Post Brexit View of a re- politicized Nationalist

It is a long time since I have contributed anything to this site. I was once a daily reader, commenter and active participant, but the gradually over the last few years for various reasons I have become quite sickened by Northern Ireland Politics, I became disinterested and apathetic towards politics and to be honest focused my energy on interests elsewhere.

The result of the EU referendum has changed that. I sat up all night watching the results come in from across England and Scotland. Results that will undoubtedly change my and my children’s futures. Each result declared for leave came like a punch in the gut. The sickening feeling of utter helplessness as England ignored the experts, the logic and voted for a smoke and mirror show that was promised to end immigration and “give them their country back.” Whatever that is supposed to mean. I am not going to go into the rights and wrongs of the argument that has been explained in great detail elsewhere however…

For years middle class moderate nationalists have been content there lot within a post good Friday Agreement Northern Ireland. Their main desires of Peace, stability, equal opportunities in the work place, proper access to health care, access to education and state recondition of their right to be Irish, in the cultural and aspirational sense were largely catered for.

The visibility and relevance of the border has been eroded to almost invisibility over the last number of years. There has been the comfort blanket of knowing that both jurisdictions on this island were in fact member of a larger institution the EU An overarching body that insured that everything from industrial standards, to agricultural policy were essentially the same across this island. That had pushed the constitutional issue on this Island from top priority to aspirational nice to have.

That comfort blanket is now gone and the prospect of living the rest of our lives in a rump UK governed by successive tory governments after the scots have managed to get things together and leave is looming hard and ominous. I for one do not want my future to be beholden to political decisions that have more to do with internal squabbles within the tory party than my or this countries interests. Almost everyone I have talked to in the South Down and South Armagh area over the weekend is feeling very similar. Angry, frustrated and re-politicised.

Whatever about the prospect of a border poll I think that this has awakened the sleeping Nationalist middle class in The north and if we as Nationalists can’t finally start getting our act together, getting the vote out and coming up with a cohesive workable way forward to achieve an alternative to this catastrophe we deserve what we get.

  • grumpy oul man

    you seem to have a vision of borders being lines of fences and gun towers but the fact is that in most of the world ( north-south Korea being a obvious exception) borders posts are on roads or river crossing and and mostly a line on a map everywhere else.
    But you are right the border between North and South will be soft, to harden it would mean renegotiating the Anglo Irish agreement.
    The Hard border will be at the British Ports and Airports, you wont have to show your passport to get to Croke but you will have to show it to get to Ibrox.

  • Twilight of the Prods

    Found it. Under my nose. short but on the button

    .

    Ulster Unionist leader Mike Nesbitt said there were two audiences that particularly needed to be listened to in Northern Ireland.

    “Young people, because a lot of them are very angry at this result,” he said.

    “Also nationalists. There are quite a number of nationalists who over recent years have been relaxed about their aspiration for a united Ireland and have seen it
    as an aspiration, rather than something they want to act to make a reality, and they are very angry.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36633939
    He’s not wrong.

  • grumpy oul man

    So no erosion of the border, tell me when were you last stopped at a border checkpoint, see any customs posts anywhere, because i have noticed a complete absence of all of these lately.
    do you remember when a parking ticket or a bit of down south didn’t matter now it has to be paid.
    the fact is that Britain cannot have a open border with the EU ( unless it agrees to freedom of movement and trade in which case what was the point of the whole referendum in the first place ) so what it will do is make a deal with Europe with this place given some sort of dual nationality status (and Judging by the rush of applications for Irish passports in Unionist areas and Ian Jr’s tweets could well be OK with Unionists) so soft border Derry/Donegall hard border Belfast/Liverpool.

  • Jarl Ulfreksfjordr

    Do I take it then that should the Scottish Parliament vote for another independence referendum you would be more comfortable with the entire UK’s participation in the vote?

    Perhaps you merely have an issue with the people a political decision directly effects being permitted to express an opinion on it? After all on another thread you were cheerleading for an entire group of people to “cease to exist”.

    A fine way to get rid of some inconvenient folks who might not vote the way you do, the b@st@rds.

  • Jollyraj

    “to abandon people north of the new border doesn’t sit well with me”

    And yet trapping unionists within a UI doesn’t trouble you at all.

  • Katyusha

    Where on earth did I say that, Jolly? Of course it does.

    And I never even mentioned a UI in my post. We were talking about repartition, no?

    The only way a UI is going to come about is if significant parts of the previously Unionist communities votes for it, in which case they will no longer be unionists. In which case, anyone being “trapped” in a modern, liberal republic will be a clear minority.

    We are currently being pulled out of the EU against the wishes of 48% of those who voted. They do not wish to be stuck outside the EU, but that’s democracy. The only two options are to go with the majority opinion of the whole country, or the majority opinion of different regions piece-by-piece, and I’m against breaking Northern Ireland into any more pieces than it has been already.

  • Thought Criminal

    I have to laugh at those in uproar at the absolutely awful task of having to show a passport – you ALREADY have to show your passport travelling south on the Dublin airport bus. Weak-minded types like Ghobsmacht only understand appeasement and only strengthen Irish Nationalism with every word of absolute tosh that he utters. The more difference between north and south the better and the less likely a so-called “United Ireland” becomes.

  • Thought Criminal

    Absolute nonsense. Nationalism will erode anyway as it has been politically defeated. Appeasing it more keeps it alive.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Ok, lay out why you think so, I’m genuinely interested.

    I’ve noticed many of my ‘nationalist’ friends over the years lose interest in nationalism as they’ve went from being part of something that was treated as a fifth column to something that is now accepted as part of the set up (officially ) and things like a barely existent border and Irish citizenship have facilitated this.

    If you find this not to be the case of your ordinary everyday Joe (as opposed to foamy mouthed republicans which obviously don’t count in this context) then please expand.

  • grumpy oul man

    Now Now Jarl firstly let us deal with this nonsense about me being a cheerleader for an entire people not to exist, nonsense I stated that Loyalism not Loyalists would be doing us ac favor if it ceased to exist.
    Can you see the difference, Loyalism is a violent criminal tendency, Loyalists are people i neither call for support any daft idea of wiping them out.
    If i called for the mafia or pedophile rings to cease to exist would your paranoia make you add 2 + 2 and come up with 37 and assume i wanted them all gassed?

    As for the Scottish poll thing you should really read things before you comment on them, I made a observation on how unionists are flexible on the whole democracy thing.
    At no point did i express approval either way on wither or not the people on the bigger island should have a say on a Border poll ,
    I could have used Drumcree ,Sunningdale,the AiA protests or indeed the flag protests as examples of Unionist opposing (often violently) democratic decisions when it suits.
    I hope that cleared things up and accusing someone of planing genocide is best done after checking your facts, it is a serious thing and makes you look very foolish when you do it for no good reason.

  • grumpy oul man

    I believe that both republicans and nationalists agreed to accept the will of the people in a border poll. and it is a strange concept that a Border Poll would be a one off.
    I believe that the agreement signed in regards to border polls includes the fact that we are not limited to one,
    It would be very strange if for example the largest party at Stormont was Nationalist who ran with a policy of Uniting Ireland would not call for and get a border poll.
    Anything else would be a perversion of democracy

  • eamoncorbett

    You cant fool people like that , every passport has “place of residence” on it .

  • grumpy oul man

    It Hard to see where UKIP will go after this, the only real policy’s the party has are
    1/ get us out of the EU,
    2/ get all those people not like me out of my country,
    If the Brexit things goes as they promised it would they have got all they asked for and have no function.
    It after Britain leaves Europe but wants to trade with Europe then there will be no change in things and they will look like failures.
    Add to this the embarrassment as Nigel’s masters make him stand outside the door while they meet over port and cigars to sort things out.
    with the vote in NI and Scotland its safe to say that they will never be anything more and a rump party in those two places and in England they will never be a challenge to the conservative party.

    .

  • Chingford Man

    “It Hard to see where UKIP will go after this”

  • chrisjones2

    Which can all be met by counter action and we end up tired unhappy and nowhere

    So what. Put it to the electorate. I wish you success

  • chrisjones2

    Says who?

  • chrisjones2

    Yeah yeah

  • chrisjones2

    “via incredibly treacherous countryside”

    What treacherous countryside do you refer to?

  • chrisjones2

    Doh…Turkey and Greece are as near to hostilities as one can reasonably get

  • chrisjones2

    My apologies…for Kev
    #

  • chrisjones2

    No it was just opened about 15- 20 years ago in Fermanagh – post 1995

  • Jollyraj

    “And it is a strange concept that a Border Poll would be a one off.”

    Indeed so. Win or lose, it should be revisited with a fresh referendum every seventh year for at least a half a century.

  • Jollyraj

    Could equally argue we should have held out for Donegal. I’ve always felt a population swap should have been pressed, along with land grants as incentive on both sides. We didn’t. It wasn’t. The border is where it is. Ireland is not part of Brexit, we are – so it really isn’t their problem.

  • Jollyraj

    “I was very careful to note that it would be unionists who would need to agree to this.”

    We don’t ‘need’ to agree to it. And if we didn’t. Hypothetically, if there were a border poll, and the UI’ers lost, could you guarantee that they’d finally shut up about it? Forgive the frankness, but unionists have been fairly clear for nearly a century now that we have no interest in joining Ireland – and the GFA demonstrated that Ireland proper no longer has any selfish or strategic interest in us.

    Time to let it go?

  • Karl

    Reading the way you put your points across could drive the ‘reasonableness’ from anyone.
    I hope it all works out for you.

  • grumpy oul man

    well if would indeed be a weird sort of vote that would tie people into a result for eternity.

    Issues are revisited as the situation changes its called democracy,

  • grumpy oul man

    good answer, well thought out, loaded with facts always a pleasure to debate with the well informed.

  • grumpy oul man

    sorry i cant get a link to ” Dreamer”

  • grumpy oul man

    Certainly if unionists elected a majority in the north say 7 years after a united Ireland, then they could call a referendum to rejoin England, of course on that occasion you would need to poll England to see if it would accept NI back.
    that also is called Democracy.

  • grumpy oul man

    did you miss the referendum where England and Wales voted to leave the UK, Britain in the EU is a very different Britain than one outside the EU or what was the point of the exercise.
    This is a major change in the status quo.

  • Chingford Man

    Aren’t computers so smart these days. They’ll be punctuating your posts next.

  • grumpy oul man

    “you already have to show your passport on the airport bus” you book a seat on the bus and show your passport as ID, it is not a customs or border check.
    AG argues that in the last few elections nationalists have turned out in fewer numbers (percentage wise ) than Unionists,
    He argues that this is because they are content with the status quo, this has had the happy result (in my opinion at least) of reducing the amount of SF receives, less votes means less seats.
    Now if you change the status quo with something like hardening the border it could well have the effect of mobilizing the nationalist vote which will mean more votes for SF and more seats for SF not my favored result.
    As a unionist i would have thought that a nationalist electorate which could not be bothered to vote would be good news for you.

  • grumpy oul man

    I always find my grammar is attacked by those who cant put together a argument. a mild form of man playing.
    and that is the second time you have repeated that little insult, getting boring perhaps you could try something new!

  • grumpy oul man

    would it not be a wonderful world if everybody just agreed to the facts as you see them.
    The Scots may not play along,we voted against leaving and a awful lot of people may well regret their leaving vote now it appears that the leave campaign lied about the money.
    its fantasy politics to think that this is over, Britain is now more divided than ever before this will run long and deep and the Britain of 20 years from now will be a very different place.

  • grumpy oul man

    I dint think anybody has a plan, apart from the SNP they seem to have hit the grounding.

  • Jarl Ulfreksfjordr

    …..except, except, the discussion had been about ‘loyalists’ not ‘loyalism’. Indeed in your first reply to me you used “loyalists”. It was then when I replied to you that you morphed into using “Loyalism”. You did not take that opportunity to clarify what exactly you meant. I simply characterised your ambiguity as I saw it.

    On referendums: you introduced Paisley’s attitude to a UK-wide ‘border poll’. Since no such thing ever happened (I discount the 1918 General Election when the majority voted for pro-union parties – I don’t edit the past to put votes in the ballot about things that were not being voted on, unlike some I could mention); what has Paisley and a non-existent border poll got to do with “democracy”?

    It has nothing in common with incidents such as the reactions to Suningdale, or BCC’s flag flying policies.

    And now I see you are a mental health expert. You have diagnosed “paranoia”. All through the medium of the Internet, impressive work. I think I’m done with you Doctor.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Feel free to put up some sort of argument to back up your case.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Grumpy

    Thanks for listening.

    Thought Criminal seemingly espouses the ‘Smash SF’ style of rhetoric, which, along with the ‘No Surrender’ school of thought(lessness) has been a disaster and failure at every turn, from the Anti Home Rule movement (which led to a full blown republic eventually) to Drumcree to Fleggergeddon at city hall.

    I’d love to get into a reasoned debate with people of this mindset someday but it’s next to impossible, some of them don’t even understand what they’re doing when they say “nationalists/Catholics won’t ever support NI” whilst somehow supporting Rory McIlroy at the golf.
    It’s amazing to behold.

    Anyhoo, let us see…

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    PS You only SOMETIMES have to show your passport travelling south on the airport bus and even less so when in a car (if ever, I’ve never had to do it when driving).
    Careful about that ‘tosh’ now…

  • Katyusha

    AMG’s brand of unionism has a much more nuanced and astute view of NI politics than any of this divisive rhetoric. It’s also the brand of unionism that is likely to be the most successful at preserving the union. And instead of strengthening Irish nationalism, it does the opposite. If nationalists are content with their position in NI it pulls the teeth from any hardline republican movement.

    Conversely, reinstating border posts is only going to provide a visible target for various dissident headbangers, which is the last thing we should be doing.

    We’ve more-or-less hit on a centre ground that works for the majority of people in NI. We’d do well not to reverse this trend and start dividing people once again.

  • Chingford Man

    Then don’t make a jibe unless you want one sent back.

  • Jollyraj

    But what if, as now with those calling for a border poll, they didn’t have a majority? Could they still call for a poll, and would they be entitled to have one, even without a majority?

  • Jollyraj

    Likewise, I’m sure.

  • Tochais Siorai

    The border was never as open as it is now, there were always customs posts, unapproved roads, concession roads etc which had nothing to do with the troubles.

  • grumpy oul man

    well that is made more complicated by the majority voting to remain in the EU..
    However i dont think the Shinners will make any serious call for a border poll for a few years, they know that as this place starts to suffer from leaving the EU then that will be their moment,

  • grumpy oul man

    sorry which Jibe, you put up a post with the meaningless point that it can only go up or some such thing, i pointed out that dreamer would suit better.
    You like a dreamer have made fantasy claims and refused to back them up, replying only with a sad little jibe (and not even original), so i ask you again (feel free if you cant answer to attack my grammar i will understand) .
    1/ can you give us a number regarding how much extra money will be available when we leave the EU (you and Farage seemed quite certain it was 350 million a week but now Nigel says that was a mistake)
    2/what evidence do you have that we and not the tory heartlands will get some.
    3/what platform will UKIP now stand on since A/ they got all they wanted, or B/they have been hoodwinked by the Tories.

    I look forward to your answers.

  • Tochais Siorai

    ‘Could equally argue we should have held out for Donegal….’

    Except that both Fermanagh and Donegal had nationalist majorities, huge in the latter. But sure I suppose Donegal could have been just another area with a nationalist majority to tag on in the Unionist attempt to grab as big a land mass as possible.

  • grumpy oul man

    well read my post i say loyalism not loyalists, if you dont accept that then please cut and paste any comment i have made to the contrary.
    Am there was a border poll in the early seventies but i was not referring to that i, i was referring to comments made by Paisley when questioned about hie attitude to the big islanders voting in a border poll here.
    Finally i dont need to be a expert in mental to spot paranoia in someone who interprets a condemnation of a collection of criminal gangs as a call for a final solution.
    Out of interest do you think the loyalist gangs should be allowed to carry on with thier activities?

  • Tochais Siorai

    Some people don’t get out much, methinks.

  • Tochais Siorai

    It must be the spacesuit.

  • grumpy oul man

    Boy you do love to come up with the same old tired out stereotypes, So every nationalist who doesn’t want to be bothered with border checkpoints when hes heading to Dublin or Donegall is either a smuggler or a terrorist!
    Do you ever sit down and figure out on which side of the Solution/ Problem line your on.

  • Brendan Heading

    you ALREADY have to show your passport travelling south on the Dublin airport bus.

    This is a lie. No European citizen is required to show their passport anywhere within the UK or Ireland, or anywhere within the European Union.

    On the other hand you may be asked to identify yourself by a police officer who has reasonable grounds for believing that you are present in the country. You are free to refuse to identify yourself, and you cannot be detained unless the officer has reasonable grounds to suspect that the law is being broken.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Gone all quiet there thought criminal… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwwY9y6O3hw

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    There was some unionist big-wig whose name escapes me who suggested a more surgical severance eg Sth Armagh & Sth Fermanagh and bits of Tyrone and Down would go to Eire and East Donegal would go to NI.
    I’m sure there were other snippets too.
    Imagine if we had listened to him…

  • Jollyraj

    “did you miss the referendum where England and Wales voted to leave the UK”

    I think I did miss that one. When was that?

  • Jollyraj

    “The Hard border will be at the British Ports and Airports”

    Belfast, you say.

  • grumpy oul man

    Well yes you will have to pass through some sort of customs at Belfast to travel to England. The point is that the customs etc will be between us and britain not us and the republic.

  • grumpy oul man

    Sorry that should have read. Left the EU.

  • grumpy oul man

    AND HOW WILL YOU CARRY OUT THIS ACT OF BRAVADO?

  • Abucs

    I think you need to fill in the blanks so that your question can be responded to.

  • Sir Rantsalot

    JR, It looks like you have fallen for the MSM mind control campaign. Sooo scared of being independent !!! 🙂 Also, you don’t seem to understand the nature of the EU political union agenda. Its not a good thing for any of the people still under its control.
    If you are an Irish nationalist, then you should be aware of the outrage at the water charges and all the other taxes being imposed on the southern people. This is being done to comply with what the EU is ordering Ireland to do. You should also be aware of the growing anti EU sentiment in the south. With 8 other EU countries looking like they will leave the EU and around 30 calls for different referendums, the EU political union is finished. People power is winning.
    Why would an Irish nationalist in NI want to join the ROI at this time?

  • Sir Rantsalot

    I told you so !! 🙂

    EU army on the way. How would Nationalists like to be part of the EU Army?

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684549/EU-cannot-rely-NATO-needs-new-defence-policy-chief

  • grumpy oul man

    will did you not respond to a dare to take a EU passport of someone, I just wondered how you would do it!

  • Paddy Reilly

    True. But you seem not to have noticed that the refugees are no longer being allowed through.

  • Simian Droog
  • Abucs

    Firstly, i responded to a post from murdockp which didn’t mention anything about passports.

    Secondly, my response was a one word question of clarification.

    I can’t see where this can be construed to mean that i am claiming a personal “act of bavado” on my part to take Murdockp’s European passport off him.

    Whether Murdockp has a right to a European passport has little to do with me. It is a matter of his personal allegiance and laws of the European Union.