Packing guide for Northern Ireland fans heading to #Euro2016

Here ya go, courtesy of those thoughtful folk at BBC NI… 

  • Gingray

    Why is that?

    Its a great spot, particularly the Canal Court of a Saturday night.

    Have you been on a night out to any towns outside of the Great Belfast/North Down region? Plenty to see!

  • woodkerne

    In a culture such as ours, defined by fundamental division and dissensus in civil society, where absence of institutions in common is marked and where giving and taking offence has correspondingly been raised to the status of an art form, it is disappointing to note the lack of sensitivity demonstrated by the playing of God Save the Queen in the preliminaries to the Poland game. It is surely obvious to all but the most ardent that this subaltern choice of ‘national’ anthem is alienating and gives offence to anti- and non-unionist fans who have nonetheless elected to identify with and follow the team (as well as being perplexing outside observers). Am I misremembering or on past occasions other, less provocative tunes have been used? On the model of the PSNI, would it too much to expect a symbolically unifying, revisionist motif? ‘Danny Boy’ (the Londonderry Air) or ‘The Mountains of Mourne’, for example, would better fit the bill.

  • Alan N/Ards

    I have read a number of reports about the violence, and all of them have said that NI and Polish fans (socializing together) were attacked by “French Ultra’s”. A number of these fans (from both countries) stood side by side and defended themselves or retaliated if you would like to use that term. One of them was hit with an iron bar and is in hospital.

    ” Did the Nice police prevent them from returning to their accommodation the way they came? Was their traditional route blocked?” Pathetic!

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “That is an unbelieveable suggestion. How about I go on the interweb and find someone posting ‘I do the bouncy to celebrate/commemorate the death of Robert Hamill and the kicking of others’. I’ll leave you to see how that is an insane suggestion.”

    I’ll save ye the bother: http://dothebouncy.com/main/threads/i-bet-you-didnt-know-why-we-do-the-bouncy.40693/

    you want me to explain how you are ignorant? AMG, you are better than this.

    Yes, for I potentially have a terrifying blindspot that needs addressing and it could hobble my chances in life;

    for example if I, someone who has worked inside Ibrox park (1 1/2 years), just outside Ibrox Park (selling both Celtic and Rangers paraphernalia at different points), worked outside Celtic Park (selling stuff), worked in various bars across Glasgow for years and had an array of Celtic mates who would immediately pass on snippets of Rangers or NI foolishness was oblivious to any sectarian associations of the bouncey (prior to 2007) then there’s something alarmingly wrong with me.

    The other options are:

    a/ I’m lying

    b/ It’s made-up nonsense

    “If you are saying, categorically, that NI fans have not, on any occasion, done the bouncey as some form of disgusting chant related to the death of Robert Hamill then I am afraid you’re kidding yourself, and Nats and observers aren’t that feckless to think otherwise.”

    So the whole premise of proving you right is to find a couple of d*ckheads on youtube doing a bad version of the bouncey?

    There’s sectarian versions of ‘Drunken Sailor’, sectarian versions of traffic lights (Larkhall, Lanarkshire) and if one is given to believing in foundationless hysteria then there’s sectarian versions of Subway sandwich shops (again, Larkhall).

    But common sense has intervened to see these things as isolated incidents in the minority, but seemingly the same can’t be applied to the bouncey despite the equally flimsy foundations.

    “Oh dear Lord, how about you re-read what I wrote before. But, again, to pretend that shouting ‘let’s all do the bouncy’ from NI fans during the period when Robert Hamill was stomped to death, and to think that from a particular part of the NI fans was mere innocent ‘bants’ is either naive on your part or wilful ignorance. You don’t think a chant can change it’s meaning? Do you not think that some fans who were particularly sectarian mightn’t have thought this as ironic seeing how Robert Hamill died? Honestly, you just see this as Nats looking for any excuse to have a go?”

    So you’re telling me that a chant can change it’s meaning but somehow said chant is automatically fossillised in a particularly grisly era thereby inhibiting its potential for further morphology?

    So the young fellas who are doing the bouncey in Nice (with the permission of the French ambassador http://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/northern-ireland-fans-can-the-11416269) who were 10 or so when Hamil was murdered have to accept the default set mode of nationalists choosing despite the chant existing for decades?

    “‘An example of Wolf-crying begetting a wolf.’ – utter BS. But hey, you continue with your attempt at post-facto justification.

    The chant pre-dates Hamil’s murder.
    I have never heard of anyone associating the bouncey with Hamil’s murder other than nationalists on the interweb.

    If some young fellas these days do see it as a Hamil related thing then to my mind it comes from nationalists telling them so as I can see little evidence of loyalists having encouraged during that era. Genuinely.

    And I’d happily state so if I did.
    I’ve a whole raft of blogs of my own and on LAD regarding the less palatable aspects of unionism and loyalism et al which attest to this.


    ‘If it ain’t about Hamil then it ain’t about Hamil.’ – and we know that BS but I can see why you would want to try and show this up as ‘a lie’, as it doesn’t reflect well at all on NI fans.”
    If loyalists, NI fans, Rangers fans or Orangemen or whomever do something dumb to show themselves up then I’m all for them getting ‘the treatment’.
    However, all I’m hearing is some mud slinging with flimsy foundations.

    The lad’s are having a bit of crack, I’d wager that most of them think that whomever did the chanting that you suggested back in the day are complete bell-ends and just want to get on with celebrating something that comes about in a very very blue moon. (NOTE: blue has no Rangers affiliations in this context)

  • Alan N/Ards

    As someone who has complained about the use of the Tricolour and the republican anthem at the all island Ireland rugger games, then I have accept it’s a flag that many people find offensive. I don’t have a problem saying that. I long for the day that a new flag and anthem, for NI, comes about.

    Yes, both the IFA and IRFU have done a great job in promoting other flags at the games but there are still to many Tricolours and NI flags at their respective games.

    BTW, I have no problem with the ROI football team using their flag and anthem at their games as it’s not my team.

    I often wonder, when I hear calls for an all Ireland football team, as how they will get a flag and anthem, that both unionist and nationalist football fans will feel that they can embrace?

  • Alan N/Ards

    Probably not! Of course she could prove me wrong. BTW, that wasn’t a bad result for the republic tonight.
    I have heard of one NI fan who has sewn a ROI badge unto his NI shirt. He hoping that both Irish teams do well. I’m not sure if he’s in France but he’s rooting for both teams. Possibly a first.

    There was an interesting article in The Guardian about Newry and the Euro’s from both sets of supporters in the town/city. One ROI supporter is hoping NI doesn’t do well, so that he can have the bragging rights in work.

  • Kev Hughes

    c) wilful ignorance, especially when it’s consistently highlighted to you? I’m gonna go with (c).

    ‘So you’re telling me that a chant can change it’s meaning but somehow said chant is automatically fossillised in a particularly grisly era thereby inhibiting its potential for further morphology?’

    Of bloody course it can, especially if it morphs into something gruesome like it did. How about the notion that words and symbols can easily change their meanings but once they morph into something particularly negative then guess what, they fossilise into something they may never change from? Examples, the word ‘faggot’ and the ‘Roman salute’ all spring to mind.

    ‘So the young fellas who are doing the bouncey in Nice (with the permission of the French ambassador http://www.belfastlive.co.uk/s… who were 10 or so when Hamil was murdered have to accept the default set mode of nationalists choosing despite the chant existing for decades?’

    And the chant morphed into something nefarious around1997, or are you trying to say absolutely none of the NI fans do or did the bouncy regarding the death of Robert Hamill? I know the answer to this one, you blamed Nats for that one when you said ‘maybe even some of the younger lads do actually believe it and either don’t care or (alarmingly) embrace it.’

    ‘The chant pre-dates Hamil’s murder.
    I have never heard of anyone associating the bouncey with Hamil’s murder other than nationalists’ – what like myself? From north Armagh? Taunted by the Protestant boys when coming home with the bouncy? But that’s just a lie from me, so please, do continue with your bouncy lads. Well aware the chant predates his death, but it took on a special meaning after.

  • submariner

    I often wonder, when I hear calls for an all Ireland football team, as how they will get a flag and anthem, that both unionist and nationalist football fans will feel that they can embrace?

    Heres a suggestion, flag could be the IFA flag as it was the original association. Anthem could be Fields of Athenry or similar

  • Alan N/Ards

    I suppose many of the locals ( who support the all Ireland rugby team) don’t see that flag as their national flag. Of course many locals do see it as their national flag. Is the IRFU flag not a sensible compromise?

  • Alan N/Ards

    No problem with that.

    The next problem is where the home games would be played. Belfast then Dublin etc. They used to do that for Ireland rugby games and then the bigger country reneged on it, and if the Irish President attends, then the Irish national anthem has to be played. But hey, this is a conversation for another day.

    Good luck to all the home nations (of which I include the ROI).

  • submariner

    I would be happy to have games played in Belfast if it guaranteed an all Ireland team

  • Katyusha

    You’re (maybe) missing the joke about the Jackeens, jolly.

  • Jollyraj

    May be. I’d be the first to admit I don’t know much about Irish culture. What joke am I missing?

  • Jollyraj

    Fair point 🙂

  • Katyusha

    Dublin GAA, and Dubs in general, are called Jackeens, because of their pro-British history and stories of them flying the union jack in particular.
    The Dubs, of course, are the original Irish unionists.

    Here:
    http://de.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jackeen
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Brit

    Look at how in the article and the picture, West Britain is actually just Dublin.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    It’s hardly wilful ignorance if I’m happy enough to pick up on other sectarian things that often fly under the radar.

    It’s simply an anecdotal fact of mine that despite all my exposure to such elements I only ever came across this association of the bouncey and sectarianism from nationalists stating that it is indeed so.

    You have said yourself that it is a minority of people, I have pointed out my ignorance of it full stop thereby giving an idea of how small a minority, furthermore we even have an(inarticulate) insight into how many Rangers fans despise the very notion (and this is a group who are seldom embarrassed by such things).

    All you’ve done is quote an episode from ’97 and your youth to serve as a crystallisation of the bouncey as something inextricably linked to sectarianism.

    As I said before I can give sectarian examples of The Drunken Sailor and the sectarian perceptions of a franchised sandwich shop and traffic control apparatus.

    However, common sense prohibits me from labelling all three of these as sectarian whereas I’m sure the rumour mill will continue and the oft trumpeted low-standard of ‘proof’ will be wheeled-out “wee Davie telt us an he’s Rangers fan!” and furthermore I loathe to think of the consequences for NI if minority incidents can be elevated in status by those who have seen them in the rarer unfavourable light, people likeWillie Frazer would be like a wino locked in an off-licence what with the opportunity to unfairly castigate nationalist culture and interests.

  • Gingray

    Any unified flag would, I think, need to embrace the concept of the 4 provinces in some form, tho that may not be enough for Northern Unionists. Hockey and rugby both do that well.

    New flag and anthem for NI prob will not happen as the people who complain most about the existing ones are the same people who oppose anything that solidify NI as its own place.

  • Kev Hughes

    AMG, you’re someone I respect on here and who isn’t a troll, that’s a big deal. But your anecdotal point along the lines of ‘I worked at Ibrox and never came across this therefore it is a bunch of Nats making this up’ is akin to someone saying ‘i had a sandwich today therefore there is no such thing as world hunger’. I think we can appreciate that that is a fallacy (the last one) but it serves to highlight a point that while you were fortunate not to have heard this, it does not mean it is not so.

    ‘All you’ve done is quote an episode from ’97 and your youth to serve as a crystallisation of the bouncey as something inextricably linked to sectarianism.’ – let me be crystal clear, it’s not ‘an episode’, it was repeated behaviour over a quite significant period in the area where Robert Hamill was murdered. And hey presto, it becomes forever linked to sectarianism when NI fans do it.

    You and I both know that NI fans have chanted the bouncy fully aware of what it became to mean, as you even said, some probably still do and/or don’t care what it means. It is a shame that a minority have done this, but there you go, it’s done. And for the NI team to become inclusive and reach out to Nats of all kinds it is going to need its fans to give a few things up, the bouncy included.

  • Jollyraj

    Interesting. One wonders what saved the ‘jackeens’ from the IRA goons during the troubles, when unionists in NI were being massacred in the border areas. Their religion?

  • Katyusha

    Unionism had receded in Dublin long before our sordid little conflict!

    The unionist tradition in Dublin has different roots from Ulster Unionism (being mostly upper class and Anglican), and after the War of Independence, most of them either got on with running the country (through politics or the Imperial Civil Service), or simply got on with their lives outside politics, those that hadn’t emigrated or retired in GB. They didn’t involve themselves in the fighting that took place either south or north of the border, and indeed the union flag was still flying in places like Dun Laoghaire during the civil war, while the Irish Army and the IRA were blowing each other up over partition and the role of the Crown. They’d probably have considered armed insurrection as barbaric and beneath them.

    Politically, after the Irish Unionist Alliance had disbanded, most of them fell in behind the pro-Treaty, non-republican Cumann na nGaedheal, and today would support its successor, Fine Gael – conservative, Christian and pro-partition.

    They may have had a pretty important role behind the scenes, such as in the drafting of the Ireland Act which ensured that Ireland would never be treated as a foreign nation under British law, and securing the right of the Irish people to live, work and vote in the UK – which is why the Common Travel Area persists to this day and Irish people can vote in UK elections. For all the division in NI, the truth is the RoI and the UK have never truly separated.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Kev

    My point about me working at Ibrox et al is that if someone with their ear to the ground failed to pick up on such things then such things are potentially not as widespread as you would have us believe.

    Again, I only ever hear of this Hamil attachment from nationalists on the internet (Dr Jude Collins’ web site is another example).

    So, in your eyes it came to mean something and you’ve crystallised it in that period.

    Even though you KNOW that the vast vast majority (if any fans) do it as something malignant you still can’t bring yourself to think “maybe things have changed”.

    The fact of the matter is HASN’T come to mean what you said it has, you and some others carry this association tightly and don’t want to let go of it despite the changes.

    IF a unionist adopted that attitude for any kind of nationalist association they’d be called a flegger and either ignored, ridiculed or put up on LAD, and rightly so.

    Sorry Kev, there’s many many things that NI fans do to annoy me (such as using the Ulster Flag and using GSTQ as the anthem) but I’d have no qualms about doing the bouncey (as daft as it is) if I were there.

    I don’t think we’re gonna see eye to eye on this either lad.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    I’d also like to know why the IFA never answer emails or letters regarding this topic…