‘Reprobate Theology’: The Divinity and the Depravity of the US Presidential Campaign…

If you had to give this US Presidential election a slogan, it really would have to be ‘Yes, This Is Really Happening’…

Look, I won’t bother to catalog in detail here the myriad reasons that I think Trump is singularly unqualified for high office- the hate, the fear, the lies, the conspiracies, the arrogance, the sexual boasting- and go straight to one aspect of the whole thing that has me thinking:

The large number of prominent Evangelicals supporting him.

When news started to filter out some months ago that many influential Evangelical Christian leaders- as well as many suburban, older, white Evangelical voters (this is a very important distinction to make this early in this piece; younger, black, and Latino Evangelicals, who are largely forgotten and ignored when the term ‘Evangelicals’ gets used in a political context, are another matter entirely) were endorsing Trump, many of my Christian friends- particularly the Evangelical ones- were apoplectic. My social media erupted with posts with variations of ‘Why? WHY?! WWHHYYYYYYYYY!!!???’

Me? I wasn’t surprised in the slightest.

Why? Well, I’ll have to preface this by saying the unthinkable: Donald, this has nothing to do with you…

I’ve been cognizant of politics for over 30 years, and in those years, there have been few political realities as enduring as Evangelical Christian America’s dislike for Hilary Clinton.

I don’t mean ‘dislike’ in the sense of the ‘dislike’ one might feel for a politician with whom one disagrees; I mean ‘dislike’ in the same way one ‘dislikes’ smallpox…

Clinton is loathed, loathed on an elemental level; feared for what her presence might mean for their lives and the lives of loved ones; they hope and pray that all possible actions will be taken to stop her before she destroys again.

And like smallpox, she is loathed by many not as a person or a personality, but as an entity, a force; a disembodied, existential threat.

Whenever Clinton ran for President, the majority of suburban, white, older Evangelical Christian America was going to support whoever opposed her.

Last year, Donald Trump- an amoral, a-religious, profane, thrice-married, twice-divorced adulterer and CEO of a bankrupt gambling empire- became that opposition.

Most Evangelicals, of course, initially supported Jeb Bush, Cruz, Rubio, Carson… sometimes for their Evangelical and conservative bona fides, but always, underneath, because of the threat of Clinton. Each of these men in turn succumbed to Trump’s unique and unprecedented brand of insult-fuelled bullying, eventually leaving only Trump…

… and Clinton, the important part of this sentence being the ‘… and Clinton’.

Many observers thought that, for the majority of Evangelicals, support for Trump would be an insurmountable obstacle.

Focus on the Family founder and prominent Evangelical leader James Dobson laid the groundwork for demolishing that obstacle last June, announcing that Trump had recently come to ‘accept a relationship with Christ’ and was now ‘a baby Christian’. He gave no details, even saying he didn’t know when this conversion had occurred, only suggesting that it had been recent.

The right-wing, conservative Evangelical word breathed a collective, almost-audible sigh of relief. Trump was one of them.

What followed was, in my opinion, one of the most fascinating theological developments in the history of American politics, what I’d call ‘Reprobate Theology’.

At the heart of ‘Reprobate Theology’ is a dual commitment to the Christian doctrine of Total Depravity and the Pauline view of salvation. Emerging from Augustine of Hippo, Total Depravity concludes that every person is enslaved to sin, unable to satisfy divine justice in any way other than the unmerited grace of God. Through this grace, accomplished through the death of Christ, according to the Apostle Paul, the utterly depraved human becomes ‘a new creation; old things have passed away; all things are become new (2 Cor. 5:17)’.

So far, so standard Christian theology. But its specific political praxis that ‘Reprobate Theology’ comes into its own.

This praxis is twofold; first, there is the idea that the depravity itself is somehow to be, if not celebrated, then explicitly seen as irrelevant beside God’s ability to use the depraved person to do his will. God’s use of the person effectively takes all concerns, not just of the person’s sinful history, but indirectly their current qualifications, expertise (or lack of either), basic character, and temperament off the table, out of consideration.

And, ironically, the more depraved the better, it would seem. Many Evangelical Trump supporters immediately began scouring the Biblical text for serial adulterers given a divine pass. They didn’t have to look far. David! Solomon! Samson! Killers, adulterers, warlords, despots… And God used them! Why can’t he use Donald Trump? After all, he’sdepraved! I’m a sinner and God uses me! Stop judging! God’s got a plan…

Thus, bad behaviour is not an indication of a person’s character (regardless of everything drummed into my head from 8 years of Baptist High School…) but of the greatness of God’s forgiveness…

Helpfully, ‘Reprobate Theology’ is cyclically reinforcing; ongoing revelations of depravity serve only to strengthen it; the worse you are, the more God is glorified if he uses you.

Secondly, ‘Reprobate Theology’ explicitly makes all past depravities off limits in terms of measuring competency or adequacy. Now that Trump is a ‘Christian’- a ‘new creation’- his past is off limits. After all, you can’t judge a brother in Christ. And we’re all sinners, sinners saved by grace…

My social media has been filled for two weeks with ‘Reprobate Theology’, and it’s very difficult to argue against. ‘Trump is a serial misogynist’; ‘So was David, and God used him’. ‘He has a bad character’; ‘So did Samson, and God used him’. ‘He’s woefully uninformed on even the basics of foreign policy, diplomacy, economics, trade…’ ‘’God has used the foolish things to confound the wise’…

The misuse of the Biblical text in this way is profoundly disturbing and personally frustrating for me. I care far, far too much for the Biblical text to see it used to excuse racism, misogyny, and stupidity.

Needless to say, ‘Reprobate Theology’ is meaningless because it can only be used in one direction; it uses the Biblical text to insulate Trump from criticism, but not Clinton herself or her husband. Their past indecencies, indiscretions, and alleged crimes are fair game.

In fact, they are all magnified, as the election itself becomes, not simply an election, but a spiritual battle of Armageddon-sized proportions.

Why? Because Clinton herself has been so dehumanized for so long, she has morphed in the collective consciousness of ‘Reprobate’ theologians into something almost entirely abstract. She is not simply a liar; she is untruth personified. She is not simply incompetent; she is chaos itself. She is not pro-choice; she is death walking around.

And she is certainly not a Christian, a lifetime of Methodism notwithstanding. Clinton’s Christianity is dismissed out of hand with the same finality as Trump’s is accepted.

The logical conclusion of this is radio host and notorious conspiracy theorist Alex Jones’s rant on his radio show:

(Hilary Clinton) is an abject, psychopathic demon from Hell that as soon as she gets into power is going to try to destroy the planet. 

I’m sure of that, and people around her say she’s so dark now, and so evil, and so possessed that they are having nightmares, they’re freaking out. 

Folks, let me just tell you something, and if media wants to go with this, that’s fine. There are dozens of videos and photos of Obama having flies land on him, indoors, at all times of year, and he’ll be next to a hundred people and no one has flies on them. 

Hillary, reportedly, I mean, I was told by people around her that they think she’s demon-possessed, okay? I’m just going to go ahead and say it, okay?

They said that they’re scared. That’s why when I see her when kids are by her, I actually get scared myself, with a child — with that big rubber face and that — I mean this woman is dangerous, ladies and gentleman. I’m telling you, she is a demon. This is Biblical. She’s going to launch a nuclear war. The Russians are scared of her.

[…]

Imagine how bad she smells, man? I’m told her and Obama, just stink, stink, stink, stink. You can’t wash that evil off, man. Told there’s a rotten smell around Hillary. I’m not kidding, people say, they say — folks, I’ve been told this by high up, folks. They say listen, Obama and Hillary both smell like sulfur. I never said this because the media will go crazy with it, but I’ve talked to people that are in protective details, they’re scared of her. And they say listen, she’s a frickin’ demon and she stinks and so does Obama. I go, like what? Sulfur. They smell like Hell.

Before you dismiss Jones, understand that his show attracts 2 million listeners a week and Trump, when being interviewed on Jones’s website in December of last year, praised him. ‘Your reputation is amazing’, Trump said, ‘I will not let you down’…

‘Reprobate Theology’ is similar to the idea of ‘Disaster Theology’ I posted about on 21 August- it’s nonsense. It’s unsystematic, illogical, hurtful, hateful, and utterly biblically baseless. Any theological model that requires so many loopholes and exceptions to ‘work’ is simply bad theology- random, pointless, and anti-Christian.

The theological lesson of the 2016 US Presidential race might just end up being that, if the doctrine of Total Depravity is seriously brought to bear upon it, you just might end up supporting a candidate who is totally depraved…

Jon Hatch is a theologian, educator, and activist. He spent 13 years living and working in North and West Belfast with various reconciliation projects sponsored by Corrymeela, the Irish Peace Centres, and local churches and faith-based groups. He blogs on issues relating to faith, politics, and culture at http://reflectionsforthursdays.blogspot.com. This post was first published on his blog.

, , ,

  • hgreen

    Evangelical Christians hate Clinton because she is a woman. All religions seem to hate women.

    Christians seem to be extremely gullible so it isn’t a surprise that they were easily seduced by an arsehole like trump, another woman hater. The rise of Trump is the inevitable result of the take over of the Republican Party by God botherers.

  • grumpy oul man

    Thanks for this thread, It is great to see that not all Christians are of the extreme right.
    Reading slugger I am continually amazed at how “Christians” can pack so much venom into their posts!

    I have debated with people who insist that Hitler was a leftie, Historians are left wing Bullsh%*ters, Scientist are involved in a conspiracy (climate change) to destroy capitalism(all in the one post) it appears that these people believe that if you disagree with them you are inherently evil or a fool!
    The obvious lack of knowledge of the sciences and history is frightening, one poster claimed that if Muslims had their way then female circumcision would be the norm, no matter how many times it was pointed out to him that female circumcision was not part of Muslim theology but instead practiced by both Christian and Muslim groups in parts of Africa he was not for listening, Muslims are bad female circumcision is bad so Muslims practice female circumcision was his logic.
    It will be interesting to see if any of these people contribute to this thread (by the way they all seem great supporters of Donald and hate Hilary) again thank you i was beginning to think that all Christians where of the sort that you refer to.

  • chrisjones2

    Poor America ………. caught with a choice of one of two equally appalling candidates ….. the best choice might be to be not to vote at all so to de-legitimise whoever cons the largest number of people

  • Brian O’Neill

    The choice is between a punch in the face or a boot in the balls.

  • chrisjones2

    “I am continually amazed at how “Christians” can pack so much venom into their posts!”

    Forgive me but come on …..its only 200 – 300 years since they stopped burning witches and heretics, 150 years since they agreed that slavery was a bad idea and 50 years since they saw women as “occasions of sin” and sold off children born out of wedlock to be taken to the colonies or America

  • chrisjones2

    So you think Hilary is a fine upstanding honest candidate then?

  • Brian O’Neill

    Bit unfair. We were quite happy worshipping Celtic Goddesses before those meddling christians came along. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Celtic_deities

  • grumpy oul man

    Yes all true but it should be remembered that many Christians where also central to stopping those things (and many non Christians also) so we should not stereotype.

  • terence patrick hewett

    I’m on my way: Elmer Gantry:

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Brian, I occasionally still come across a few local people who still do……..

    http://paganfederationireland.com

  • Teddybear

    Sanctimonious liberal cant. Trump is the only candidate for years if not ever who espouses bringing jobs back to the US

    Not a single cell phone or aircraft dashboard component or advanced military hardware is physically made in the US but largely in China, a country that cannot be trusted for well documented reasons on the public record.

    Who cares what Trumps says about women etc. He’s not running for Vicar of Dibley. He’s a man who well get things done. He will put Americans first. The real Americans

  • hgreen

    She’s as fine and upstanding as most who have been elected president. Most of the attacks on her in this campaign have been spurious and the rantings of the Christian right. If there was serious dirt on her it would have been found by now.

  • hgreen

    The man hasn’t paid tax in 18 years and you actually think he’ll put Americans first. Yea who cares what he thinks of women. WTF?

  • hgreen

    The choice is clear. The fact that you think they are equally appalling indicates you think misogyny and racism are trivial matters.

  • hgreen

    Don’t be stupid. No it isn’t.

  • grumpy oul man

    So do you think that Obama smells of Sulfur and is a demon in disguise?
    and who cares what Trump says about women, well women for a start and anybody with even a little decency.
    And who are the real Americans, are women real Americans, how about Latinos who where born in the USA.

  • grumpy oul man

    Sara Palin is a women (OK a nut job but still a women) and trumps lot love her.

  • chrisjones2

    The choice is between a boor and a crook. Read the emails where the blessed Hilary is selling preferential access to State department Officials to donors to the Clinton Foundation. Look at how money was illegally transferred to the Foundation to make it appear clean when it was actually very very dirty. Look at how that Foundation Money is spent

    Look at the lies she has told about joining the Marines, about Bills affairs and the assaults on young women.

    Listen to her speech to Goldmans – I have principles for the public but what I am really going to do will help you. Kerching!!

  • chrisjones2

    Yep ……. Americans need a revolution in their politics. Its almost as bad as NI – which may be why they have an affinity with here

  • chrisjones2

    Yes….but corporately many were not and the Churches supported them until the bitter end. Its was only exposure in the media that stopped the more recent abuses. If some Bishops had their way they would still be covering them up

  • chrisjones2

    “Evangelical Christians hate Clinton because she is a woman”

    Thats just utter twaddle. I am sire that many of them view her with a range of emotions.

    Some will be gulled that she has sense of social justice and vote for her.

    Some just want a woman president.

    Others see her as a confidence trickster and crook not fit for the job.

    Then there will also be those who not want her because she is female or incompetent, or part of the same Washington Elite

    The sad think is that although shes so poor and awful and dangerous a candidate shes better than the alternative

  • chrisjones2

    …and there is the Mary cult

  • chrisjones2

    Didnt they nick one near Larne last year?

  • chrisjones2

    It has been …read the emails and speeches …….

  • grumpy oul man

    what you say is all true, but again i say many brave and decent Christians opposed and fought against the evils you mentioned.

    Perhaps the greatest offender was the Catholic Church but it was and still is the Largest of all the Religions so i suspect in proportion they probably come out level in infamy however that does not negate the good done by many Catholics.
    I will now break Godwin s law, forgive me.
    While many Catholics helped Hitler (a Catholic) to gas the Jews,the disabled, Socialists and the Gays many others risked their lives to save Jews,the disabled, Socialists and the Gays is that Heroism to be forgoting among the horror!

  • davidt

    I have to laugh at evangelicalism nonsense. The founding father of evangelicalism Luther himself spun into old age madness, so maybe the apple 🍎 does not fall very far from the tree. As a movement of political self delusion with fractional brief moments of warm fuzzy moments of truth i would say evangelicalism tends to be a rather warm fuzzy an that’s about it. Not much going on, lacks much self awareness metro sexual in a Penn state weird kind of way. More cult than it realized more political than it should be, more informed about nothing that is healthy cluess to the topic god. I might say there needs to be a serious coming to Jesus meeting but since all evangelicals understand Jesus as a hand puppet like person with ventriloquists’ as leaders how do you talk into such a delusion about the text they “believe” they understand? No evidence that it generally does, and what tiny evidence of it slightly effective impact is washed away by the collectives self bs. Theology is dead. Jesus. Hmmm how Quaker of me!!!! Lol.

  • chrisjones2

    Well the Nazis were against religion but many of the Germans no doubt were stout Luterans

  • hgreen

    Where have you been the last 50 years. Most of what Hillary’s been accused of is how politics operates today. The accusations about her attacks on Bill’s women are unsubstantiated.

    To attempt to equate Clinton’s behaviour to Trump’s repugnant behaviour makes you nothing more than an apologist for misogyny and racism.

    Describing Trump as merely boorish really says something nasty about how you regard women.

  • Brian Walker

    There is a terrible pathology here as bad or worse than the witches of Salem. A string of communities in deliberate isolation from the wider world despite all the advantages of modern communication and the enlightenment. Sad evidence that human nature doesn’t necessarily improve with age . I see that some strands of Bible Christianity are dropping the word “evangelical ” for fear of being misunderstood. The ultimate conclusion is the mass suicide of the Jonestown massacre.

  • grumpy oul man

    Well they did try to form there own Christian religion because he didn’t like the existing one’s but is that not how all the religions from the reformation onward s where formed! and both Mien Kamp and the SS oath (which he wrote)call upon almighty god and I doubt they meant Allah.
    Hitler was born a catholic and never denounced it and was never excommunicated.
    The SS had Pastors and priests in it ranks who had religious duties (confession,services, mass etc) so i think its fair to say they have at least as good a claim to being Christian as many others.
    Certainly they could be considered very bad Christians or even just using it as a facade to justify their murderous activities, but it is very reasonable to assume that among the members of the Nazi Party and ranks of the SS there where those who really believed what they where doing was for the sake of Christian Civilization.
    we also know of those who believed it was their Christian duty to try to save the lives of those who Hitler wished dead and many of those ended up in the death camps because of their courage and humanity!

  • Gary Thompson

    Christopher Hitchens had a lot to say about the Nazis & Christianity; there are heaps of videos on Youtube. One thing he said which I haven’t verified is that only one leading Nazi was ever excommunicated by the Catholic Church (Himmler), and that was because he married a Protestant.

  • Gary Thompson

    He may espouse bringing back jobs to the US, but that’s because his target audience wants to hear that. How would that actually be achieved? Firms moved production off shore because it was cheaper to have things made in China, or Malaysia, or wherever is the latest low cost country. That enabled them to either maintain their goods’ sale price & rack up the profits, or undercut their competition (until they did the same thing). Either way it’s capitalism red in tooth & claw. How does Trump’s vow to return jobs to the US square with his capitalism & hatred of gummint intervention? Is he going to provide subsidies for these jobs, or make it illegal to offshore work? It’s a great soundbite, but falls apart after about 10 seconds thought.

  • wild turkey

    Jon
    thanks for this post.

    it is a timely discussion of a worldview which , in my experience,has been always been distant, usually inchoate, and just, well, weird.

    you have written with, ah, the clarity and precision of the Hubble Telescope. my youngest son is compelled by the statutory curriculum to study RE @ GCSE level. Although in NI the separation of church and state concerns neither curriculum or constitutional government. nonetheless his studies may benefit from your post. so again, thanks

    from a historical point of view, on the issue you have discussed, check out American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America by Colin Woodward.

    Mahalo

  • Abucs

    You chose not to debate Grumpy.

  • Abucs

    Nuremberg trial documents.

    http://www.leics.gov.uk/the_nazi_master_plan.pdf

    Video by Jewish Researcher Gary Krupp criticising the anti-Catholic Propaganda with regard to the Nazis which began in 1959. He presents comprehensive details usually referring to primary original documents including community publications, official records and private written/cable communications. .

    Video includes mention of ex-communications. (At 3 mins mark and 6:25 min mark).

  • Abucs

    “150 years since they agreed that slavery was a bad idea ”

    Who were they agreeing with? – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_de_Vitoria

    Thomas Sowell videos about slavery

  • grumpy oul man

    There is only so far you can debate with someone who’s argument consists of conspricy theories and sterotypes, you have a very individual notion of history and dismiss those who study it as leftwing bulls#*!ers.
    Your argument against climate change depends on the scientific community conspiring to hide the truth and it is part of a leftie conspricy to destroy capitalism.
    You lump Maoists. Stalinists and socailist along with what you term the PC relegion as one big group all guilty if the sins of any other.
    Hows does one debate with that level of confusion.
    I did debate but everytime i showed the contradictions and false assumptions of your argument you merely repeated them..
    For example, part of your argument that Hitler was anti relegion was that he disagreed with the established churchs and tried to start his own, no matter how many time i pointed out that this is the process by which most of the existing christain churchs came about and was not proof that hitler was anti religious, however this simple piece of logic seemed beyond you.
    As i say i realised that i had better things to do than repeating facts in the hope you would have the wit to recognise them.

  • grumpy oul man

    A much worse crime than murdering millions?

  • grumpy oul man

    Oh dear.
    You still seem unaware that you can be anti catholic and still a christain. If you are in any doubt go and get a book on the history of Christianity since the reformation on a visit to any mission hall in Ballymena that should clear ip any confusion.

  • Gary Thompson

    Well, bearing in mind the only source for this I have is a Youtube video of Christopher Hitchens making the statement, then it would appear that, to the Vatican, it was indeed a worse crime.

  • grumpy oul man

    Are you seriously claiming that Christains both as churchs and individuals where not involved or did not benifit from the americian slave trade!

  • npbinni

    It’s become patently obvious that integrity, honesty, decency and competence are no longer expected qualities in a US presidential candidate. Duplicity, corruption and vulgarity are the order of the day.

    I would suggest that the most moral person since perhaps Washington or Lincoln to become a presidential candidate was Mitt Romney. But he was destroyed by a particularly deceitful political opposition and a hostile media. Candidates of the calibre of Romney are few and far between.

    A recent calculation shows that media coverage of the negatives aspects of the candidates is something in the order of a 20-1 ratio against Trump. It’s clear he has brought much of this on himself by his alleged deeds and stupid words, but it also gives an indication of a clear partisanship by huge sections of the media. It cannot be denied that both current candidates have a trail of scandals that no other presidential candidate in American history can match.

    So, if the character of the candidates no longer matters, then the only thing left to differentiate between the two is on policy. And this is why many Christians seem to be willing to hold their nose and support Trump, because Clinton is the antithesis of everything Christian and conservative.

    I, as did many Christians, reckoned Trump was the worst GOP candidate in the primaries, but here we are, and here are some reasons why many of those Christians will vote Trump:

    – The GOP and Dem platforms are as different as night and day, one strongly conservative, the other leftist, with many anti-biblical positions.

    – Both candidates are seriously flawed, but, for most people, a blatantly vulgar and brash person is preferable to a devious, cunning and deceptive person.

    – Trump has surrounded himself with a lot of very good people.

    – Trump is in line with Christian thinking on perhaps 75 percent of the issues; Clinton, maybe 10%, if that.

    – Trump opposes globalism. Hillary thrives on it.

    – Voting for a third party candidate,or not voting at all is basically wasting your vote

    – Trump has moved to a pro-life position. Hillary is openly pro-abortion, even up to extremely late in the pregnancy.

    – Trump wants to defend America. Clinton has a terrible track record as Secretary of State and played a large part in many of Obama’s foreign policy failures (think Libya, Russia in particular).

    – Trump is not beholden to foreign nations. Clinton, due to hundreds of millions of dollars given to her and her husband’s foundation, owes a lot to those who hate America.

    – Trump will address massive, wasteful government spending and overreach. Hillary will expand spending beyond the $20 trillion debt Obama has already built up, and will use the government against ordinary citizens (worse even than when Obama used the IRS against conservative groups)

    – Political freedom, economic freedom and religious liberty. The perception is that Clinton will decimate all three.

    – And, of course, Supreme Court appointments. Probably the biggest issue for Christians and conservatives.

  • billypilgrim1

    I think a lot of people are pretty tired of being called misogynist when they’re not.

    I also think a lot of Christians are tired of being addressed with the kind of utter bigotry you have demonstrated here. You clearly absolutely HATE Christians – why on earth would you expect them to listen to you or vote the way you want them to?

    Would you be inclined to listen to someone who addressed you with such hatred?

  • billypilgrim1

    If Trump was running against Elizabeth Warren, this race wouldn’t even be close. She’d be ahead by 30 points.

  • billypilgrim1

    “…I am continually amazed at how “Christians” can pack so much venom into their posts!”

    Fair point, but I am equally amazed at how blind secularists are to their own prejudice. Christians are absolutely right to feel that they have to hear themselves traduced in polite company in a way no-one else is expected to accept.

  • billypilgrim1

    Hitler was no Catholic, and whatever the theology upbringing of its leaders, Nazism was an explicitly Pagan pseudo-religion.

  • billypilgrim1

    Perhaps he’s just tired of being called misogynist and racist by people who surely cannot know he is either of these things?

    Seriously, if Trump is elected, a big reason will because so many people are so tired of this kind of crying wolf.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    ?????????????

  • SeaanUiNeill

    “Our Lady”, chris, “Our Lady”……..

  • npbinni

    That’s just ludicrous, H.

  • Abucs

    You’re on your own planet Grumpy. As i remember you were telling me how Hitler was a Christian.

    Looking to destroy Christianity and fashioning a new movement based on the National Socialist state is not being Christian.

    Pretty simple.

    http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/adolf-hitler%E2%80%99s-nazi-reich-church-1942-ad-new-york-times-article

  • Abucs

    ummm show me where i said this, oh that;s right i didn’t.

    Earth calling.

  • Abucs

    ummm show me where i said someone who is anti-Catholic can’t be a Christian, oh that’s right i didn’t.

    Earth calling.

  • grumpy oul man

    you claimed the Nazis where not christian and offered as proof that they disagreed with the pope and fell out with other denominations, now please i re-posted this all for you a while ago, stop trying to deny you said these things,
    this was if you remember when you where pushing the insane theory that the Nazis where socialist.
    that by itself speaks wonders for your thought process!

  • grumpy oul man

    you know you could be right !

  • Abucs

    There’s a simple reason why you can’t point to where i said someone who is anti-Catholic can’t be a Christian.

    Earth calling.

    The National Socialists were not Christian and i gave many examples for that. The Nazis attack on the Catholic Church was one example, Nazis attacks on non Catholic Churches was another example. If the National Socialists attacked Christianity across the board don’t take a part of my evidence, ignore the rest and then assert something i did not say.

    Also don’t ignore that you were originally making the case that Hitler was a Catholic.

    Now this is a new thread and my reply was to Gary Johnson who asked about ex-communication of Nazis. Don’t butt in with your nonsense. Thank you.

    https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=Mk4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=The+National+Church+is+determined+to+exterminate+irrevocably+and+by+every+means+the+strange+and+foreign+Christian+faiths+imported+into+Germany+in+the+ill-omened+year+800&source=bl&ots=r1Zi5wvEY8&sig=IWgC9nhltSNuRte6uY0yD1BTjHw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy2Lqp_eHPAhUCxVQKHdSrDEkQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

  • Abucs

    Modern communication is weakening the influence of the old gate keepers of depraved political and media systems.

    What we are seeing is a fracturing of community and we should really ask ourselves why this is happening. The media and education has skewed to the left and that bias has caused a reaction in which Alex Jones is on the comical extreme.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

  • grumpy oul man

    Just seen your reply.
    You put forward “evidence” (how many times must we do this) that hitler was anti christain. Because he argured with the pope and tried to form his own relegion. Please try to keep up.

  • grumpy oul man

    Trumps links to the wacko Christian right is the main reason that he would be a disaster for the world if elected.
    That is of course leaving out his racism, sexism, ignorance of world affairs and general intolerance of other people.

  • grumpy oul man

    But then again it should be remembered that most of the alternate facts poured out by these micro groups are not facts but opinions based on religious beliefs and not reality!
    for instance is there any actual proof of electoral fraud (wide spread or otherwise ) there is certainly none in your examples (that’s 33 minutes i will never get back) this week the department of the US government said that deals with the integrity of elections stated there is no proof of organized fraud your examples have Just reinforced that statement.

  • grumpy oul man

    Hispanics are rapists,racist.
    just go up and grab a women’s P*ss%y they love it, misogynist .

  • grumpy oul man

    Bp1, only the nut jobs Get “traduced” the man who wrote this thread is a Christian and the man who shouted “she smell of sulfur is a christian nut job, us blind secularists can tell the difference but it seems you cant.

  • grumpy oul man

    “Looking to destroy Christianity and fashioning a new movement based on the National Socialist state is not being Christian.”

    lets us have a little look at this statement.

    “”Looking to destroy Christianity” not what Hitler said he was doing your words not his he claimed to be like Donald protesting western Christain values!

    “fashioning a new movement based on the National Socialist state is not being Christian.”

    something similar has been said every time someone started a new christian religion, normally involving violence and a lot of deaths.

  • grumpy oul man

    Not according to the Nazis!

  • John Collins

    Chris. I wholeheartedly agree with you they would be still reluctant to deal decisively with abusers. if they got away with it. However, they are not the only ones who are incapable of fearlessly exposing sex abusers. Look how long Smyth, the Liberal MP, Jimmy Saville and Gary Glitter, first convicted in some Far Eastern country, and those Muslim ‘gentlemen’ in Rotherham got away with their outrageous conduct in England.

  • billypilgrim1

    Where did Chris say any of that?

  • Rory of the Hills

    – “Trump is in line with Christian thinking on perhaps 75 percent of the issues; Clinton, maybe 10%”.

    LOL! Whatever you say buddy, sounds like you got it all figured out. Not worth arguing, enjoy 4 years of Hillary as your President.

  • grumpy oul man

    Go get a book on the reformation, read some real history not that biased mumbo jumbo you seem to be hooked on.

  • grumpy oul man

    Earth calling. LOL from the man who claimed hitler was a leftie.
    Seriously bit why dont you go back over some of your statements .
    Out of interest the delusional madmen who thinks Obamaand Clinton are demons and smell of Sulfur, do you think he is a christain how about those who believe him are they christains. They are after all parts of the christain right.
    I believe he has 2 million avid followers who believe him

  • grumpy oul man

    And here was me thinking you where talking about Trump just because you mentioned his name and the thread is about the complete BS his supporters come out with.

  • Abucs

    You can’t have Nazi’s explicitly state they want to get rid of Christianity and remove all bibles, take over churches, actually close down all Christian social groups and schools, be specifically called ‘not Christian’ by the pope of the day and still claim that somehow they were Christian.

    That is a pathology.

    Earth calling.

  • Abucs

    so you can’t show me where i said that then?

    Was it just another brain explosion?

  • Abucs

    No comment on the deliberate policy to select, train and place trouble makers at political rallies to foment violence and then deliberately seek to deceitfully blame the other side?

  • grumpy oul man

    Well since your claim that your links wbere evidence of election abuse i thought i would deal with that. Now i of course condemn any attempt to incite violence for poltical (or any other reason ) are we agreed that your links do not prove electoral fraud if not point out the proof in the links.
    No comment from you about wither the nutjob accusing prople of being demons is a christain.

  • grumpy oul man

    Could you give us a link (not one of these far right sites but a real historian) where the Nazis tried to remove all Bibles.
    He closed down all groups or intergated them into the nazi movement, chess clubs sports societys etc but not churchs wierd that if he was anti christain.
    And being called anti christain by the Pope again. Sort of the history of Christainity so i say again read some real history .
    Now get youer call sign right, i dont know where your calling from but its not earth.

  • Abucs

    Did you read the link that i posted about the Reich Church and Nazi plans for Christianity?

    https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=Mk4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=The+National+Church+is+determined+to+exterminate+irrevocably+and+by+every+means+the+strange+and+foreign+Christian+faiths+imported+into+Germany+in+the+ill-omened+year+800&source=bl&ots=r1Zi5wvEY8&sig=IWgC9nhltSNuRte6uY0yD1BTjHw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy2Lqp_eHPAhUCxVQKHdSrDEkQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Let me give you just one of the points.

    “………5. The National Reich Church is immutably fixed in its one objective: to destroy that Christian belief imported into Germany in the unfortunate year 800, whose tenets conflict with both the heart and the mentality of the German”.

    Rosenberg was chosen by Hitler to be the leader of the party while he was imprisoned in the early 1920’s and in 1934 he appointed Rosenberg to be the cultural and educational leader of the Reich.

    Here is the wikipedia link for Rosenberg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg

    Notable highlights

    ………….”He is considered one of the main authors of key National Socialist ideological creeds, including its racial theory, persecution of the Jews, Lebensraum, abrogation of the Treaty of Versailles, and opposition to degenerate modern art. He is known for his rejection of and hatred for Christianity”

    ……………”The Sanctum Officium in Rome recommended that Rosenberg’s Myth of the Twentieth Century be put on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum (list of books forbidden by the Catholic Church) for scorning and rejecting “all dogmas of the Catholic Church, indeed the very fundamentals of the Christian religion”

    This wikipedia link also mentions Rosenberg’s 30 point plan which i quoted above regarding point number 5.

    They were not Christian Grumpy. There is a whole wide range of evidence to prove this but here it is in black and white Nazi literature..

  • Abucs

    The National Socialists didn’t remove Bibles on mass, they had plans to remove bibles and stop the importation and printing of new ones.

    The links had already been provided above Grumpy.

    Let me quote directly several points of the 30 point National Socialist plan.

    10. The National Reich Church will unceasingly pursue its efforts to attach itself to the State, to which it will submit as a loyal servant. For this reason the National Reich Church demands that all church property belonging to all confessions shall be immediately handed over to the State.

    13. The National Reich Church demands the immediate cessation of the printing of the Bible, as well as its dissemination, throughout the Reich and colonies. All Sunday papers with any religious content also shall be suppressed.

    14. The National Reich Church shall see that the importation of the Bible and other religious works into Reich territory is made impossible.

    15. The National Reich Church decrees that the most important document of all time—therefore the guiding document of the German people—is the book of our Fuehrer, “Mein Kampf.” It recognizes that this book contains the principles of the purist ethnic morals under which the German people must live.

    16. The National Reich Church will see to it that this book spread its active forces among the entire population and that all Germans live by it.

    17. The National Reich Church stipulates that the future editions of “Mein Kampf” shall contain its present number of pages and contents unmodified.

    18. The National Reich Church will remove from the altars of all churches the Bible, the cross and religious objects.

    19. In their place will be set that which must be venerated by the German people and therefore is by God, our most saintly book, “Mein Kampf,” and to the left of this a sword.

    20. The “orators” of the National Reich Church, during their services, will explain to their hearers the contents of this book to the best of their consciences and their knowledge.

    29. The National Reich Church forbids the creation of any religious insignia.

    30. On the day of the foundation of the National Reich Church the Christian cross shall be removed from all churches, cathedrals and chapels inside the frontiers of the Reich and its colonies and will be replaced by the symbol of invincible Germany—the swastika.

  • billypilgrim1

    I was responding to hgreen’s remark to Chris:

    “Describing Trump as merely boorish really says something nasty about how you regard women.”

    How dare hgreen level such a hateful slander against Chris, on the basis that he has said positive things about Trump?

    These sorts of allegations of sexism, misogny, racism, homophobia etc, are by now thrown around so casually and lazily and spitefully that even old lefties like me are starting to say: hang on a moment, perhaps there has been an over-correction here.

    The prospect of a Trump victory is deeply alarming to me – but it would also be a slap in the face to a lot of people who, frankly, need a slap in the face, and I can’t deny that I can see the appeal.

  • Abucs

    My claim was the pretty well established depravity of the media and political systems and how communications are challenging that.

    Regarding your comment of electoral fraud : The links do not establish proof with regards to the charge of voter fraud involving the people involved in the video.

    Whether someone is a Christian or not (and i haven’t even looked) has nothing to do with my post.

  • grumpy oul man

    no your claim was about electoral fraud and you offered evidence that was not evidence.and of course you wont make a comment on wither the nut job i mentioned is a christian or not (you don’t seem to have a problem saying Hitler was not a Christian) because he regularly attacks the pope and the catholic church (like you said Hitler did) and he has formed his own church (like Hitler did) now he also is part of the christian right so you wont comment and he proves your notions to be quite wrong.
    Now i say again learn some real history not these propagandists you seem to think have the truth.

  • Abucs

    I’m sorry, you’re not even in the same Solar System now. Don’t correspond with me again.

  • Abucs

    Alex Jones is largely comedy guys. Come on.

    Please look at the Jones’ video again with the knowledge that this is largely comedy (like WWF) while challenging the left. It is completely over the top in mimicking and criticising the Left..The joke is the Left can’t see it.

    I mean really. Do you think the people who watch Alex Jones think Hillary is possessed? It’s entertainment!

    I am convinced that most people listen to Alex Jones not because he makes sense but that he comically lampoons (often outrageously and completely unfairly) those on the political Left who have been, and continue to be, a protected species in the traditional media. He mimics the Leftist media with his completely outrageous bias and brainwashing, but turns it against them. It is quite funny when you look at it in this way But of course those on the left don’t think of themselves as being outrageous or biased, so fail to see the irony

    The ‘new’ media is helping to reshape communities and that will continue on all sides. Some future groups might well end up in a Jonestown scenario, although my prediction is that it will not be from groups such as Jones’. Perhaps those who entered into the traditional media and promoted a bias there will reflect on their role in any future tragedy?

    btw, i think the novelty of Jones approach will wear thin pretty quickly. There are many more people doing the same job in a more reasoned and less comically dramatic way which will be the future.

  • grumpy oul man

    I do admit the question i asked as to wither you thought the man was a christain or not was of the, have you stopped beating your wife! answer yes or no type, but it is where your “logic” brought us.
    I know it can be painful when you are cornered by your own claims but insread of running away you could look upon this as a learning experience.
    Could i suggest (as i have in the past) that you maybe read some books by proper historians and perhaps a book or two on politics, there are several for beginers that would be helpful for you.
    I would suggest something that explains the differences inside the left ( from communist to social democrat) you seem to believe that they are all the same.
    Perhaps something on progressive relegion, the present Pope has written some fine work on this.
    Finally, science it is a big area but there is a lot of work out there for beginners to read.
    We will talk soon have a nice day.

Join us for the Slugger End of Year Review Show, Wed 14th Dec 2016
Get your tickets