Neither liberty, equality, nor fraternity

Imagine a woman on a beach on a hot day, perhaps your mother, sister, girlfriend or wife. She doesn’t take the sun well so she doesn’t wear a bathing suit and covers her head with a cloth and her shoulders with a shawl while she sleeps. Imagine four police officers approach her, waken her up, demand she uncover her head and shoulders, then fine her for not exposing enough flesh. That’s close to what happened on a French beach yesterday.

 

I love France. I go there two or three times a year, have French friends and am proud to call it my second home. Like most people, I was horrified at the sheer savagery of the Paris and Nice attacks, to name but a few of the atrocities that are becoming too frequent to remember. France is a dear friend going through hell and I feel for her, deeply, but today, France is in the news again, mercifully not for another massacre, but for its reaction to it.

Those of us in Northern Ireland of a certain age can remember the anger caused by atrocities. If I lived in Nice I would probably have been incandescent with rage after July 14th when over eighty people were mown down by a maniac in a lorry, for reasons no sane person can understand. But the point is, I don’t live in Nice, I have the luxury of distance and the hindsight of our own experience of political violence to see what happened in Nice yesterday was not only wrong but stupid. That concept is itself, very French. Fouché, Napoleon’s chief of police is reported to have said of his boss’ assassination of the Duc d’Enghien, ‘C’est pire qu’un crime, c’est une faute.’ (It’s worse than a crime, it’s a blunder). For if France truly wants to consign Islamic-inspired terrorism to the dustbin of history it needs to have its Muslim citizens on its side and that will not happen by publically humiliating Muslim women.

Let me be clear. I believe religion does more harm than good and the repression of women in certain Islamic countries, chiefly Saudi Arabia, which treats women like chattel, is slavery in all but name and the great unspoken crime of our age. No one should be coerced by the state, family or societal pressure to cover themselves head to toe or wear a particular costume, but by the same token, if someone chooses to cover their head and body or wear a particular costume they should have the freedom to do so.

Terrorism thrives on reaction. After an outrage the public demands that something must be done and the government, with an eye on the opinion polls, duly obliges, but what is done in haste and anger is rarely wise. Repressive legislation and heavy-handed responses, might make people feel better but they ultimately feed the dragon they are intended to slay. Imagine again, this time not a woman on a beach but an angry young man in one of the high-rise Arab ghettos on the fringes of Paris, where disaffection, crime and unemployment are the order of the day. The young man feels like an Arab in France and a Frenchman in Algeria and that the dice are loaded against him. Belonging nowhere, he feels drawn to the world of radical Islam and Jihad. What impact is a Muslim women being forced to take off clothing by police likely to have on him? Silly local laws do not justify murder but they feed the murderous thoughts of those seeking justification to do it.

To put things in perspective, the police in Nice were enforcing local ordinances, not the laws of the French state, but these local laws will soon come under the scrutiny of higher courts in the near future and the world will be watching. France, you are angry, you are hurt, you are living in fear,  mais ce qui se passait à Nice hier était ni la liberté , la fraternité , ni l’égalité .

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  • grumpy oul man

    LOL, “dragging my offspring into it” you asked a question, a pretty stupid one, (care to explain the point of it apart from some silly personal attack).
    You covered a lot of things (actually claimed not covered) and i am awaiting proof.
    So you are so desperate to change the subject you have moved onto climate change. “but the religion of Scientism prevents debate of so called settled subjects such as GW.”
    Why this need to claim that those who disagree with you have a “religion” that blinds them to the “facts”.
    Must you see a conspiracy theory in everything.
    Claiming that Scientists prevent discussion on a subject, and insist you accept some sort of Dogma is claiming a conspiracy exists.
    it seems that you are as uniformed about the nature of scientific methodology as you are about history and Islam.
    We will stick to the subject of this thread, i will happily debate the science behind climate change on a thread about climate change.
    On a minor point about climate change and false teaching this guy must be top of your list for false prophets,

    http://www.catholicclimatecovenant.org/encyclical.

    So how about we stick to the subject of the post and quit the BS.

  • grumpy oul man

    Sorry Thomas it was that wonderfully unfocused poster Patrick mac who made that stupid statement.
    So your security reasons are not about weapons or bombs being smuggled under loose clothing.
    Glad to see some sensibility at last.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    “We are living in a mature democratic system, the kind of things that happened under National Socialism simply could not happen here, after all this is England”….

    “After All this is England”, by Robert Mullar:

    http://numinousbookofreview.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/after-all-this-is-england-by-robert.html

  • grumpy oul man

    Seann,
    If i had the money i would happily pay for your book to be published.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Thank you for that vote of confidence, GOM, (appropriately Gladstone’s “nickname” initials from the 1880s, “Grand Old Man”, I note). Luckily I have one book out already, another important biography commissioned by a publisher and my agent is working hard to get two others away, so its just a matter of time for my devastating critiques to appear, I hope.

    Robert Mullar’s very “dark” book is well worth a read, but with its paperback editions touching £40.00 and rising, I’d recommend the library.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Scientists can of course be wrong, but in a world where the seas are turning into “plastic bag soup” and the increasingly extreme climate shifts are there for anyone without a paper bag over their heads to see…………simply because you perceive it as leftist does not even begin to suggest that it is untrue!

    And in a world where even the producers are speaking about “peak stuff” and 1% posess most of the earths wealth (and rising), “capitalism bashing” has become something of a moral duty for those of us who have noticed that “they” (the banksters, etc) are coming for what any of us may still be holding in our “private” bank accounts at this moment. Google “bail ins” and “GATCA”….

  • Sir Rantsalot

    Sadly, John is correct about Muslims being imported into Europe to destroy the western type of society. Most people are unaware of this because they get all their information from MSM, and not the independent media online.

  • Thomas Barber

    Thank you Grumpy for your kind apology and yes we are now reading from the same page. Im not racist nor sectarian and I do acknowledge your point that you cant label the many for the actions of the few ie all Muslims. Im also well aware that whats happening in the Middle East and Europe today is being manufactured by the very people who claim to be defending our democratic rights, values and ways of life, the same people control the military the media and the governments. I also acknowledge that the very fabric of our existence is also under threat, not by refugees or migrants but by falling birth rates and whether we accept that reality because it is reality or not we need those same refugees and migrants whatever their religion to boost those declining birth rates else our own empires will fall before our eyes and that includes America. However we have rules and laws that we all must abide by, those rules are there for reasons like security and the enforcement of the law and whats the point in having security cameras everywhere if we could all hide our identity by wearing a Burka. I have no problems with a Burkini or a Hijab however I think a line must be drawn at a Burka.

  • Sir Rantsalot

    The burkini ban is a bad idea. It will not stop Muslims coming to France. It will only trick people into feeling sorry for them, as poor Samuel T has. Only a matter of weeks ago the most recent atrocity by a Muslim immigrant murdered many under the wheels of a lorry. The only way to make Europe safe again, is to relocate all the immigrants that have come here in the last few years, back to their own country asap. Then militarily create safe areas in their country and provide to them there.

  • grumpy oul man

    Thomas,

    Not really a lot to disagree with there except the Burka thing.
    To ban it will only give those who are attempting to radicalize young Muslims more ammunition , and while i don’t approve of the Idea that a man owns a women and she may only show her face to her husband it is her call (in Europe anyway) to wear one or not.

  • Thomas Barber

    “To ban it will only give those who are attempting to radicalize young Muslims more ammunition”

    Unfortunately that’s the circle that has to be squared Grumpy and whilst I believe people should at all times be free to practice and express their religion whatever religion that may be the safety and security of everyone in our society should at all times be paramount. Muslims must realise the fundamental tenet of western law enforcement is the ability to identify all its citizens who use the public highways and byways, services and amenities.

  • Cosmo

    as long as we maintain the separation of Church and State, and keep the religiously fervent of all persuasians under the rule of law, we are all fine.

  • Cosmo

    this sounds to be the ‘advice’ of a rancid segregationist. i wonder what ‘pure’ race he comes from.

  • Cosmo

    well, the supreme court shaped up with its decision that the ban is illegal, but Corsica is refusing to comply..!

  • grumpy oul man

    Thomas, i am sorry but a ban on the Burka would be unproductive regarding security.
    if such a ban creates more terrorists then how can it make us safer.

  • Sir Rantsalot

    Nobody is talking about race. The reality is the current immigration is from countries hostile to the west and from a religion that teaches to kill non Muslims. Add to that an ISIS campaign to turn as many Muslims as possible towards the killing part of their religion, and to attack westerners. Any intelligent person can see that if millions of these people are brought into Europe, many will attack Europeans. Which is exactly what is happening. Are you so blind that you cant see this?
    Do you know that the rich middle eastern countries are not taking any of these immigrants? Its because they know that jihad ISIS terror comes with them.
    Any comment on reality? Not just listing isims and thinking you have made a great moral stand about something !

  • Cosmo

    Why don’t you face some reality and look at facts.

    Earlier, you ranted on about sexual attacks, by immigrants, in Europe. (yea aware, right-wing/Trump supporters are making a great deal out of the horrid events in NY Eve, in Germany, in their efforts to demonise immigrants, and by default, Muslims.)

    The United States National Institutes of Health reports that in the US, 97,000 college students experience date rape or alcohol-related sexual assault. NINETY SEVENTY THOUSANDS…..That sounds a minimum of 2,500 a college week. Hey, and that’s the educated classes. Where’s your panic, here? (Another face, or as you might say reality, is that Muslims represent just 1% of the US population.). So, there’s an awful lot of western students who can’t hold their drink or their shock-jock urges back.

    Meanwhile, yes, yes ISIS intention (using the useful idiots of the European and US Far Right) is to reduce social cohesion by raising Islamaphobic feelings.

  • Thomas Barber

    Grumpy yes a ban would be repressive but what else can the government and law enforcement agencies do to identify its citizens if those same citizens refuse to abide by the laws of the country that gives them safe haven from the terror they are supposedly running from. They are simply trying to ensure the safety and well being of all citizens.

  • grumpy oul man

    Nobody is talking about race. The reality is the current immigration is
    from countries hostile to the west and from a religion that teaches to
    kill non Muslims
    What total BS, i have lived among Muslims for more than a few years and never noticed this dogma about killing non Muslims.
    ISIS has killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims, the people coming here are trying to escape the terror of ISIS.
    Any intelligent person will see you statements as nothing more than uninformed racist nonsense.
    By rich middle eastern countries you mean Saudi Arabia well perhaps if you understood the darling of the west links to ISIS you might understand why they are not taking refugees, their clients caused the refugee problem.
    Could i suggest that you stop frequenting far right websites for your “facts” and maybe use a bit of common sense.

  • grumpy oul man

    independent media online.
    read websites that Donald trump would approve of, which have no obligation to stick to the facts.

  • Abucs

    Well there’s lots of points being made, one obvious one is to repeat that the context of my reply to Croiteir (that you jumped in on) was in relation to the crusades, not anything to do with Coptic Ra worshippers.

  • Abucs

    Setting the historical record straight is never whitewashing. If you are going to interrupt the conversation to accuse me of historical whitewashing then intellectually, at an absolute minimum, you need to point to at least one thing i said to Croiteir that is historically incorrect.

  • grumpy oul man

    But unless the government knows who is misbehaving and has names then they don’t know.
    Surely as a Irishman you realize the oppressing people in the interests of “national security” just does not work.
    No attack by Isis in Europe has involved anybody wearing a burka, any ban on Burka will actually cause more problems than it solves. Isis and it fellow travelers will just use it as a example of the oppressive west and could well recruit more young men and women to its cause.
    How many times in this country was national security run out as the reason for restricting personal liberty’s and correct me if i am wrong but did these moves not end up with more young people joining terrorist groups!

  • Thomas Barber

    Thanks for the reply Grumpy. Yes as an Irish republican I do know how repressive laws in the interests of national security cause further problems but Irish republicans would claim that Britain had no right to impose laws in Ireland however if it was the Irish government who imposed those laws they could do little but accept their implementation because that would be the will of the Irish people. I do accept your claim that at this moment in time there is no evidence to show that terrorists have used Burka’s to conceal their identities while they carried out terrorist attacks in Europe that however is irrelevant in this conversation as I have said above law enforcement agencies and Im sure other government agencies need to be able to identify all its citizens who use public services, frequent public places etc, how can the Police or legal system even operate if all women wore Burka’s never mind the possibility of criminals or terrorists taking advantage of the opportunity to enter banks, shops public places etc wearing Burkas. Muslims need to deal with those realities.

  • grumpy oul man

    if it was the Irish government who imposed those laws they could do
    little but accept their implementation because that would be the will of
    the Irish people.
    wow well i think you maybe know different republicans than me, the ones i know would take no S*%t from either the Irish government,the British or the Vatican.

  • Cosmo

    we need to veer towards pragmatism, rather than uptight principle (fundamentalism) in our responses, otherwise we destroy our social cohesion.
    So far, the West is patently making a pigs ear of the ‘war on terror’, and I think that is because the uptight ( so called principled) types ran the foreign policy.
    In some countries, quite a significantly high number of theologically trained religious people work in counter terrorism analysis, which might skew perceptions on how to identify violent terrorists too.

  • Thomas Barber

    Whatever you believe Grumpy its a fact that “ALL” republican groups accept the legitimacy of the Irish government and its law enforcement agencies ie the Garda and Defence forces. They also all accept the will of the Irish people, perhaps you might know different but I’d like you to prove that if you could.

    I cant understand why you cannot accept how chaotic it would be for Western law enforcement agencies and those arms of the government who deal with the public on a daily basis if everyone was able to conceal their identities.

  • grumpy oul man

    simply not true about all republicans accepting the southern state and those who do (like everybody else) acceptance is based on the government behaving itself.
    I am Irish and it is my Duty as a Irishman to stand up to the state when it does wrong not blindly follow as you claim.
    And if the day comes when we let our government do what it wants then i will be ashamed to be Irish.
    on your second point, the Burka has been around for quite a while and Chaos does not rule.
    and of course not everyone conceals their identity,
    A women in a burka can show her face to any women (Garda, custom official or shop assistant) so identity is easily checked, you over egg your case, reminding me of the stereotypes pushed by the most despicable of unionist politicians who wished to ban all of Irish culture because “their all at it and you cant be to careful.
    I would have thought that someone from a culture which has suffered from stereotyping such as ours would be more aware of the dangers.

  • Cosmo

    Everyone, including the vehemently religious, should be subject to law. It took quite a time for the Catholic church bishops to accede to this, when it came to child abuse, as you know.
    No religious fundamentalists can be allowed to disobey the law. I dont think banning the burkha should be counter as unlawful, but certainly in any very sensitive location, for everyone’s safety, people must be able to be thoroughly searched. In that sense, I am sympathetic to your views. I was quite amazed to see after a recent flight, only recently it is being signalled that certain knives in hand luggage are banned! and I had been worried about shampoo!

  • Thomas Barber

    Grumpy this is my second attempt to reply to your above post the first simply disappeared.

    I asked to you to prove which republican group did not recognise the legitimacy of the Irish government and its state forces or the will of the Irish people, you did not do that, your own opinion does not count. I do however accept your point that the behaviour of the state towards its citizens is dependent on that loyalty.

    Yes Burkas have been around for a long time but not in this country and I’ve already proved to you above that they have been used to carry out acts of terrorism resulting in massive loss of life but that wasn’t the only reason why I believe they should be banned in public I said they could be used by criminals for all sorts of reasons also and unless we have female doorstaff in all shops, bars, banks, supermarkets, public places etc checking the identity and gender of all those wearing Burkas businesses and citizens would be at risk.

    Emotional blackmail is a retrograde step in this discussion Grumpy its neither appropriate nor relevant when you consider the opportunities that would be open for those who would take advantage of being legally able to walk around concealing ones identity. We have been through over 40 years of conflict and turmoil and I believe you’ve been around enough corners to know that there are those who will take advantage of any opportunity to either enrich their pockets or further their cause.

  • Thomas Barber

    Yes Cosmo everyone should be subject to the law and while I do understand Grumpys viewpoint these are dangerous times we live in and the world seems to be getting smaller and until such times that become safer and peaceful regressive measures need to be taken. Western law enforcement agencies use facial recognition software with the massive network of security cameras around cities and roads to monitor dangerous individuals and groups it also aids in the implementation of the law and having the ability to conceal ones identity renders that crucial ability useless.

  • grumpy oul man

    OK firstly are you claiming that the dissident groups have accepted the Irish state and agreed to abide by its rules? if you are (and it seems you are) then you are very wrong.

    Here is a few other times you have been wrong,

    There are literally hundreds of Muslim no-go areas for police in
    European countries like Sweden/France/Germany that have sprung up over
    the past decade where Sharia law is imposed and that number is rising.

    when challenged you produced a website notorious for making thing up which claimed that a German government report stated this but the site does not name the report or tell us where it may be found.

    Now this one,

    do we adjust and accept their laws and traditions, should polygamy be as
    equal as same sex marriage, female circumcision be as normal as male
    circumcision, Sharia law be accepted as lawful in European countries.
    It had to be pointed out to you that female circumcision is a west African practice and Muslims and Christians from that region practice it, it is not in the Koran.

    So you will excuse me if i do not accept your predictions about the harm Burkas can do since you obviously have no idea WTF you are talking about.

  • Thomas Barber

    Grumpy you are now resorting to man playing and insults obviously you cannot accept the fact that just because you lived among Muslims that doesn’t make you an expert on Muslim affairs anymore than someone standing in a garage holding a spanner makes them a mechanic. I posted one link regarding Muslim no go areas and female circumcision just like I posted evidence of how Burkas were used to murder scores of innocent people another fact you refused to accept and I could have posted more. You claimed female circumcision was an African tradition yet it is practiced around the world and including Russia – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/outrage-in-russia-after-religious-leaders-back-female-genital-mu/

    Yes I would stand by my claims that the overwhelming majority of republican groups apart from those criminal gangs masquerading as republicans do accept the legitimacy of the Irish government and its state forces to act on behalf of the Irish people. Are you under the illusion that dissident republicans are also opposed to the legitimacy of the 26 county government and its state forces and that once they have forced the British into the sea they will turn their attention and their resources against the 26 counties.

  • grumpy oul man

    No living among muslims does not make me a expert but believing the rascist nonsence on right wing websites does not make you a expert.
    You have come off with some complete and total bs.
    The whole burka thing is not onlt rascist but would only make more terrorists how could that make us safer.
    The idea that a ll republicians have acceptep the sourhern goverment os simply not true. Your female circumsion thing, straight out of the big book of lies about muslims .no living among muslims does not make me a expeet but i know untruths when i hear it.
    Why dont you go onto a disadent website and ask them if they reconise the goverment of the republic.
    I am sick and tired of friends being insulted by those who believe everything some rightwing nutjob says about them.
    Could i suggest that you maybe read the koran and maybe stay away from the Trump crowd you might learn something.

  • grumpy oul man

    And it make a joke of a consistent Christian morality, how can you believe that gods rules change over time and at the same time believe that god is unchanging!

  • Thomas Barber

    Grumpy for a start I never said all republicans accepted the legitimacy of the southern state I said the majority apart from those criminals masquerading as republicans Im sure you know who I mean, those so called republicans who have murdered lots of their own comrades but have yet to engage their so called British enemies, in reality they are gangsters and drug dealers – Are these the dissident republicans you are talking about. Just because someone comments on a website that doesn’t make them or their views republican. Once again could you point out these dissident republican groups who you claim do not recognise the legitimacy of the 26 county government to act and speak on behalf of the Irish people.

    Re the Koran and female circumcision no FGM is not proscribed in the Koran it is nonetheless widely practiced within Muslim communities. One of the ten commandments of Christianity say thou shall not kill but you and I both know that is ignored by many who would proclaim to be Christians. And yes I do have a copy of the Koran given to me by a preacher as a gift when myself and a friend went to his aid when his he and his stall were attacked in Belfast by loyalist knuckledraggers.

    Claiming im a racist because I believe that having the ability to walk around public places and public areas concealing ones identity is dangerous especially in these difficult times is a threat to everyones security and a practice that should be banned in public is an attempt by you to drag this conversation down to your own inability to accept reality that your position and perspective on this matter would be the minority viewpoint on this island.

  • Cosmo

    Dear Thomas
    You may be interested to read all these observations about the facts of this case, referred to you the YouTube..

    http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-freed-child-rapist-laughed-about-it/

  • grumpy oul man

    Muslims must realise the fundamental tenet of western law enforcement
    is the ability to identify all its citizens who use the public highways
    and byways, services and amenities.
    Really, the fundamental tent of western law is that the government must watch us at all times,
    Strange and here is me thinking it was ,innocent till proven guilty!
    could you perhaps point us towards were this fundamental concept is laid down im law!

  • grumpy oul man

    Thomas Barber
    grumpy oul man
    3 hours ago

    Grumpy for a start I never said all republicans accepted the
    legitimacy of the southern state I said the majority apart from those criminals masquerading as republicans

    But did say it, here it is your own words
    Thomas Barber, sorry my mistake this is the edited version which you changed when i pointed out your original post was nonsense, to see what you really wrote see the post below.

    grumpy oul man

    21 hours ago

    Whatever you believe Grumpy its a fact that “ALL” republican groups accept the legitimacy of the Irish government

    Perhaps you should read your copy of the Koran before you start making false claims about Muslim dogma.

  • grumpy oul man

    A strange thing Thomas, when you edit something on a post that someone has replied to, the original post remains on the Disqus profile of the person who replied.
    so here are your original words and not the ones you edited,

    Thomas Barber

    21 hours ago

    Whatever you believe Grumpy its a fact that “ALL” republican groups
    accept the legitimacy of the Irish government and its law enforcement
    agencies ie the Garda and Defence forces.

    Naughty boy, you nearly got away with it, dam those pesky profiles

  • grumpy oul man

    Did you read the link you posted both a christian priest and a Muslim call for female circumcision, and could i have some proof that female circumcision is widely practiced in Islam,
    India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Saudi, Egypt, Syria, or turkey (that’s by far most of the Muslim world) do not practice or permit female circumcision (illegal in all those countries )
    so some proof please.
    and after your little bit of dishonesty with the post about republicans i will check anything you present as a fact.
    Ps, don’t believe you about the preacher thing, why would a Christian preacher be handing out Korans and Muslims don’t do street evangelicalism

  • Thomas Barber

    Grumpy now your going on a rant yet you still cant seem to point out any republican group by name either in the 6 or 26 counties who openly proclaim that they are opposed to the 26 county government and its legitimate right to act and speak on behalf of the Irish people. Yes I did say all republicans and I do still stand by that opinion I did however add in those gangsters and drug dealers masquerading as republicans because although they claim to be republicans they are clearly not.

    This conversation was about Burkas now you’ve changed direction using an unrelated matter as a stick in which to beat myself about a subject we are supposed to be conversing about which is the wearing of a burka.

    Yes the fundamental concept of Western law enforcement is the ability to identify all its citizens, actions and generally whats happening around public spaces shopping centers roads, streets etc etc, thats why we have cameras all around us for all kinds of reasons not necessarily related to the violation of Muslim rights as you seem to believe but for the safety and security of everyone on this island or wherever and whether you like it or not we are constantly watched and monitored 24 hours a day 7 days a week that is reality.

    Being found guilty and convicted in a Diplock court myself I do understand the concept of being innocent until proven guilty but I know from experience that thats BS in todays world.

  • grumpy oul man

    you only added in the gangster line when i pointed out you were very wrong, anybody can go onto my profile and see what you said.
    I changed no subject i only pointed out that you tried to change what you said after the event.
    So you wish to live in a police state where big brother is watching us at all times, perhaps you could point us towards something constitutional or legal which proves this fundamental of law enforcement and i await proof of your absurd claim that female circumcision is common throughout the Islamic world.

  • Patrick Mac

    Why are liberals so fond of the word ‘diversity’ ?

  • Cosmo

    and, why are alt-righties, educated ( ha) in the US, such blinking dim- wits ?

  • grumpy oul man

    Diversity is good. The more diversity in any system or group means a greater ability to adapt to changing circumstances.
    More difference means a greater range of abilities. In biology for example the greater diversity inside a species or ecosystem means that the species or system is more likely to survive and flourish.
    One the other hand a lack of diversity means that a species or system has a smaller range of ability therefore has less chance of overcoming obstacles.
    For instance the dangers to a under diversed species is normally defined as inbreeding,i assume you are aware of the health issues found among inbred animals or people.
    Economy’s with greater diversity can react to market changes better than those without it.
    It bring skills and experience to a workforce and also improves our lives .
    Different food, music, literature. Art ideas all these things improve our life.
    It just common sense really. viva le difference !
    What do you have against it.

  • grumpy oul man

    Have you noticed the remarkable similarity between Abucs and Patrick Mac, the same world view, same language structure, the same need to stereotype anybody who is different from them.

  • grumpy oul man

    Patrick i answer your question below, would there be any chance of you showing some proof for your wild claims made in previous posts.
    Only you do make some big claims and never seem to offer any proof!

  • grumpy oul man

    Oh, a classic thought experiment (Albert Einstein a liberal, was a great believer in diversity loved these, help him come up with E=MC2 ) think what the world would be like if everyone was like the people we see at Donald Trump rallies, would we have the wheel by now, not likely.

  • Cosmo

    GOM: of course, you do realise that Fundamentalists like PM and ABuC do not relate to rational discourse, with proofs and counter-proofs. They live in a world of emotional assertion, grievance and limited experience, which does not include challenging their pre-conceptions, crude ignorance, or indeed their ‘better’s’ who they think reflect authenticity, like Trump, Palin etc.
    It makes me shudder to think if they are in any occupation, which requires making judgements, or managing staff.

  • Patrick Mac

    Sorry, I think I misspelled the word, I should have typed
    DIEversity. Sincere apologies.

  • grumpy oul man

    Oh dear, not able to answer questions, deals in inaccurate stereotypes, makes wild claims without being able to back them up, and resorts to petty (and really not funny ) personal attacks.
    Do not bother to apologize sir it is not your fault, there is no cure for stupid and you are as you are.
    To expect a apology from you would be like expecting a apology from a monkey for throwing its scat.
    Just checked the Dictionary (that’s us trendy liberals for you we check facts before we use them) and there is no word “DIEversity” and i don’t think i ever used it, which part of you thought this was witty or smart?

  • Patrick Mac

    Aww, bleeding heart.
    If you think you will be receiving some apology for asserting what is obviously the truth in a truth-starved world, you’re mistaken. You liberals are always demanding something, yet
    your contributions to the world are minimal, at best.
    Ok, I’ll address your requests:
    The here and now is what really matters, not some event(s) in the past. Many people have done many things to many other people throughout history, all of it terrible, yes. War and conflict is a human weakness after all. However, a line needs to be drawn and someone, or some group, or some religion, or some system had to make the modern world and that has clearly been the West, Christendom, Caucasians, Europeans, call them what you will.
    You mentioned many groups, dates, times, numbers of dead, etc, etc. The most extreme form of leftism – Communism, has wiped out tens of millions, you’ve made no mention of it. You’re ramblings about DIEversity are, quite frankly, embarrassing. Have you never stopped to ponder that there are many who do not agree them (but that makes them racist in your narrow world view, right?). The famous boxer Muhammad Ali was against the mixing of the races, was he a racist.
    TBH with you, I’m predicting a severe backlash in Western society against the garbage people like you spout as its about time you were called out for it.

  • grumpy oul man

    again a lot of meaninless rhetoric but minus any facts,
    How about i list the evils done by the christain west and you list the evils done by the lefties,
    we shall see who has the longer list,
    where shall we start, the American slave trade or the french revolution!

  • grumpy oul man

    You’re ramblings about DIEversity are, quite frankly, embarrassing,
    you must have me confused i have never even heard the word DIEversity till you made it up! so how could i ramble about it.
    but out of interest, if you are referring to my description of diversity (different spelling see) then please point out where it is wrong.
    of course you will be true to form and not give a answer that makes any sense.

  • Cosmo

    Patrick Mac…. “The here and now is what really matters, not some event(s) in the past.”
    Ha Ha Ha. Gotcha – I predicted you’d be saying the equivalent of ” We are where we are’, before long. It’s what the dim-wits do.
    By the way, didn’t the World Champion Muhammad Ali, say “I ain’t got no quarrel with the Viet Cong’, before he got slung into prison by the US govt ( for refusing to fight in the obscene Vietnam war) thus, in effect, their just trying to ruin his career.

  • Patrick Mac

    Venezuela looks like a lot of fun, yes?, no?

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