Tuesday, March 04, 2008
“A new campaign for reunification might sound great at an árd fheis, but..”
In the Irish Examiner, Fergus Finlay makes a couple of good points, firstly relating to “The price of peace”
Actually, the best possibility of arriving at Irish unity is if we let it happen by chance. The central dynamic of the peace process was to arrive at a point where those who were at the heart of the problem were transplanted, eventually, into becoming the heart of the solution.
And on the feasibility, or otherwise, of Adams’ “high-powered taskforce” driving forward a “road-map to Irish unity”
IN THE years ahead, a stable and prosperous Northern Ireland could be electing governments with a very clear mandate to work well with the government of the dynamic economy down here. We could well find that both governments, for example, are taking positions in Europe that are at odds with the positions adopted by Westminster. And little by little, the things that unite us could start coming into focus, while the things that divide us fade into distant memory.
But just suppose unity across the island was to come about that way. Do you know what it would be called? It would be called unity by consent — an agreement to run our affairs together in the best interests of all of us.
The political parties of this part of the island signed up to that principle an awful long time ago and Sinn Féin eventually, in their signing of various agreements and their taking of office in the Northern Ireland Executive, signed up to it, too. A bit late, but then, as they say, better late than never.
I’ve no idea whether unity by consent will happen in my lifetime (and like most people, I suspect, I’m not too bothered). But I do know that it’s the only kind of unity that will ever work. A new campaign for reunification might sound great at an árd fheis, but there’s a different game in town. I wonder do Sinn Féin get it?
As Michael Longley said, “peace is the absence of war: the opposite of war is custom, customs, and civilization.”
Pete Baker @ 12:03 PM
MMmmm.. also will lead to people seeing that British and Irish national identities are not incompatiable contrary to the basic biulding block of Irish nationalist thinking.
Maybe as Council of the Isles gets up and running the English speaking people of these islands will all realise they shop in the same shops, engage with the same media, etc, etc. that - subject to retained devolved Assemblies in Scotland, Wales and Ireland that one national government will sufficePosted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 12:29 PMRead the article earlier and it is nonsense. Just like every time someone suggests a United Ireland will come about through some spontaneous method. It simply isn’t going to happen.
He is right in that there needs to be a period where the interests of North and South converge for it to happen; not just in terms of attitudes, but in terms of economics and politics. So it is good, for example,t hat everyone is pushing for a uniform business tax rate and FF are organising here. But it positively will not happen if there are no parties pushing for it. Look at Scotland; conditions are more favourable at the moment for independence than perhaps they have been previously, and part of that is the Scottish Parliament has been up and running and Scotland’s politics has diverged from England’s. But would it be such a major talking point, considered so dangerous to the existence of the Union, if the SNP were there, moderately successful and pushing it? Please.
Second, the issue of Unification is and always will be more vital North than South. They are independent. We are dependent, and large swathes of our policy is decided elsewhere. Second, the SDLP tried postnationalism, and was crushed. If SF follows the same line, they’ll run into an FF promising they can do more for unity, and will face the same fate. They might well find difficultly anyway.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 12:38 PM*SNP weren’t there
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 12:39 PMIts only a lack of vision and imagination
that’s holding back the tide towards the inevitable unity by consent.I imagine Adams is from the contemplative tradition!
he wants to start a inter/national conversation.
Nothing wrong with that, its hard to beat.Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 12:59 PMThe actual gist of Finlay’s article is that there is no great impetus toward unification in the RoI in the first place. It’s worth reading alongside Alex Kane’s column dealing with SF’s failures
[html/]http://www.newsletter.co.uk/opinion/McGuinness-reminds-us-that-the.3835886.jp[html]
The pertinent poin is not that unification is more likely to occur by organic methods, but rather that it isn’t going to happen anytime soon at all.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 01:18 PMThe actual gist of Finlay’s article is that there is no great impetus toward unification in the RoI in the first place. It’s worth reading alongside Alex Kane’s column dealing with SF’s failures
And yet he also points that most people would still want to see it. There is no impetus because at this point it seems unlikely. If it looked like there would be a Yes vote North, you can expect it to ratchet up the scale. As I said, it’ll always be more urgent North, because we are the ones who have to deal with it. That’s simply human nature.
Kane spends so many articles detailing how Unionism has won I wonder who he is trying to convince.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 01:35 PMIt seems that Elvis has the germ of an idea - that the Isles be split on the basis of language.
Maybe as Council of the Isles gets up and running the English speaking people of these islands will all realise they shop in the same shops, engage with the same media, etc, etc. that - subject to retained devolved Assemblies in Scotland, Wales and Ireland that one national government will sufficeAll the English speakers could move overseas and all Scots Gaelic, Ulster Scots, Lowland Scots, Manx, Irish and Welsh speakers could come and live in Ireland. We would also extend a céad míle fáilte to all immigrants whatever language they speak apart from, of course, English. Then we could make a fresh start here, in the absence of the monoglots, and set about building a society in which tolerance and non sectarianism are the foundations.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 01:40 PMOlibhear - as an English speaker I assume that you will be first on the boat…
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 01:46 PM“And yet he also points that most people would still want to see it.”
He actually points out that most people in Southern Ireland have a vague rhetorical adherence to theoretical unification. Of course that is very much different from practical support if unification became likely. Actually it is the very fact that unification is not imminent that allows the majority in ROI to voice notional support for it without that commitment meaning anything.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 01:48 PMHi Oliver,
“Then we could make a fresh start here, in the absence of the monoglots, and set about building a society in which tolerance and non sectarianism are the foundations.”
You mean like the Unified, Gaelic speaking republic of FF wet dreams. Dream on! Not unified. Gaelic dying a death. And ironically enough, the last bastion of Thatcher’s Britain, although incidentally not a bad thing. As the minority in the isles you’ll just keep following the UK’s lead. Not being part of the UK just means you don’t have any say in it.
Just when will the prodigal republic come back to the family?
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 02:03 PMChekov,
Let’s put it to the people of Ireland then. A simple vote for or against re-unification on a 32 county basis and let’s abide by the peoples wishes.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 02:05 PMMaybe as Council of the Isles gets up and running the English speaking people of these islands will all realise they shop in the same shops, engage with the same media, etc, etc. that - subject to retained devolved Assemblies in Scotland, Wales and Ireland that one national government will suffice
You could argue that the Scots are drawing the opposite conclusion. That the Council of the Isles shows that there is a way to manage common interests without keeping three small countries in a lopsided union with a much larger one.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 02:08 PMThe most important thing here is for the unionists to loose their slave-minded mentality. People can talk about a united Ireland all they want but the most appaling thing on this island is to watch grown men stoop and bend over a barrell for all things english. Grow a pair for God’s sake. The truth will set you free.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 02:22 PMalready the financial links between north and south cross our narrow sectarian divides and business will go were its cheaper and where theres profit to be made.....
unification will only come about when the interests of those who govern behind the scenes,and pull the strings of our politicians be they Nationalist or Unionist, say the time is right…
what we need both here and in the south is a party that will work for the rights of those who`ve been led like lambs to the slaughter by both the Orange and Green..
sometimes when I look at the policies of SF,SDLP,DUP,UUP, its hard to see any difference if we leave aside the National issues…
where is the party that`ll put the interests of the downtrodden, the homeless, the unemployed, the agency workers!!!
middle class politicians serving middle class interests…
the ultimate watered down acceptable face of “social democracy”.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 02:36 PMHi Truth,
“the most appaling thing on this island is to watch grown men stoop and bend over a barrell for all things english”
You mean like blogging in English, speaking English, playing English sport, watching English TV, listening to English music, adopting the English property obsession, etc, etc…
“Grow a pair for God’s sake”
I suggest you start with eyes and ears and then maybe try to get Mr brain interpreting the signals from them.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 02:36 PMThe Scotland is further from independence than it was in, say, 1998. The SNP have only done well because they have put all the independence stuff on the back burner. Don’t mistake tiffs for a break up.
In any case, comparisons with Scotland were and are duff. Scotland was never a colony nor colonised for a start. Nor is it partitioned - the real issue here.
I’m all for a commission into irish unity but the issue those of us who believe in it have to answer is this: are we really prepared to make the changes needed to make it happen.
No more “first national language” for Gaelige for a start. Different national anthem (I suppose we have “ireland’s call” already :-/), a very different attitude to our country’s history (eg we cannot stigmatise a quarter of the population as strangers).
I’m not sure we’re ready for it.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 02:40 PMHe actually points out that most people in Southern Ireland have a vague rhetorical adherence to theoretical unification.
Actually, that isn’t what he said.
Of course that is very much different from practical support if unification became likely. Actually it is the very fact that unification is not imminent that allows the majority in ROI to voice notional support for it without that commitment meaning anything.
There isn’t even a part yin the South that would run a No campaign. The problem is up here, and always has been.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 02:50 PMYou may be speaking of your little england existence there but certainly not everyones. There is GAA, TG4, Irish music, an Ghaeilge ár ndóigh, from Rasharkin to Pettigo to Killeen. I’d be happy even with an Independent country, but bowing down to england, its just so cringingly embarrassing.
Arise dear serfs.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 02:51 PMCS Parnell,
“No more “first national language” for Gaelige for a start. Different national anthem (I suppose we have “ireland’s call” already :-/), a very different attitude to our country’s history (eg we cannot stigmatise a quarter of the population as strangers).I’m not sure we’re ready for it.”
You certainly aren’t if you are dictating to the island as a whole what has to be chucked.
Southerners make up 71% of the island population (and growing) and for all you know this grouping might want to retain the constutional protections for Irish.
Would you be against us southerners demanding that we maintain our constitutional protection for the Irish language or are you just looking to promote English to a par?
In other words, south of the border we promote English to a higher station it currently has and north of it you promote Irish to a higher station.
After all, we will most likely be the ones bankrolling this little unification gesture.
Also, I assume the “strangers” you refer to are unionists, who are at 15% of the island population, not 25%.
Or are you taking about the entire population of Northern Ireland?
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 03:10 PMHi Truth,
“There is GAA, TG4, Irish music, an Ghaeilge ár ndóigh, from Rasharkin to Pettigo to Killeen.”
They’d be well known in world terms wouldn’t they? FFS ye can’t even get the little Irelanders to commit to Gaelic. Wtf would anyone else? Maybe it’ll take a few generations but the prodigal Irish will return to the British fold. Irish nationalism’s day has come and gone. Yourselves alone isn’t gonna work…
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 03:14 PMChekov “He actually points out that most people in Southern Ireland have a vague rhetorical adherence to theoretical unification”
exactly, and this is no more than spending 6 months living in the south will tell you. yes they’ll nod politely and aver if some nordie starts up about reunification after a couple of pints, but aside from that the over-riding reaction is indifference.
when i hear what a lot of northern irish republicans say, i must say it makes me wonder how much they actually know about their southern brethern - for example the thread below, “SF needs more than media exposure”, where some of the comments from republicans bring up a tack to the left as a potential vote-winner in the south!!! good luck with that.. I would put the proponents of this belief in the same category as a man who is convinced that codpieces are likely to come back into fashion..
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 03:16 PMBritain is to the east of Ireland. Wanting to die an englishman is such a defeatist trait to posess. Independent Northern Ireland is calling out to you, turn to her, throw off the chains of england, as the englishman must surely grow weak from pumping you from behind.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 03:25 PMCC
Maybe it’ll take a few generations but the prodigal Irish will return to the British fold. Irish nationalism’s day has come and gone. Yourselves alone isn’t gonna work…
Yeah, because the Republic is doing badly at the moment and Ireland doesn’t have a high level of patriotism :rolleyes:
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 03:30 PMGeorge, your figures are right. I’m still stuck in the 70s in that respect.
But my basic point is valid. A united Ireland would have to cherish all traditions and histories and identities equally.
That means an end to the hope of “gaelic reconquest” and also to the official promotion of 1916 and all it entails as the beginning point.
In other words a unified Ireland won’t be like the reunification of Germany - it will be the creation of a totally new state.
That’s the only basis I can see the idea making any progress. Are we up for it? I don’t think we are.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 03:31 PMThe other point is this: northern nationalists have to respect the spirit as well as the letter of the agreement. Demanding a 32 county state when we can get 50% + 1 in a referendum (a long way off whatever your views on demographics so long as 15 - 20% of catholics vote for the UK) just isn’t good enough.
We actually have to persuade quite a few of them uns that they want to be part of this.
Posted by on Mar 04, 2008 @ 03:36 PM
