Monday, November 02, 2009
A proud Republican can wear the poppy…
In the first of what I hope will become a series, John McGuirk argues that there is no conflict in interest in an Irish Republican wearing a poppy in remembrance of those who died in past wars… For him it is about standing up for what you believe in, not against what you don’t believe in: specifically, the universal freedom of humanity that saw the liberation of the death camps of Bergin Belsen and other places…
By John McGuirk
Over the course of a weekend filled with strange yet predictable happenings, including an alleged visit to Knock by the mother of God herself and Liverpool’s 3-1 defeat at Fulham, of all places, one incident stands out as particularly easy to foresee, but impossible to divorce from controversy. In a decision which led to a full nineteen pages of discussion inside four hours over on one internet forum, John and Edward allowed silk poppy motifs to be sown into their clothes for their appearance on the X Factor.
You can read the discussions on various fora yourself, if you want to sample the criticism the lads received for their decision (strangely their singing is largely unremarked upon in most parts), but you can probably guess the tenor of much of it without bothering.
Traitors. West Brits. Pandering to Unionism. They probably once sneakily laughed at an Ally McCoist gag on A Question of Sport. And so on. The usual insults doled out to anybody seen as too pally with the hated, and ergo intrinsically evil, British.
I’m a Republican. I believe in a 32 County Irish Sovereign Republic. I want the tricolour to fly over Stormont, one day, with broad consent. And I’m proud to wear the poppy, like John and Edward. For far too long Irish patriots have cast our patriotism in terms of what we are against – Unionists, Britain, the Loyal orders, the blue side of Glasgow and so on, instead of what we are for.
I prefer to define my republicanism in terms of what I support. I’m for liberty, for freedom from the need to fear my Government. I’m for basic, decent equality between people regardless of creed or country or colour. I’m for helping those in need of help. Those values are universal, and I’m proud that they have been adopted by a modern, outward looking Irish Republic.
But there’s an important point to me about those values. They are ideas, and rights, that have been paid for dearly with other men’s blood.
Others who defend Irish poppy wearers point out that some of the blood spilt in their defence was Irish – and it was – but that’s not the point. I’m sick of having to justify my poppy with the argument that it’s ok to wear it because “Irish men died as well”. They did, and I honour them, but I would wear it anyway even if they did not.
I wear the poppy because the battle against Nazism was a battle fought on behalf of humanity, and not just on behalf of Britain. I wear it because I’m glad men of all colours and creeds gave their lives to liberate Belsen, and because I’m happy that Europe is free and democratic for the most part. It could have been so different of those men and women had just decided to sit at home.
Some values are universal. If my poppy shows that I stand with those people, and honour their sacrifice, then I don’t care whether it supports the Royal British Legion financially or not, nor whether it is worn by the Queen, or members of the SAS. They wear it out of loyalty to country. I wear it out of respect for a generation who laid down their lives so that my life is free.
Does the poppy commemorate dead Black and Tans as well? Maybe it does. Does it commemorate soldiers lost in action in the six counties? Perhaps. If it were just about those operations, you could count me out, but it’s about much more than that.
Freedom isn’t free. Britain has made many mistakes, but on the two biggest calls of the last hundred years, she got it right. The blood she offered in defence of liberty deserves to be remembered by liberty’s advocates.
John McGuirk blogs at http://www.mcguirk.eu
Mick Fealty @ 02:45 PM
He sounds far too reasonable, and lacking in knee jerk anti-Brit bigotry, to be a Republican?
But admirable sentiments.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 04:19 PMSeveral points.
(1) The White poppy remembers the victim of war without the money going to militarists. It’s nearly as old as the red poppy, and has been worn by people of progressive politics for generations
(2) Has this guy never seen Team America: World Police? We all know freedom isn’t free. It costs a buck o’five.
BTW Mick, I hope in this series you are having someone from the left as opposed to just nationalists and unionists.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 04:22 PMYou offerin’ Gari? If so, be my guest!!
Also it would be good to have bona fide unionist point of view… pro or anti…
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 04:30 PMThe money for the red poppy doesnt go to militarists it does to ex-service men and women or their dependents.
The white poppy money goes to funding pacifist propaganda and I think the symbolism is pacifist as opposed to remembrance.
Plenty of progressives in this country wear the red one.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 04:31 PMRed poppy came into existance to help WW1 veterans, many who couldn’t work due to missing limbs or Post-tramatic stress disorder. There was no European legislation against disability discrimination or compulsary wheelchair ramps and lifts in those days!
Loyalists may have perverted the red poppy in the past, just like they perverted the Red Hand - yet I still see the Red Hand in on the shirts Ulster Gaelic teams.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 04:54 PM“I’m glad men of all colours and creeds gave their lives to liberate Belsen”
Huge chunk of revisionism going on here, concentration camps existed since 1933 and the West didn’t care too much about them.
Time Magazine still had him on the cover and the West was still doing business.
The full horror was only realised circa 1943,
The BBC has a good article on the etiquette
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8333733.stmBut all in all its just more of the same arguement, people against wearing a poppy cite incidents that are shameful and the pro camp cite incidents of bravery.
The problem is the poppy covers the good and the bad, not to wear one forgets the brave and worthy and wearing one honours the bastards.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 04:58 PMPart of the reason for the bigotry over the poppy seems to have been that in early 20s Repubicans began to detest hearing the playing and singing of “God Save the King” at remembrance day ceremonies because it affronted their memory of 1916. Then there was the outrage at Phoenix Park in 1925 mirrored 62 years later in Enniskillen.
In Northern Ireland, the oppression of Catholics seems to have aggravated anti-poppy feeling. Some Protestants have used Catholic feeling against the poppy to feed their own sectarian bigotry.
Somewhere in all of this history, the fact that many of their kinsmen died in the great war has been lost to many Catholics.
Enniskillen, seems to have been the low point of Catholic antagonism towards the Poppy in NI. At that point, a victim’s father, Gordon Wilson, a man of great piety touched the hearts and minds of many Catholics.
Since then there seems to have been a gradual de-contamination of remembrance day and the Poppy in the eyes of Catholics - although it is still rare to see a Catholic wearing a poppy in NI.
John McGirk’s articles seem to have given this trend a huge push towards the finishing line. Notwithstanding my difference political opinion, I very much welcome the view of Johm McGirk.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 05:23 PMI’ve no problem with Jedward or anyone else wearing a poppy.
I have a major one with BBC presenters being instructed to wear them.
BBC NI should rescind this instruction forthwith, or hand over half of their budget to Nationalists so we can have our Irish values service.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 06:07 PMJust a point of clarification - does the poppy represent those combatants who fought against British imperialism in Ireland and in Africa and Asia?
If so, then Nationalists should be prepared to wear it even if it inlcudes many unsavoury people from the British military - otherwise, clearly we need a more inclusive emblem.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 06:12 PMI wrote this on a previous thread:
“It wasn’t always thus, at least in some nationalist areas. I grew up in Strabane, a mainly Catholic town. There were 20 houses in our street with 3 protestant and 17 Catholic families.
We all wore poppies and all went to the Remembrance Service. Most of the veterans were Catholic.
The only problem with the poppy, then as now, was that you always lost it within a few hours of pinning it on.”In reply to a comment above, here is some of what the Canadian Legion does with the money:
. Provide assistance to needy ex-service members and their families.
. Purchasing medical equipment and appliances for community health facilities.
. Paying for medical research and training.
. Building affordable housing for veterans and senior citizens.
. Paying for bursaries for needy students.
. Providing support services to senior citizens, meals-on-wheels, drop-in centres etc.I and my family have benefitted from many of these services.
Don’t begrudge a few pounds or dollars.Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 06:15 PMJoe
You are quite right for Canada, I too have watched many Anzac parades in Australia, my eldest cousin wearing his Da’s and our Granda’s medals. i have stood many, many times for the ‘going down of the sun…etc’ in our local Returned services league. If only we could differentiate the actions of the British army in Ireland, even other imperialist money grabbing/punishing the natives type wars from the sacrifices of the world wars. Only we can’t, and until we do…........
I read John McGuirk’s piece with an open mind, and kept waiting for the redeeming piece of information that would sway me to the poppy cause. Sadly all we got was belsen and fighting nazism. Well I’d be as well remembering heroes of the Soviet Union individually because they defeated Nazism and liberated Aushwitz and the majority of camps.
Guess I’ll just go on respecting the memory of the men who died for us without lending my support to the British services as a whole.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 06:39 PMjoeCanuck,
re. “Don’t begrudge a few pounds or dollars.”
It is undoubtedly a very worthwhile organisation and if it was a very inclusive one (which perhaps it is - see question above) then it would enjoy support from across the community in Norn Iron.
Hopefully we will get some clarity here on this thread on just how inclusive it is?
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 06:39 PMposted by Kathy C
The rememberence of the war dead who fought for the british crown and what it represents.
Now we don’t know if any of the service men who shot and killed innocent civilians in Derry on Bloody Sunday died during their active duty because the british gov’t won’t give their names. If they did die…then wearing the poppy would be a way to honor those men who shot and murdered Irish Catholic civilians.
WE also don’t want to forget the british military active duty men who burnt the towns of Mallow and Fernoy. Maybe some of them died during their raids in Ireland…but again we don’t know their names.
I do not think it is appropriate for a Irish Republican to wear a poppy.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 06:49 PMPrionsa Eoghann,
are you suggesting the poppy does not commemorate those killed, including civilians, in various (perhaps selected) conflicts - I always presumed it did?
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 06:50 PMsammy
afaik it represents the British ‘fallen’ of all wars. Is it facetious to wonder what represents the ‘fallen’ of Scotland and England pre-1707, especially when they quite often fell at each others feet? Probably.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 07:03 PMI think that the time is long overdue when the British government, British Legion and Royal family publicly stated that they abhor the sectarian politicizing of the poppy in the North of Ireland by Unionist/Loyalist bigots. This would go a long way to address the annoyance and unease of many Catholics whose family members served and fought in wars yet who annually observe cowardly paramilitaries and politicians taking ownership of remembrance services. Most of these yellow bellies would run a mile in a real war if forced to take up arms and fight an enemy face to face instead of shooting him in the back. This silence from the various authorities is the main obstacle to the acceptance of the poppy for the real reasons.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 07:17 PMThis is possibly the silliest and most self indulgent blog I have ever read on Slugger, like it or not the red poppy glorifies war in all its putridity. The fact that after WW1, (probably the most unnecessary and stupid war in history) the victims had to rely on charity, just about sums up why one should not ware a red poppy, it sends out all the wrong messages about warfare and those like Tony Blair who send young people to war on a wicked lie.
If you doubt me I suggest you go along to a monument on Nov 11 and you will see the heirs of those who glorified war troop out in all their hypocrisy. They will prattle on about lads dying for the rest of us in places like Afghanistan, when in reality is is absolute tosh, as these young squadies are having there’re their lives stolen by the greedy no good human garbage who sent them there.
The important thing about war is to remember the living, those who survive, that is what the dead would want. The best thing we could do is stick the charity collecting tins down the toilet where they belong and demand of our politicians that they fund the widows and orphans they have created, plus give adequate medical care for those they have plated a major role in wounding.
For christ sake, why do you guys think the politicians and the rich and powerful love charity so much, I will tell you it takes the responsibility off their own shoulders for the hardships they have inflicted on others..
I will be blunt anyone who attends any of these parades is glorifying war, the military life and encouraging todays politicians to steal other peoples sons and daughters lives. Let the families remember their dead, the living need to look to the future.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 07:22 PMPS Oh, and a proud republican cannot wear a poppy.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 07:23 PM“I read John McGuirk’s piece with an open mind, and kept waiting for the redeeming piece of information that would sway me to the poppy cause. Sadly all we got was belsen and fighting nazism. Well I’d be as well remembering heroes of the Soviet Union individually because they defeated Nazism and liberated Aushwitz and the majority of camps.” - Prionsa Eoghann
That’s the fatal flaw, and why his ‘argument’ amounts to no more than an idiosyncratic statement. If you select wars that you agree with and praise a state’s army on that basis, then it is equally valid to select wars that you disagree with and damn a state’s army on that basis. He has led himself to a self-contradiction, i.e. if he disagrees with the war in Iraq or the war in pre-independence Ireland (or the shabby sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland), then he expresses agreement with them by wearing a symbol that it not as idiosyncratic as his selective approval.Armies exist to defend a nation’ claim to self-determination by defending the sovereign territorial entity that allows the nation to freely exercise its claim (i.e. the state). In defending the British army, he is defending the militant maintenance of the claim to self-determination by the nation that vetoes his nation’s claim to self-determination. That is not a nationalist position.
We all approve of Churchill’s noble decision to defend the freedom of Europe from fascism (shame that that freedom has been subsequently lost by stealth to an anti-democratic regime, however), but that should not be obfuscated with the British army for obvious pro-British state propaganda purposes. Just because the so-called nationalists in NI have endorsed the legitimacy of the British state’s sovereignty over NI is no reason why the rest of us should be persuaded to celebrate that state’s armed forces.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 07:25 PMMick Hall has made some hard hitting and truthful ponits.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 07:44 PMDoes the Easter lilly represent an equal glorification of war?
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 08:27 PMMcGuirk “I wear the poppy because the battle against Nazism was a battle fought on behalf of humanity, and not just on behalf of Britain. I wear it because I’m glad men of all colours and creeds gave their lives to liberate Belsen, and because I’m happy that Europe is free and democratic for the most part. “
If you wear it for those reasons then I have my opposing reasons. The poppy came in after WW1 after the british soldiers had been financially abandoned by their govt (see Mick Hall above). WW1 was a senseless slaughter between the armies of arguing cousins and should be quietly remembered as a wasteful slaughter. The govts, the kaiser’s family and the Windsors should be excluded from everything connected to Nov 11th memorials.McGuirk remembers WW2 with his poppy…...... sorry thats selective memory. He might first remember something closer to home and the agressor and “acknowledge that there is a small nation that stood alone not for one year or two, but for several hundred years against aggression; that endured spoliation’s, famines, massacres in endless succession; that was clubbed many times into insensibility, but that each time on returning consciousness took up the fight anew; a small nation that could never be got to accept defeat and has never surrendered her soul?”
Proof as if proof be needed that if you tell a lie frequently enough then it’ll be acknowledged as true. Republican are now wearing poppies….. I suppose if everyone on Sky Sport wears one then everyone else should…. sheep!!!
If Unionists are so partial to military commemorations then why do they complain against Republican commemorations like the recent one in Galbally?
In light of the GFA equality any TV personality obliged to wear a poppy should be obliged to wear an Easter Lily in April. Or do the broadcasting companies have a heirarchy? Does anyone have a link to that Derry young fella on the Britan’s Got Talent show whose family were asked not to wear their GAA shirts?
If McGuirk is selective in his reasons for wearing of the poppy then many IRA supporters can equally be as selective in their support for the republican campaign and ignore La Mon, Enniskillen & Omagh.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 08:31 PMI wear the poppy with pride to remember members of my family who gave their lives in WW2. My grandfather and an uncle paid the ultimate sacrifice. End of story. In Newtownards, prods and catholics wear the poppy and catholics attend the rememberance service at the war memorial. I personally only wear mine on rememberance Sunday.
I don’t believe anyone should be forced to wear one if they don’t want too. The same goes with wearing the shamrock on Patricks day. It’s a free country….thanks to the brave men and women who fought the nazis and their allies.
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 08:41 PMMick Hall has made some hard hitting and truthful ponits (sic).
Cut the Bull, Mickhall said “..anyone who attends any of these parades is glorifying war..”
I refute that; it’s simply not true in my case and, I suspect, the case for the majority who remember the dead and injured, of all nations who have suffered.Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 08:42 PMand any money donated these days thro purchasing a poppy wouldn’t go to some poor WW1 Tommy from the trenches or soldier who fought against Der Furher as most of them have passed on.
Nowadays your money’s for the heros from the Mau Mau campaign (ear collectors) and those who stood firm against the Paddys in Castlereagh Interrogation Centre. That’d also be age group for those running the Glenanne Gang.
So memorials and Last Post for WW1 are one thing but nowadays the aging British soldier’s experience, for which poppy purchasers are suporting, relate to the the early 70’s in NI. Yeah they were honourable and should be honoured by nationalists !?!?
McGuirk go join Tom Kelly OBE in Uncle Tom’s cabin
Posted by on Nov 02, 2009 @ 09:00 PM