Tuesday, December 11, 2007
“A New Year proposal that will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse”
The Irish Independent reports that “advanced discussions about the introduction of an All Ireland soccer league” have taken place between top eircom League and Irish League sides and with the backing of “significant third party” encouragement.
While the report cites no sources and accordingly has to be taken with a large pinch of salt, it appears the intention is to draft a New Year proposal that “will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse”.
Daniel McDonnell believes that while the prospect of an All Ireland league has until now been viewed as “an impossible dream” due to political and logistical hurdles, the introduction of the Setanta Sports Cup has introduced new momentum.
Early plans envisaged that the new All Ireland League would comprise twelve teams with regional leagues underneath while both the FAI Cup and IFA Cup would remain in situ thus retaining a degree of historical tradition.
Those ideas are not set in stone, though, with the only firm issue of agreement being that any club wishing to be in the top league should be a full time professional outfit with suitable facilities.
Those clubs in the North that have participated in secret talks naturally include big guns like Linfield and Glentoran but there are also surprise packages such as Newry City who have ambitious plans about their future which they also expect to announce early next year.
Naturally, the clubs need to convince the FAI and the IFA of the merits of such a league or at least force them to sit up and take notice.
The origins of the initiative came from meetings between the six leading eircom League full time clubs—Cork City, Drogheda United, Derry City, St Patrick’s Athletic, Bohemians and Galway United.
The logistical problems include the distribution of European places as well as the strong possibility that FIFA would demand that if the Irish leagues are united then the international team should go the same way.
Speaking of FIFA, the organisation’s Executive Committtee is scheduled to give its verdict on the eligibility row regarding footballers born in Northern Ireland declaring for the Irish Republic this Saturday in Tokyo.
George @ 12:03 PM
The division on this issue comes down to those who want to make Northern Ireland institutions work and remain inclusive and those who wish to advance “separate but equal”.
No, for Nationalists it’s to do with freedom of choice (FAI or the IFA). For Unionists, it’s about control (IFA only*).
Interestingly, I noted one Unionist speaker admitted yesterday that if a player wasn’t good enough for Northern Ireland, it was perfectly fine for them to play for another ‘country’. So, no national territory ideological-style objections there.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 12:30 PMIain
what’s to stop linfield just joining the FAI league if the money was right.
The IFA and UEFA.
Haven’t Derry City already done so!
With special dispensation from UEFA.
The IFA may regret allowing Derry to do that as it dilutes the notion that NI is exclusively the territory of the IFA
True. Derry should be brought back into the fold.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 12:33 PM“It most certainly isn’t meaningless. It allows the IFA to proceed knowing that they have the majority backing of the NI Assembly despite the cross-community mechanism being inappropriately invoked.”
It tells them that we are divided on this issue exactly across sectarian lines ie nothing new.
“If the motion “winds up the taigs” then that is because nationalists are advocating apartheid on this issue, nothing to do with bad faith by unionists. The division on this issue comes down to those who want to make Northern Ireland institutions work and remain inclusive and those who wish to advance “separate but equal”.”
No Nationalist politician then wants to make NI work. You are a bit fucked in that goal then, no?
I am an Irish citizen Chekov. The problem is that Unionists don’t respect that and want to “wind up the taigs”. the difference is actually between those who respect identity and citizenship and those who want to dictate it.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 12:34 PMThe motion was entirely meaningless and a waste of time. It’s not as if the IFA were unaware that they would have the (slight) majority backing of the assembly.
However it did, once again, expose certain unionist’s singular failure to understand (or accept) that a sizeable proportion of the people in NI do not have any allegiance to NI, do not accept that their allegiance to the ROI is something to be ashamed about, do not class themselves as citizens of NI and when they exercise their personal choice, are not being coerced into doing so.
Quote of the day must go to Miss McIlveen: “Not only are we one of four football associations in one country, but a foreign country had a claim on our territory, and now willingly hands out its passports to our citizens to justify stealing our players”.
Again, I ask, what part of “I’m Irish” can they not accept?
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 12:36 PMWe have been over this 100 times. Choice is a nonsense as regards international football. The fact is that the IFA have a majority of democratically elected representatives onside on this issue and that can only strengthen their resolve. Any decision FIFA make along the lines of their proposal will be open to legal challenge on grounds of inconsistent application of their rules.
The broader issue is nothing to do with disrespect for identity. It is insisting that nationalists abide by the notion of consent and don’t attempt to conflate acceptance of their identity and aspirations with complete ignorance of the existance of Northern Ireland.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 12:54 PMChoice is a nonsense as regards international football.
NOT where is is dual-eligibilty.
Any decision FIFA make along the lines of their proposal will be open to legal challenge on grounds of inconsistent application of their rules.
Dream on. They’re being entirely consistent.
It is insisting that nationalists abide by the notion of consent and don’t attempt to conflate acceptance of their identity and aspirations with complete ignorance of the existance of Northern Ireland.
Nothing about control, eh? Are we still allowed to support the Republic? That would appear to contravene all these sub-clauses to the GFA you dreamed up last night.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 01:07 PMThe IFA may regret allowing Derry to do that as it dilutes the notion that NI is exclusively the territory of the IFA
I don’t think the IFA was in a position to allow anything, considering that they rejected Derry City’s application for re-admission to the Irish League thirteen times in a row. Consequently, I doubt there’s much appetite amongst the supporters for a return either. All that travelling to Coleraine to play their home games, for one thing…
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 01:18 PM“NOT where is is dual-eligibilty.”
If the rules are applied consistently there will not be dual-eligibility.
“Dream on. They’re being entirely consistent.”
Not to this point. Even the advocates of dual-eligibility are framing their argument as a “special case”. FIFA will need to decide whether they are prepared to stand by their decision as a general precedent or face a legal challenge. If they prefer the former option they are sowing the seeds of mayhem in international football.
“Are we still allowed to support the Republic?”
You can support Kazakhstan if you wish, but unless you have a parent / grandparent or were born there I’d be strongly opposed to you being eligible to play for them. The less unpalatable types from either side of the divide we attract the happier I am.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 01:23 PMIf the rules were applied consistantly there would be no n.i/Scotland/Wales or England team, but a single team representing all four regions.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 01:30 PMChekov
We’ll see what happens Saturday and take it from there. Ad nauseum and all that.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 01:31 PMChekov,
I take the point re travel for amateur sports. I once played Rugby for a Cheshire side in the North West league. Travelling to Cumbria or Workington for a friendly amateur game was a pain. We had the Isle of Man in our league too.
But aren’t we talking about a higher level of professional football (so the players shouldn’t mind) and home and away fixtures in a league.
And even now don’t Derry City fans make these trips all the time?
Let alone all those non-travelling Ulster football fans I see on the Seacat all the time on thier way to Glasgow.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 01:46 PM“And even now don’t Derry City fans make these trips all the time?
Let alone all those non-travelling Ulster football fans I see on the Seacat all the time on thier way to Glasgow. “
Also, realistically, away support isn’t key. Home support is.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 01:56 PMTravel is more of an issue in terms of cost if players are going full-time, rather than inconvenience - just one of a wide range of costs which will spiral exponentially. Although many players will be reluctant to give up jobs which they can maintain part-time to become full-time professionals in any case.
Derry City fans may well travel long distances, but that doesn’t translate to a successful model. Many more long distance and cross-border trips will take place every week. And the product will not be equivalent to the Old Firm or to the Premiership games reguarly attended by many Northern Irish fans. Those fans will continue to travel across the water for their football.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 02:04 PMTalk to rugby people and they will tell you that they rue the day the AIL came into being.
The current 3 division AIL in rugby doesn’t work and it is too expensive for smaller clubs to travel the length of the country.
A more sensible structure would be a single division AIL, provincial leagues and a inter-provincial playoff for promotion and relegation. The trouble is, clubs don’t want to demote themselves into a provincial league that they perceive as lower status and it will reinforce the gap between the top AIL clubs and the rest.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 02:14 PMPacman
Again, I ask, what part of “I’m Irish” can they not accept?
You don’t have to be from the South, or a citizen of the South, to be Irish. Being Irish is not the same as being a Southern citizen. What part of that do you not understand?
Dec
I don’t think the IFA was in a position to allow anything, considering that they rejected Derry City’s application for re-admission to the Irish League thirteen times in a row.
The IFA did not reject Derry City’s application to rejoin the Irish League. That decision was made by the Irish League itself: a self-governing body.
Consequently, I doubt there’s much appetite amongst the supporters for a return either. All that travelling to Coleraine to play their home games, for one thing…
If Derry City rejoined the Irish League they wouldn’t play their home games in Coleraine.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 02:33 PMI am an Irish citizen, Willowfield. My passport and every ethos of my being tells me so.
I have not and never will have any allegiance to the state known as Northern Ireland irrespective of whether I am born, bred and buttered within it’s political contours. Fortunately there are hundreds of thousands like me and of course, there are hundreds of thousands who live in the same space that are unlike me (yourself included, no doubt). So what part don’t you understand?
Two quotes from yesterday from Mr Ross:
“many nationalists in Northern Ireland give their allegiance to a foreign football team”. Ermm, sorry but we don’t - it’s our football team, representative of all of our country;
“Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland who come from the nationalist community may choose to represent the Irish Republic, shunning their own country to play for our geographical neighbours”. And once again, Northern Ireland is not our country.
It’s all quite simple really. Well, except for some, apparently.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 02:43 PMPacman
I am an Irish citizen, Willowfield. My passport and every ethos of my being tells me so.
Please accept my hearty congratulations: I’m delighted for you.
But - as I said above you don’t have to be from the South, or a citizen of the South, to be Irish. And being Irish is not the same as being a Southern citizen. Your own personal citizenship status alters that not one iota. What part of that do you not understand?
I have not and never will have any allegiance to the state known as Northern Ireland irrespective of whether I am born, bred and buttered within it’s political contours.
Wonderful, but it still doesn’t alter the fact that you don’t have to be a Southern citizen to be Irish.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 02:56 PMYour condescension is befitting of your unionism - thanks for proving my point.
I understand perfectly who I am and to whom I owe my allegiance. This is and always has been a matter for myself. Who you are and who you give your allegiance to is entirely a matter for yourself.
Now as soon as the IFA and political (or otherwise) unionists accept this reality, the sooner we can move forward.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 03:06 PMIndeed Willowfield,
Pacman is Irish regardless of his citizenship (though he has Irish citizenship too). Someone born in Dublin is also Irish (and an Irish citizen). Pacman is Irish in the same way as someone born in Dublin (or Galway or Cork). Equally the FAI team is Pacman’s team in the same way that it is for someone from Dublin. It isn’t a ‘Foreign’ team for him. It represents his nation. What part of that don’t you understand?Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 03:08 PM“Who you are and who you give your allegiance to is entirely a matter for yourself”
Wow.
Usually it’s “you’re Irish you imperial lackey...get the chip off yer shoulder...you’re not British!”
Progress.
How about Belfast United just adopts the NI shirt, stuffs every other team in Ireland and represents the All-Irish League every year in Europe?
That’d be worth travelling for.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 03:13 PMOops
Just thought of Ulster Rugby.
Oh dear.
Tread carefully. Them’s me dreams you’re treading on.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 03:16 PM“Usually it’s “you’re Irish you imperial lackey...get the chip off yer shoulder...you’re not British!”
Sorry BU but I don’t try and never have tried to impose my nationality on anyone so it’s hardly progress.
It’s a shame the unionists I quoted can’t afford me the same respect.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 03:23 PMPacman
You haven’t answered my quesstion: what do you not understand about the statement that you don’t have to be a Southern citizen to be Irish?
I understand perfectly who I am and to whom I owe my allegiance. This is and always has been a matter for myself. Who you are and who you give your allegiance to is entirely a matter for yourself.
Instead of making statements of the obvious, would you mind answering the question?
Now as soon as the IFA and political (or otherwise) unionists accept this reality, the sooner we can move forward.
I’m unaware of either the IFA or unionists not accepting this reality.
Now answer the question.
Iain
Pacman is Irish regardless of his citizenship (though he has Irish citizenship too).
I know - but he doesn’t seem to understand that.
Someone born in Dublin is also Irish (and an Irish citizen). Pacman is Irish in the same way as someone born in Dublin (or Galway or Cork). Equally the FAI team is Pacman’s team in the same way that it is for someone from Dublin. It isn’t a ‘Foreign’ team for him. It represents his nation. What part of that don’t you understand?
There is none of that that I don’t understand. Why do you suppose that there is?
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 03:25 PMI understand the question Willowfield - the answer is Yes, I do understand that I (or anyone else) does not have to be a citizen of the South to be Irish. Your point being in relation to the thread?
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 03:32 PMAt last.
So if you understand it, why did you state: “Again, I ask, what part of “I’m Irish” can they not accept?” in response to those arguing for the Southern team not to be able to pick Northern players?
That statement doesn’t make sense if - as you say you do - being Irish is not restricted to being a Southerner.
Posted by on Dec 12, 2007 @ 03:39 PM
