Tuesday, March 04, 2008
“A new campaign for reunification might sound great at an árd fheis, but..”
In the Irish Examiner, Fergus Finlay makes a couple of good points, firstly relating to “The price of peace”
Actually, the best possibility of arriving at Irish unity is if we let it happen by chance. The central dynamic of the peace process was to arrive at a point where those who were at the heart of the problem were transplanted, eventually, into becoming the heart of the solution.
And on the feasibility, or otherwise, of Adams’ “high-powered taskforce” driving forward a “road-map to Irish unity”
IN THE years ahead, a stable and prosperous Northern Ireland could be electing governments with a very clear mandate to work well with the government of the dynamic economy down here. We could well find that both governments, for example, are taking positions in Europe that are at odds with the positions adopted by Westminster. And little by little, the things that unite us could start coming into focus, while the things that divide us fade into distant memory.
But just suppose unity across the island was to come about that way. Do you know what it would be called? It would be called unity by consent — an agreement to run our affairs together in the best interests of all of us.
The political parties of this part of the island signed up to that principle an awful long time ago and Sinn Féin eventually, in their signing of various agreements and their taking of office in the Northern Ireland Executive, signed up to it, too. A bit late, but then, as they say, better late than never.
I’ve no idea whether unity by consent will happen in my lifetime (and like most people, I suspect, I’m not too bothered). But I do know that it’s the only kind of unity that will ever work. A new campaign for reunification might sound great at an árd fheis, but there’s a different game in town. I wonder do Sinn Féin get it?
As Michael Longley said, “peace is the absence of war: the opposite of war is custom, customs, and civilization.”
Pete Baker @ 10:03 AM
“since no one in Britain or Ireland called themselves Celtic before 1700 and the notion that they were so arose from the early 18th century scholar Edward Lhuyd’s coining of the word from his comparative study of Irish, Welsh, Cornish and Breton”
From Pete’s link.
Facts are strange things but the linguistic relationships between the “Celtic” languages are factual and clear. “Celtic” as good a word as any to describe the languages and people.
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 11:57 AM‘I for one do not support independence for Kosovo,’
Given the Serbian attempt to exterminate the Kosovars in the recent Balkan conflict the Kosovars are within their rights to want separation from Serbia . I’m happy that the Irish Government has recognised the Kosovar Republic so quickly. The Kosovars speak Albanian and are predominantly Muslim . They have little in common with Serbs neither speaking their language nor sharing their customs !
‘why should I accept an artificially created homeland for Prods, it is a nonsense.’
I agree the present ‘homeland’ was unfairly carved out but if one were fairly carved out by a neutral international agency what would be wrong with that ?
’ The Scots and Irish share roughly the same genes, and as more genetic info comes out of England the further west you are in England the more ‘Celtic’ your gene pool.’
So what ? We Irish have no desire to unite politcally with Scotland or England or Wales so why should you expect Northern Unionists to be any different as regards uniting with the Republic . They are people too !
‘Culturally there is more that binds than divides.’
Again so what ? there is a common western culture that unites many western countries yet they choose to go their own way politically .
‘It is simply a case of waiting for the Prodiban to die off.’Now thats what I would call a waste of a life . Imagine believing in a political dream that can only be achieved when enough people of the opposing tribe ‘die ’ off ? There’s only one word for that - pathethic
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 01:00 PMHi Dewi,
“Prydain comes from Priteni” - other way round surely….
Not as far as I’m aware.
“I seem to recall the decision was between English and German”
You could be right there…
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 01:18 PMHi Greenflag,
“Given the Serbian attempt to exterminate the Kosovars in the recent Balkan conflict the Kosovars are within their rights to want separation from Serbia”
Some would say that was in response to the KLA abducting and murdering Serbs prior to the Serbian response. I was also talking in a wider context that I think we’ve demonised them all throughout the former Yugoslavia. Remember, the Serbs stood with us against Nazi Germany. Still, we’ve enough problems without trying to get into the intricacies of the Balkans…
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 01:23 PMAsk most nationalists “are you british?” I suspect a rejection as the answer.
Of course because most irish nationalists would see the question as political . Irish nationalists have a less confused identity than say Scots , English or Welsh . The poor sods up North have five or six combinations of national identity titles to choose from , from Ulster to Norn Irish to Ulster Scot to British to Irish to Crutons and many more no doubt :)
‘Whatabout yourself? Do you consider yourself British?’
No I don’t because for me it’s a political question. But I’m aware of and sometimes grateful for some of our english/british heritage . I speak English , read Shakespeare, listen to the BBC and RTE and read both Irish and British newspapers - enjoy British and Irish sports and entertainment etc . On the other hand I’ve no time for monarchy nor the Daily Sun or Mirror or Telegraph .
‘in the same way that I describe myself as Irish doesn’t mean politically.’
You are of course free to describe yourself as whatever you want and whatever you feel comfortable with- regardless of your ‘politics’. Just don’t expect too many others to appreciate the fine distinctions . I don’t . People are mostly not interested for a start and secondly they’d rather watch Manchester Utd v Chelsea on tv!
I’m more interested in practical solutions to the here and now world and the future .All the gumpf about ancient ancestors, languages , origins , dna similarities and differences while of some interest even to me as an amateur historian -it is when all is said and done -irrelevant as to how this island and the neighbouring one is governed in the 21st century much less how they were governed in the middle ages .
We’re all worm food in the end anyway . Just make the best use of your short time on the planet and try not to waste too much of it trying to define yourself :)?Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 01:37 PM““Prydain comes from Priteni” - other way round surely….
Not as far as I’m aware.”
What happened was that these Greek and Roman geographic blokes based Priteni on what we called our island - Prydain.
There you go - I’ll translate when I got a min!
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 01:55 PMHi Greenflag,
“No I don’t because for me it’s a political question.”
But, I specifically said I didn’t mean politically. The point is would/could you describe yourself as British in a non poitical way. Not appreciate the heritage but actually describe yourself as British. For most nationalists I’m guessing no.
“All the gumpf about ancient ancestors, languages , origins , dna similarities and differences while of some interest even to me as an amateur historian -it is when all is said and done -irrelevant as to how this island and the neighbouring one is governed in the 21st century much less how they were governed in the middle ages.”
The thing is loads of nationalists are nationalists based on a belief that the “Irish” are a completely distinct race from the “British” and have been in Ireland from time immemorial. Hence the “colonizer” and “planter” jibes. It appears you are nationalist for other reasons and I think that fair enough - sort of in the vein of Wolfe Tone say. However, for lots more it’s pure misguided sectarianism.
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 02:00 PM‘I think we’ve demonised them all throughout the former Yugoslavia.’
Yugoslavia was an artificial state concocted out of the ruins of the Austro Hungarian and Ottoman Empires . It could only be held together by Imperial or totalitarian Communist rule .
Northern Ireland likewise can only be held together by overall British rule from Westminster.
It could not stand alone i.e independent as a political entity in it’s present format.‘Remember, the Serbs stood with us against Nazi Germany.’
Eaten bread is soon forgotten . In international politics there are no friends only interests .
Remember also that it was an irredentist Serb who sparked World War 1 which left tens of millions of europeans dead after word War 1. When the history of the collapse of european civilisation is written circa 2500 AD the cumulative loss of population in both World Wars in 20th century Europe will be seen as having been a major causative factor .
The Serbs regrettably believed in Slobodan Milosevic’s Greater Serbia . Unfortunately every other nation/ethnic group in the former Yugoslavia did’nt . Even the Montenegrins jumped before the Kosovars .
Dreaming of past glories will no more serve Serbia in the future than dreams of former one party majority rule will serve Unionists in the present Northern Ireland .
‘Still, we’ve enough problems’
I would think so. I have a nigglin feeling that Paisley’s hasty departure may yet prove to be the undoing of the present Assembly .
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 02:02 PMHi Dewi,
No need to translate - there’s an English link down the side. Maybe I should’ve spoofed I’m fluent in Welsh - I have Welsh ancestry afterall…
Anyhow, did you read it? It seems to back what I was saying…
“Priteni is the source of the Welsh language term Prydain, Britain, which has the same source as the Goidelic term Cruithne used to refer to the early Brythonic speaking inhabitants of Ireland and the north of Scotland”
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 02:10 PMHi Congal Claen
English not a translation…..and wrong! IMHO of course…..
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 02:37 PMThe Greek ethnographer Pytheas was the first to use the word “Priteni” - I suspect a translation of a “native” word like “Prydain”.........wish I never started this….
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 02:43 PM‘The thing is loads of nationalists are nationalists based on a belief that the “Irish” are a completely distinct race from the “British” and have been in Ireland from time immemorial.’
In earlier centuries lots of people believed the moon was made of cheese and the sun moved around the earth and the oul chap wearing feathers and poncing up and down throwing bones to foretell the future actually could see the future .Some of us have moved beyond that stage of mental development .
Much of our ‘learned’ history is ‘mythology’. The Irish are not the only people on the planet to have ‘mythological’ origins . British history is replete with Anglo Saxon ‘hero worship ’ yet the DNA people /scientists now tell us that the Anglo Saxons and their descendants represent a minority of the population of England . If the people of Ireland feel comfortable using the term Celtic to describe their ancestry and those of England feel comfortable using the term Anglo Saxon what matter ?
Irish ‘nationalism’ of the early 1800’s was very pragmatic , political power focused and predominantly english speaking . Daniel O’Connell was no fan of the Irish language . Oddly enough it was predominantly many of the Anglo Irish who dug up much of the Celtic romanticism which later came to symbolise and become part of the ‘independence’ struggle .
‘Hence the “colonizer” and “planter” jibes.’These ignorant jibes resonate more in Northern Ireland for obvious local political and historical reasons .Do they make jibes at Gerry Adams for his ‘planter’ name ? How does ultra loyalist Roy Gillespie feel about being a Celt ?and his ancestors being the servants of a bishop ? Open a Dublin telephone directory and you will see many names that are a lot more exotic than so called native irish or native planter :)
‘It appears you are nationalist for other reasons and I think that fair enough ‘For pragmatic economic and political reasons . Nationalism is like arsenic -best taken in small doses. I’m not into national glorification except on a temporary basis at say an international sporting event :)
‘sort of in the vein of Wolfe Tone say.’
Wolfe Tone did’nt like Irish music . He also would’nt have known a Celt from a Sunt . He did see that Ireland was suffering and not developing as it should under British rule . He took Irish ‘nationalism’ a step further and built on the separatist views of earlier anglo irish ‘complainers’ about the condition of Ireland and the powers of England which were inhibiting the growth and development of nascent irish industries from the mid 17th century on.
‘However, for lots more it’s pure misguided sectarianism.’
Of course . Ignorance and sectarianism go together . Like a chicken and egg . BTW is there such a thing as guided sectarianism ? And what if anything would it be good/bad for ?
Guided sectarianism could be said to have led of to the carving out of the Northern Ireland State in 1920. It also led to the Catholic inspired 1937 Irish Constitution.
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 02:55 PMHi Dewi,
Apparently, they were quite meticulous in their record taking. So, I suspect otherwise. Priteni also refers to both main islands.
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 03:03 PMcongal claen
I had to leave the other night and watch my beloved celtic so i am only getting back to you. I believe you misunderstand my stance. You talk in early posts in this thread how ireland will return to the fold eventually. I said this is nonsense.
You quoted me on saying,‘The demonisation of al things english? So do the irish people not folow soccer? From your earlier comment i assume they do, i know i do. Do they not follow rugby? Once again i believe they do. Do the schools teach english? I beieve they do. Do they travel to england? I believe they do. Do they listen to English musicians? I believe they do. ,’ which i said of course.
You left out me saying,‘You have just resorted to rhetoric and failed to address my points about how irish nationalists have embraced the EU project and are a state that is very pro-immigration in terms of the goverment.’
Once again you stick to your anti-outsider stance on irish nationalism which is unjustified. You continue to fail to justify this. You talk rubbish and write your unjustified opioions of irish natioalism and believes this backs up your stance irish nationalists will want to be part of britian in the future. Provide some concrete evidence why you think this outside of your ill informed views of irish nationalism.
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 03:57 PMCONGAL CLAEN
The thing is loads of nationalists are nationalists based on a belief that the “Irish” are a completely distinct race from the “British” and have been in Ireland from time immemorial.
Do you sum up your politics from who you think is racially the same to you? I know for certain I do not. I would probably vote for big ian if i did, we both derive our surnames from scottish places. You sound like something out of Mein Kampf talking like that. Look at practical issues like the rest of us do.
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 04:19 PMCONGAL CLAEN
‘Remember, the Serbs stood with us against Nazi Germany.’
So should have we have overlooked genocide and war crimes? Were they racially inferior?
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 04:22 PMOne eyed hound of valour,
Chapter 5. is right up your street.
http://opus.kobv.de/ubp/volltexte/2007/1568/pdf/celtic_languages_in_contact.pdf
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 04:33 PMPete.
>>Why there is no Celtic section in the National Museum of Ireland.
Posted by Pete Baker on Mar 05, 2008 @ 11:47 PM<<I really don’t know, have you asked?
Greenflag
>>‘Were there any differences in the people of Ireland middle ages? ‘
Yes there were a lot of differences .<<
But no major or minor ethnic, racial or cultural differences!
Congal @ 11:56 AM
One crucial difference. Those ‘Celts’ (a coverall Pete) in England have adopted a Germanic idea of Britishness, a strange mixed up cukoo. Funnily enough the south coast of England has the same percentage ‘Celtic’ gene pool as Scotland, roughly 70% from memory, the south west mainly ‘Celtic’, whilst east Anglia mainly Germanic/Dane. And Agreed on Kosovo, a fucking disgrace, and all to piss of the Russki’s I bet.
Greenflag ((again) sorry I am working my way down)
>>Given the Serbian attempt to exterminate the Kosovars in the recent Balkan conflict the Kosovars are within their rights to want separation from Serbia.<<
The Kosovars are Serbs, I think you might be gatting mixed up with Albanians who have settled there these past hundred or so years.
As for the rest of your whingefest, I thought we were all having a conversation and throwing in our two bob’s worth. That is all I am doing here.
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 07:19 PMPlease forgive my geekness but:
Pretani was made up after islands discovered - our word was probably summat like “Prydain” - greeks and Romands usually hardened consonants - thus our great resistant leaders went from “Caradog and Buddug” (which is how we remember them) to “Caractucus and Boudicea” - I know it’s a bore but there we are.
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 10:40 PMHi pfhl,
“The demonisation of al things english”
You misunderstand what I’m saying there. I meant nationalists in general - not you in particular. As for the race thing I said that I felt Irish nationalists view themselves as different to the British, not me. I you followed the thread you would know that I think the history of these islands is nuch more complicated (and interesting) than that.
“Once again you stick to your anti-outsider stance on irish nationalism which is unjustified. You continue to fail to justify this.”
Anti English doesn’t mean anti-outsider.
“So should have we have overlooked genocide and war crimes?”
In relation to Kosovo I remember the images of prisoners in camps with the clear implication by our media that these were concentration camps similar to those run by the Nazis. I also seem to remember that aerial photos were shown purporting to be mass graves. However, after the UN took control I don’t remember much coverage of all the mass graves being uncovered. I also suspect that part of the reason for intervention was to show that the West isn’t anti-Muslim.
Posted by on Mar 06, 2008 @ 10:41 PM‘But no major or minor ethnic, racial or cultural differences!’
I’d guess there were some probably minor. What they were I can’t say . Does it matter anyway. Did’nt prevent any of them from beating the crap out of the neighbouring ‘kingdoms’‘The Kosovars are Serbs’
Not according to the Kosovars and I would say they know better who they are rather then you or I.
’ However, after the UN took control I don’t remember much coverage of all the mass graves being uncovered.’Mainly because the Serbs did’nt get a chance to replicate their Bosnian Muslim genocide . I’m sure you recall Srebenica and the bodies of 8,000 young Bosnian muslims found in a mass grave -each killed by a bullet to the head by Serbian forces ! Had the Serbs managed to stay in Kosovo the number of Kosovan dead would have been in 6 figures . No question ! The USA at least on this occassion did the right thing !
‘I thought we were all having a conversation and throwing in our two bob’s worth. That is all I am doing here.’
Posted by on Mar 07, 2008 @ 07:28 PM
