brits Out to unionism as the main enemy.
Of course, it could just be we’re getting more sectarian, as the number of people who remember pre-69 falls, and entire generations grow up locked in religious apartheid. But keep those separate schools everybody.
Posted by on Jun 19, 2006 @ 11:25 PMBriso,
What are you on about? I don’t ever remember seeing a UVF flag in Newbuildings, ever? And what is wrong with flying union flags anyway? Plus they used to always fly the Republic of Ireland flag twice a year in the village as well if my memory serves me right.
skinbop
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:38 AM“So is it a meaningless coincidence? Does it relate to reactionary factors, like changes in the type of Loyalist violence? British countermeasures? Or is it simply part of a ‘war by other means’ designed to undermine confidence in the Unionist community?”
It’s obviously the work of securocrats trying to blacken the good name of Irish republicanism.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 12:53 AMGaribaldy
Think you have it about right, but it would be a mistake to understate such acts (by either side) as they are evidence of pure hatred.
Strident, dominant and intolerant Unionism is slowly being replaced by equally strident and intolerant Nationalism. Not many lessons seem to have been learnt. You look at Israel and think given their history surely Jews would know better, but no the wrong lessons are carried forward. Same attitude applies here in NI, security through might and numbers rather than cooperation.
Some try to eradicate all evidence of the other community if they can. They despise their very existence. You start on the most disliked the Orange Order or perhaps the offices of politicians and graduate to churches and schools. How long does it take before it becomes houses and businesses. Indeed in some areas we reached that stage long ago. Look at the housing around those euphemistically termed peace walls.
I can see little real desire or evidence of either community being willing to compromise, or accommodate, or acquire an appreciation of the fears and concerns of the other. Cocooned in isolation in their ghettoes frankly I doubt if most give a dam. They all rant about their rights, their needs, their tradition and how they are inconvenienced by themuns. Often I think it would suit everyone here if one side or the other simple disappeared of the face of the earth. That would be just so convenient. Even the political system that was set up institutionalised division, our housing is separate, our schools perpetuate division as do many of our sports. Just what common ground is there? Worse than that what desire is there to create common ground?
In many ways we are living in a fool’s paradise. The portents for stability aren’t good; situations akin to this can flash over very quickly.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 07:02 AM>Briso,
>What are you on about? I don’t ever remember
>seeing a UVF flag in Newbuildings, ever? And
>what is wrong with flying union flags anyway?
>Plus they used to always fly the Republic of
>Ireland flag twice a year in the village as well
>if my memory serves me right.>skinbop
I didn’t actually say there was anything wrong with it skinbop. I was just commenting on my opinion that the way it is being done has changed significantly over the last number of years.
As for the UVF flag, I could be wrong. If so, I apologise. The flag I saw is sort of orange and purple. There were loads of them. I thought it was (perhaps the old) UVF flag? If not, mea culpa.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 07:10 AMDec,
Just seen this:
“There has been a sharp upturn in Nationalist confidence in the last 20 years.”
Whilst I would agree with that, I am not sure what that wider confidence has to do with the rise targeting Orange Halls. A genuinely confident community would not be targeting the opposite community in such a venal manner surely?
This ‘war by other means’ has continued well into the Peace Process™ with very little comment in the wider media. We’ll try to dig a little deeper into this and try to get a handle on some of the detail here.
If any of our readers have had experience of the sharp end this ‘campaign’, or can point us in the direction of figures that can help us get to the bottom of where and when these attacks are occuring, then let us know here, or drop me an email!
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 07:18 AMI dunno about 1989 but from my hazy re-collection of the early nineties the sight of an Orangeman (could have been Apprentice Boy) holding up 5 fingers while marching past Sean Grahams on the Ormeau Road, scene of a recent UVF/UFF massacre seemed to kick something off.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 07:42 AMI am not sure what that wider confidence has to do with the rise targeting Orange Halls. A genuinely confident community would not be targeting the opposite community in such a venal manner surely?
Of course not but there are always those on the fringes of any society/community who take genuine concern and opposition (to OO marches through Nationalist areas - which always was going to be a byproduct of rising Nationalist confidence) to extremes - ie torching Orange Halls. However, I don’t think you can discuss the arson attack on OO lodges in isolation from other related factors: for example, attacks on GAA halls and members over the same period.
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 07:51 AMMick
A genuinely confident community would not be targeting the opposite community in such a venal manner surely?
The problem is that neither side is confident. Potentially that makes the situation exceedingly dangerous. Does any of the rhetoric or political manoeuvring suggest confidence to you?
Posted by on Jun 20, 2006 @ 08:09 AM
