If Brexit happens, Ireland may be united for the purpose of entering Great Britain

In the Brexit propaganda battle the hare is now being raised not of imposing controls on the Irish border but of geographically more convenient checks between the island or Ireland and the island of Great Britain. While the Irish Times quotes “official sources” in Dublin bringing up the issue again, the piece invokes a report by the House of Commons’ Northern Ireland Committee that discusses it.

The Commons committee warned in a report entitled Northern Ireland and the EU Referendum that imposing controls along the land Border, which is crossed by up to 30,000 commuters a day, would cause considerable disruption.

“An alternative solution might be to strengthen the border between the island of Ireland and the British mainland. There are fewer crossing points to enforce and it would be less disruptive as there are already checks in place,” the report says.

This solution has obvious appeal in Dublin. But it raises uncomfortable memories  of the Prevention of Terrorism Act of 1974 which introduced exclusion orders which barred anyone suspected of terrorist involvement from either part of Ireland from GB. The measure was anathema to Unionists but they were powerless to prevent it. There was a practical logic to the orders, given the open land border and the concentration of undesirables in the North.. Could a similar logic apply in the event of Brexit?

The Irish Times report implies that it might have British backing. But this is not what the actual report says.( para 79) It’s worth quoting the relevant passage.

Some airlines flying between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK already subject passengers to identity checks and these could be made more robust and extended to relevant ports such as Holyhead and Stranraer with relative ease. The UUP told us they had been told by the Government that it did not envisage policing the border with the Republic and that the Government’s preferred solution would be to put in place a more robust system of checks at relevant ports and airports on the mainland. Mike Nesbitt told us: “The Prime Minister indicated pretty clearly that it would not be on the physical separation of Northern Ireland from the Republic but it is more likely to be at Stranraer, Cairnryan, Heathrow, Gatwick, our ports and our airports.”
.

Sharing a border policy with the Republic of Ireland would negate the need to impose a hard border between Northern Ireland and the South or with the mainland. There is already a considerable amount of shared policy in this area. In addition to the CTA, since 2014, citizens of China and India can enter the UK and Republic of Ireland with a single visa. However, the Republic’s policy is constrained by its EU membership.
80.There must be doubts about the extent to which, in the event of a Brexit, the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic could be effectively policed and the disruption to those who cross the border for work or study would be considerable.However, imposing security checks for those travelling between parts of the UK would also be highly undesirable. In the event of a Brexit, an arrangement that maintains a soft land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic but which does not see restrictions imposed on travel within the UK would need to be a priority.

Is isn’t clear what such an “ arrangement “ could be – other than checks at GB ports and airports of entry. From experience this would mean setting up control points and a separate queue manned by the UK Border Force for people coming in from NI and the Republic where they’d be  required to show their passports and with customs channels behind the points which are currently for non EU or EEA passengers. This would resemble what happens on entry to the UK  from the Schengen area. It’s no great inconvenience  but you can see why the Leave side plays it down.  It  would be bound to dent support for Brexit among unionists.

 

 

, , , , ,

  • chrisjones2

    This would be a huge boon to smugglers moving contraband and avoiding tariffs on goodsentering the EU – which is why Ireland will be forced by them to do something to enforce the border

  • Dan

    Then the fun will start

  • Oriel27

    In the interest of peace, continued economic security of the border counties and indeed the Island, any reintroduction of a physical border would be a disaster for Ireland 32. It makes perfect sense for security and practical reasons to treat Ireland as One, and impose checks only at ports and airports.
    I cross the border everyday so i know what im talking about.

  • Thomas Barber

    A Brexit would be manna from heaven for republicans it would change the political landscape in terms of opportunities to move the united Ireland project forward and if border controls went up once more, it would not only go against the spirit of the GFA but once again the British government will be seen as denying the overwhelming majority of the Irish peoples wish to remain in Europe.

  • Roy Reilly-Robertson

    This really is worthwhile giving serious consideration to. Unexpected effective reunification in many ways following the rule of unexpected consequences. Illustrating very clearly the enormous differences between policy out put and policy outcomes. EU Decampers have to be clear what the changes really might be as opposed to what they want them to be.

  • Skibo

    This sounds very much like little Englander raising the drawbridge, not only on the English channel but also the Irish sea.

  • chrisjones2

    So they have all voted have they?

  • chrisjones2

    Look at Switzerland’s border with France

    No checks on exit from Switzerland

    Checks entering Switzerland but mainly to make sure you have bought a Vignette to use your car on Swiss roads

  • NMS

    However we residents of Ireland, who never go to GB, might far prefer Ireland to properly join the EU by signing up to Schengen. If the UK leaves, there has to be a “hard” border for commercial purposes. It will be there for all purposes.

  • NMS

    I can’t agree, because the vast majority of people on the Southern side of the Border don’t want Northern Ireland and its myriad problems.

  • Oriel27

    Presuming you are a unionist, i simply cannot get why the DUP party want a Brexit, clearly when its not in NI’s economic interest’s to do so. Any border controls no matter how mild, will undoubtedly impact on businesses. The unionist farmer and business community are clearly in favour of staying in.

  • NMS

    I accept that a hard border would create problems. (There were 85.7M litres of milk crossed the border, going South for processing in April alone.) This is a trade unlikely to survive a UKexit. The problem is that leaving the EU is not like selecting off an “a la carte” menu.

    Treating a piece of a non EU country as part of the EU is not on. Should such treatment be extended to Kalliningrad (Konigsberg), part of the Russian State surrounded by EU members?

    Why do people on this island always expect others to make exceptions for them?

  • NMS

    Exactly. Stephen Bush has a very good piece in the New Statesman about the Odd Bunch http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/05/brexit-odd-squad

  • NMS

    Very well summed up. The position taken up by DUP is extremely strange. I can only assume that Mrs. Foster did so to keep the Custom man’s son Nigel quiet.

  • Jollyraj

    NI need to unite the island for Ireland to enter the UK. It could simply join as another sister nation in it’s own right – if the Irish people wish to do so, and if it is approved by England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. That way, 50 years in the future if Ireland wanted to secede again there’d be no need of the hassle of repartitioning.

  • Declan Doyle

    Polls consistently say otherwise

  • Oriel27

    Its very strange indeed, it appears like – ‘what they do in mainland Britian, we do here’. Thats alright if NI was on a par of economic strength as England, but they are not. NI is somewhat very poor. I work for a company that do 60% of our business in the South and we employ over 100. We have lorries going down to Dublin everyday. Now, any stoppage, hold up etc… will cause problems to our businesses.

    NI, had a point 100 years ago when it was the economic heartland of this island, they had a very strong economic reason for staying in the UK that time. Any home rule threat was rightly resisted in their eyes, as Belfast at that time had the Ship building the linen industries etc. Dublin had nothing compared to Belfast.
    But 100 years on, things have gone completely the other way, yes all with the help of EU. Now any person with economic sense would know even staying in the UK with the pound and corporation tax rate, it would be more favorable to be part of the South – but leave that to another day…

  • NMS

    They don’t. The most comprehensive poll done was the joint BBC/RTÉ one, which showed the vast majority ambivalent at best and strongly opposed when likely cost was mentioned.

    The issue of course may come up post UKexit as much of the basis of GFA assumed the UK remaining part of the EU. A referendum on Article 2 may be required as it would give rights to those born in Northern Ireland greater that EU nationals.

  • NMS

    But the vast majority of those resident in NI wish to remain part of the UK & I don’t see any desire for those of us on the
    Southern side of the Border to be hobbled with NI.

    Customs paperwork will making cross border transactions troublesome and problematic. You are completely correct. Levying of customs duties and all of the paperwork that existed prior to the Single European Act will return and many businesses in South will give NI suppliers the choice of opening up Irish operations and doing the paperwork etc., or will get other suppliers. But, these are primarily issues for those in Northern Ireland to deal with.

    Personally, I favour closer integration with the EU, including joining Schengen. The UK can paddle its own canoe.

  • Korhomme

    The Common Travel Area is an informal agreement between the UK and the RoI; citizens of the UK and the RoI don’t need visas for travel between the two countries. Other nationals, certainly those from outside the EU, do technically need visas. Only a passport or an ID card, AFAIK, includes a person’s nationality. So, Tomasz the Polish plumber might have problems getting from Dublin to England to watch the footie.

    So, no matter if the border is on land, or at the point of arrival from Ireland, there could be lots of problems. (If there is a Brexit, and NI citizens need a passport for internal travel in the UK, will the government provide one for free?)

    Anyway, the assumption is that an overall vote for Brexit means Brexit for all. What then if Scotland, Wales, NI (and possibly London) vote to Remain? What sort of can of worms will this open? What might Marlene do about it?

  • Korhomme

    On the motorway from Germany to Basel, you have a choice of lanes; one of these is if you already have a Vignette, another is if you have to buy one.

    OTOH, a ridiculous piece of EU bureaucracy has just surfaced. If, as an EU citizen, you hire a car in Switzerland which is registered in Switzerland, you cannot legally drive it in France, Germany etc. You may if the car is registered in France or Germany; or if you are a non-EU citizen. Makes absolutely no sense.

  • Declan Doyle

    In that poll 66% said they would like to see a UI in their lifetime. Pretty clear. Other polls have consistantly backed this number. There is unlikely to be a brexit so the issue is unlikely to come up anytime soon.

  • Skibo

    The majority of parties in the South are Republican parties of differing shades of green but all hold a United Ireland as their goal.

  • Thomas Barber

    You favour closer integration and would you also favour global corporations having the power to sue the Irish government in secret courts for the loss of any profits due to protests from Irish citizens concerning for eg Fracking or would you also agree with a European Army, a European Police force, the TTIP, the Pooling of Soverignty ?

  • Thomas Barber

    Its pretty clear that the majority of people in Ireland support Ireland being in the EU unless of course you have evidence otherwise.

    Do you ?

  • Skibo

    JR the option was available pre 1921 but Unionism decided to dump all Unionists outside the wee six.

  • NotNowJohnny

    I have asked a number of unionists why they support Brexit and the ‘reasons’ they have put forward have included the following. (Note that these are not my views)

    1. The return of customs posts at the Irish border would help prevent fuel smuggling
    2. The U.K. would regain its sovereignty
    3. Uk money could be used by us to fund public services in the uk rather that being used to support weak Eastern European economies.
    4. The U.K. would get to make its own laws.
    5. The U.K. Government would get to decide who comes to live in the uk
    6. The U.K. could negotiate better trade deals with the rest of the world

  • Roger

    “Other nationals, certainly those from outside the EU, do technically need visas.”

    I would have omitted the word “technically” here. The so called Common Travel Area would more appropriately described as a Double Visa Area for visa required nationals, usually those wishing to visit Ireland given Ireland does not have as good connectivity as the UK.

    For example, a Filipino travelling to Ireland (there are no direct flights) and who transits through the UK, would need a UK transit visa plus an Irish visa.

    In contrast, if the Filipino were transiting to any destination outside the UK and Ireland, the Filipino national would require no transit visa. Hence, my suggestion: “Double Visa Zone” or “DVZ” instead of CTA.

  • Skibo

    1. Customs posts were on the border before and smuggling was as rife. The only thing to do to stop smuggling is address taxation on an island basis.
    2. This probably comes from the fact that UK legal cases can be overturned by the European Court of Justice. There should always be a higher level of justice not linked to the state.
    3. The building up of weaker economies increases the market for UK goods. If the same logic was used by Westminster, NI support would be cut drastically.
    4. If you are referring to red tape, you will find that the UK actually increases the affect of EU red tape.
    If the UK wants to trade with the EU after Brexit, they will still have to follow such legislation.
    5. If the UK votes for Brexit, they will have to negotiate trade deals. These, more than likely, will open the way for movement of labour both ways and nothing will have changed.
    6. Better trade deals are normally negotiated from position of strength. One of a group of 27 vs one only does not make sense.

  • Chingford Man

    That’s why every shade of Irish nationalism is supporting Remain? Better get a logic reboot.

  • Chingford Man

    I remember once taking the tram from central Geneva to the suburbs where I crossed the border into France and took the cable car up Mont Saleve for the afternoon. No checks at all.

  • Chingford Man

    “Levying of customs duties and all of the paperwork that existed prior to the Single European Act will return…”

    That assumes that the newly self-governing UK and the EU will not strike a trade deal to allow commerce to proceed without undue impediment. It’s not a sensible assumption.

  • Thomas Barber

    Indeed – The very point I was making. But in reality republicans while publically supporting staying in Europe privately they are hoping for a Brexit.

  • Korhomme

    You’re correct; but for us indigenes visas are an irrelevance.

    Slugger had a piece about this a few years ago:

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/12/24/the-common-travel-area-is-only-for-the-benefit-of-irish-citizens-and-british-nationals/

  • hgreen

    Let’s be honest, it’s only number 5 that they, and you, really care about.

  • hgreen

    Is it really strange? The DUP gets its oxygen from hating things. First they hated nationalists now its time to hate foreigners.

  • Skibo

    Agreed but if NI votes Brexit then nothing is gained. Wonder how the SOS will react if she loses Brexit and has to come back to NI who voted overwhelmingly to remain.

  • Skibo

    Anyone examining how trade agreements are set up will understand that such legislation is not set up over-night and may take decades. Look at how long they are talking about TTIP.

  • Chingford Man

    Um, you don’t need trade agreements in order to trade. If you think the independent UK and the EU are going to take decades to sort out how their businesses can keep trading without impediment then you must be having a laugh.

  • Skibo

    And how would the UK government work this without accepting EU regulations, pay into the EU budget and accept free movement of workers. If you have all that, why vote to leave?

  • Chingford Man

    Here’s what’s going to happen if the UK votes to leave. We have a 2 year period in which to negotiate the terms under which we all trade. We will emerge with a deal that suits our own interests and without paying a king’s ransom to do business.

  • Skibo

    Aye right, like you have alot of friends in Europe, that’s why you want to leave.
    One big issue will be the position London has as a banking capitol. I think that will be very much in danger post Brexit.

  • Chingford Man
  • Skibo
  • NotNowJohnny

    Your honesty appears to be about as reliable as your understanding. How could I have made it clearer so that even you can understand that these are not my views?

  • aquifer

    Yep strange is as strange does. Moving the effective security border to Stranraer and Antrim Airport would be outwardly rational but politically suicidal, affirming Ulster’s ‘otherness’.

    Taking UKIP’s ‘Short’ parliamentary funding money in return for backing Brexit might be clever tin moneybox accounting, but if we we are out because of a few DUP votes the political Union is heading for insolvency. Tory Brexiteers get a cold damp tax haven and we get the cuts, or citizen Corbyn gives democratic effect to the British wish to get rid of us.

  • Chingford Man

    We heard the same claims about companies moving if Britain didn’t enter the Euro. It came to nothing then and it will come to nothing now.

  • Chingford Man

    I hate dumb comments.

  • Chingford Man

    “There should always be a higher level of justice not linked to the state.”

    No, there shouldn’t be.

    “If the UK votes for Brexit, they will have to negotiate trade deals.
    These, more than likely, will open the way for movement of labour both
    ways and nothing will have changed.”

    No, there won’t be freedom of movement of labour.

    “Better trade deals are normally negotiated from position of strength.”

    Having a trade deficit with the rest of the EU puts the UK in a position of strength to negotiate a trade deal in the mutual interests of everyone. It’s not 1 v 27, it’s 1 v 1. Somehow I doubt that German car makers would be too happy with a 12pc tariff to sell their cars in the UK.

  • babyface finlayson

    Just like Bette Davis dealing with her friend Janie Clarkson, in ‘Mr Skeffington’, the South would be delighted to have us but they can’t possibly fit us in just at the moment.
    In the movie Bette D never does get around to tea with Janie Clarkson,despite many attempted appointments.
    We are Janie Clarkson.

  • willie drennan

    “This would resemble what happens on entry to the UK from the Schengen area. It’s no great inconvenience but you can see why the Leave side plays it down. It would be bound to dent support for Brexit among unionists”.
    I actually see Brexit as offering great opportunity for all the people on the island of Ireland – contrary to the fearmongering dished out daily by both British and Irish establishments who are in bed with Brussels.
    Amending and extending the terms of the Common Travel Area could easily address any logistical challenges created by a Brexit. This is what the majority of people on these two islands would want. The relationship between ROI and UK has never been better and a Brexit will necessitate even closer working relations.

  • barnshee

    Simple British passport holders queue here ROI passport holders there

  • Skibo

    But will the Common Travel Area continue? It came into agreement when both were outside the EU. Both entered the EU and it was not required as the rights of movement within states surpassed this agreement. Will it stand with one in and one out? Can other countries object to it? Did the UK government not enshrine the veto within the EU to protect themselves. Can it then be used against then to stop the Common Travel Area?

  • Skibo

    There should always be a level of justice above the state otherwise who holds the state liable?
    Maybe you know better, tell me of those who have mage trade agreements with the EU, how many of them do not have free movement of labour?
    When the UK try to agree a trade deal they will be offering a market of approx 64million, how many more are involved in a trade agreement with the EU?
    Perhaps you are not aware but you no longer control half the world. You represent a market of 64m and thats it. You have no resources left that are worth anything. The coal is still there but it is not financially viable to mine it.
    The oil belongs to Scotland who will claim it in the event of a Brexit and vote for independence and stay in the UK

  • Skibo

    Truth hurts CM?

  • Chingford Man

    I think if you read up on the subject you will find that deals to facilitate trade do not inherently require free movement of labour. For example, see the ongoing negotiations between the EU and China over a trade deal.

    The independent UK will be a huge market for countries within the EU. Everyone will have a vested interest in ensuring that trade will continue as normal.

    Your points about coal and oil are irrelevant.

  • Roger

    Actually, I had read that piece before.

    What I don’t think it really captured is that it’s not just that the so-called CTA only benefits nationals of Ireland and the British Islands. Rather, it’s that the CTA positively works against visa required nationals.

    As in my example, a Filipino transiting through the UK to, say Sweden or the U.S., would not need a UK transit visa. It is uniquely because of the CTA that a Filipino travelling to Ireland requires a UK transit visa travelling through the UK. In addition, of course, to the Irish visa.

    I accept that for the most part, these requirements don’t affect citizens of Ireland or nationals of the British Islands. But they certainly can affect Irish nationals sometimes: those promoting tourism to Ireland from far flung places; international couples; and Irish employers hiring from visa required countries etc.

  • Skibo

    So you could not find any?
    How long has the EU and China been negotiating their deal?
    You are right everyone will have a vested interest in ensuring trade deals are made but they are inherently slow in their production. Have a look at how long TTiP has been under discussion and nothing signed yet.

  • Chingford Man

    I’ve just pointed out one very important proposed deal to you where no free movement of labour is intended, for goodness sake! Also, you make another point for me: namely that the EU has so few trade deals because with the multiplicity of interests from the member states of course the deal takes longer to complete.

  • willie drennan

    In the event of a Brexit the terms of the CTA will remain very important for the stability of both British and Irish economies.
    It is difficult to imagine why the EU would want to impinge upon the economic stability of one of its member states.
    An independent UK would remain one of the EU’s trading parties and allies: in spite of threats presently coming from Eurocrats who desperately do not want the UK to leave. Considering the state that the EU is currently in I don’t think they would want to cause even more economic instability within the European region.

  • Jim M

    I recently saw Eirigi posters saying Vote Leave…. Dunno re the other wee factions though.

  • Skibo

    See Willy you are making assumptions. The CTA was set up when both countries were outside the EU and was not actually required while both are inside. In the event of a Brexit, I like you can only assume that legislation between a country inside and a country outside would be up for scrutiny by the rest of the countries within the EU and I believe all countries have a veto on such matters.
    The instability within the EU will not be assisted by the UK leaving. Why would the rest of the countries want to help the UK after that?

  • Chingford Man

    Not at all. I quite enjoy your dumb comments.

  • Chingford Man

    Perhaps you can point out the authority by which the EU can veto any deal between the UK and the Republic to maintain a CTA?

  • Skibo

    My dumb comments, you hurt my feelings, and I thought we were getting on so well!

  • Skibo

    None at the moment but should one be in and one out, that would alter the playing field.

  • Katyusha

    I do not have any faith in the EU to produce any sort of document in a two-year timeframe. They can’t even agree to hold their own parliament sessions in one building.
    In the event of Brexit, British and European firms will continue to trade in the absence of any legislation. If this means paying current EU trade tariffs, then so be it.
    Any actual, formalised EU-wide trade deal will be a decade in the making. The best you can hope for is that Germany decides to strike a de facto bilateral trade deal with the UK, and other nations follow suit, thus ignoring European institutions and exercising their national sovereignty.

  • Katyusha

    Internal passports may be a good idea. Some countries use them for internal transit, for example Russia. Such a document could be agreed beween the UK and the RoI, thus extending the Common Travel Area without much concern.
    But I don’t think such a move would go over well in the UK, given the deep-seated opposition to simple ID cards.

  • Katyusha

    There should indeed always be a higher level of justice not linked to the state, or at least not linked to the national parliament. We simply cannot trust parliament to always respect the human and civil rights of its citizens. A politically neutral Supreme Court would have much the same effect, but as far as I understand it, such a concept would be incompatible with the UK’s doctrine of Parliamentary Sovereignty, an outdated concept of there ever was one.
    The ECHR has been one of the great successes of European integration, protecting individual citizens from abuse at the hands of their government. Particularly in the former Soviet-controlled regimes of Eastern Europe, the power of the ECHR to intervene and prevent an authoriatarian government from using the appartus of the state to oppress their people is a great victroy for human and civil rights.
    Hence we should treat the desire of the Tories to withdraw from the Human Rights Acts with the utmost suspicion.

  • Francesco Nicoli

    please, get your facts right.

  • Chingford Man

    I don’t think German car makers will be happy paying 12pc import tariffs to sell their cars into the UK for a whole decade.

    As I have already said over and over again on Slugger, it is in the interests of the EU to sort out a severance package with Brexit Britain because the 2 largest remaining EU countries, France and Germany, would lose out badly from British tariffs on their products.

  • Kevin Breslin

    The EU would have to violate the Amsterdam Treaty to impose Schengen on the Republic of Ireland. I would see the EU wanting to maintain Ireland’s opt out unless for some reason other EU nations demand a treaty change on it.

    The problem is that the UK maybe even France wanting to have its cake and eat it on migration will not be able to prevent migration at what is effectively an EU frontier without some sort of border checks.

    The issue is that if Britain has issues its “marine border” with France, then they may want a mission creep over Ireland’s “marine border” with France, if not with itself too.

  • Katyusha

    I agree that it is in the interests if the EU to establish a trade agreement with the UK. I do not believe it is within the capability of the EU to finalise such a deal within two years.

    You are right that the German auto OEMs are not going to tolerate 12pc tariffs. If there looks to be resistance to agreement at a European level, they will pressure the German government to act unilaterally, as was done when Germany invited over a million refugees to cross over other European nations and ignored the Dublin protocol. And if there seems to be no progress at a federal German level, they will establish a workaround themselves. Unfortunately, most businesses do not have the kind of power that Volkswagen and Mercedes have.

    The most likely scenario is that there is vague agreement that we trade based on historical norms until a comprehensive framework can be established, and the EU does what it does best: muddle through the crisis by kicking the can down the road.

    I would also suggest that it is not in the UK’s interests to impose punitive tarriffs and risk starting a trade war with the EU. We do not have anywhere near the amount of leverage that pro-Brexit groups like to suggest. You just need to look at Cameron haggling over in-work benefits to see how difficult it is for Britain to try and negotiate forcefully at a European level.

  • Actually the solution is to have security checks at the Common Travel Area level – which coincidentally are already in place with the UK & Ireland already sharing such data and the UK providing the ROI with some of the tech required. Secondary checks such as photo id already occur for flights and ferries within the CTA.

  • Kevin Breslin

    There are customs checks going into Switzerland
    https://www.ch.ch/en/how-clear-personal-goods-purchased-abroad/

  • Kevin Breslin

    Solves nothing, cross-border security checks are an expensive panacea. Even the DUP admit when the security checks were in place the Provisional IRA only improved their ability to undermine them.

    The E-border seems to be sufficient for the status quo, if the UK wants to get more extreme on the few people who leave Ireland (either part of that) to enter GB with checkpoints, it’s going to have to put the money down itself because I don’t see Stormont even with a slim “big U” Unionist majority voting for it.

    The death rate during the Troubles in small border towns and the outer reaches of Derry and Newry was minuscule, particularly in comparison to Belfast based Belfast problems.

    Those suggesting we should increase border patrol, have to find the funds, because it’s a case of cutting police officers on the beat in border areas and making them focus on Polish hill walkers who have the right to travel on one side of a mountain but not on the other, while Irish and British drug dealers operating get a blind eye turned to them to enforce this complicated system.

    It’s pure gallery playing by people who don’t like people North and South of the border mingling with one another in a normal fashion. It does nothing to encourage anyone from Great Britain to mingle with people either side of this island either. It does play to communal trench groups though.

    What really does tackle cross border and indeed cross island and indeed cross continental sharing of security. More can be done realising that terrorists and criminals don’t simply target border crossings, and especially not legal border crossings.

    Net migration is around 2,000 a year in Northern Ireland, the most worried are people in Northern Antrim which has some of the lowest migration rates…but some of the biggest problems with it.

    In terms of representatives by virtue of the DUP and TUV having 35% of the vote, even before we factor in People before Profit’s stance and individuals within the other parties who may defect a little on this matter (Jenny Palmer?) we have the most pro-Brexit chamber in these islands (even more than Westminster) and people want to migrate out of it rather than into it.

    I don’t see anyone who opposes migration showing how much they help their fellow native compete and prepare for jobs. Unemployment existed before any migration, and there’s no reason to believe that British (and Irish) people enthusiastic about their say in British (and Irish) sovereignty one day, and going to be equally enthusiastic about picking strawberries for minimum wage on a zero hour contract the next day.

  • Kevin Breslin

    It cannot address customs, as the UK cannot have a common customs arrangement with the Republic of Ireland, and the Republic of Ireland a common customs arrangement with the EU, without the UK having the same customs arrangement as the EU and the Republic of Ireland.

  • Kevin Breslin

    It’s not going to be the EU that will do it, undermining the Republic of Ireland’s opt out is a violation of the Amsterdam Treaty. So unless Brexit somehow creates a homegrown refugee crisis from Britain to Ireland that makes it think again…something which isn’t impossible, a treaty change is unlikely to be driven by the EU, but the EU may have to change the treaty for the UK’s sake.

    For example The Republic of Ireland will allow free movement, if the United Kingdom wants to end free movement, something needs to be put in place on the Irish border to ensure those who can freely move in the Republic of Ireland don’t enter the United Kingdom via Northern Ireland.

  • Tochais Siorai

    Change 50 years in the future to 50 hours in the future and you could be onto something……..

  • Tochais Siorai

    And surely the people with a functioning brain in the DUP must be privately supporting Remain.

  • John Devane

    Precisely. What was independence all about if one becomes subjected and consumed by the EU’s ever closer political union

  • barnshee

    “The oil belongs to Scotland who will claim it in the event of a Brexit and vote for independence and stay in the UK”

    The oil belongs to BP Shell Conoco etc They can take it ashore anywhere it suits them

  • Jollyraj

    50 hours, hmm? Is that the latest SF ‘can’t lose guaranteed’ timeframe for the old UI? Might as well, I suppose – not as if their voters are likely to ever hold them to account.

  • Tochais Siorai

    Where did I mention SF?

  • Skibo

    The oil belongs to Scotland. The right to extract it belongs to those who hold the licenses, not only the big boys but an increasing number of independents also. They pay three types of tax on all oil they extract.
    That revenue will go with Scotland in the event of independence.
    There will be a major moratorium on who has control of what in the North Sea as Westminster has tried to claim a large swath of Scotlands’ reserves. International law will resolve this and return those reserves to Scotland.

  • Jollyraj

    They say they are the only all Ireland party, therefore your interests presumably are intertwined, aren’t they?

  • Kevin Breslin

    Another aspect is to change the Communities Act to redress perceived injustices carried out by foreign welfare tourists etc … however the idea that somehow a one way street and the UK citizen should continue to enjoy EU largess without reciprocation measures is a complete myth.

    Look at the EU’s recent crackdown on Switzerland, where they eventually u-turned their discrimination towards Croatian Erasmus students.

    The fact that the EU is likely to respond hostile to amending the Communities Act and may reciprocate is likely to put a burden upon the Republic of Ireland to crack down on entitlements given to British citizens that are not being provided to their EU neighbours either.

    The UK has no entitlement to a special treatment, that the people of the United States, the people of Canada, Australia, Switzerland or Norway get either.

    It is questionable that the UK can do a bilateral deal with the Republic of Ireland that allows it to discriminate against people from Eastern European countries, while the Republic of Ireland is in the European Union where people from these Eastern European countries are entitled to equal rights and membership.

  • Reader

    The numbers in that chart are tiny – do you have a chart for working tax credits and similar?

  • Reader

    Are you suggesting that the Republic of Ireland will choose to join Schengen?

  • Kevin Breslin

    Completely irrelevant with regards to customs because CAP does not apply to Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Norway. If you do the research you will see there are customs posts between EU and non-EU Schengen neighbours.

    And customs posts were the norm on the border before the UK and the Republic of Ireland joined the EEC, and while UK was a member of the European Free Trade Association.

    Are you suggesting that the United Kingdom will stop customs posts at Westminster level and effectively make the European Union pay the customs duty for both the Republic of Ireland goods going into the United Kingdom and vice versa because the 26 and 27 other European Union nations should put the United Kingdom’s interests before their own?

  • Kevin Breslin

    The numbers are tiny on that chart because unemployed EU nationals is a tiny and often a temporary problem, that has been grossly exaggerated by the media. With the handbrake introduction these numbers will reduce even further.

    With regards to working tax credits, there are plenty of conflicting estimates on the internet. I would say that as someone who once had claimed working tax credits it’s often over looked that the person claiming them is providing a labour service … ergo the name.

    There is a big question to be asked about British business culture as to why the UK is the only EU country where local denizens have a higher unemployment rate than migrants from elsewhere.

    If the UK is the only 1 out of 28 nations this is true for, then surely the UK needs to address its own culture as to why it overlooks homegrown talent that is more likely to stay in the country, have stronger networks within the country, and is slightly fresher and younger than the more experienced migrants that are brought in.

  • Kevin Breslin

    With regards to America and Canda getting special treatment being exclusionary to “ex Communist countries” … http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-considers-restricting-visa-free-travel-for-americans-canadians/

  • Tochais Siorai

    If they say that, they are of course wrong. As are your presumptions.

  • Sir Rantsalot

    If you are someone who believes that our future depends on what we agree with the EU for trade, you don’t have a clue who makes the rules ! 🙂
    Honestly, the big corporations make the rules to further their business and profits. It doesnt matter at all about international rules. MPs MEPs, Primisters, they are all just ‘plebs’. The governments are told what to agree to enable, big companies to trade.
    Your MEP is not influencial in anything. Unless we leave the EU, we will have no say in what happens in our country.

    Unless you are a moron, look at this vid.

    This is from a German guy. It was posted on FB in 2012, so well before the Brexit stuff.

    https://youtu.be/xMuUEd6w54E

  • Reader

    Kevin Breslin: I would say that as someone who once had claimed working tax credits it’s often over looked that the person claiming them is providing a labour service … .
    Or selling “the big issue”
    Though my point was that JSA and its equivalents was only a small fraction of the benefits ‘balance of payments’, to the extent that your chart is not only incomplete, it is next to useless.

  • Kevin Breslin

    You cannot claim working tax credits if you do not have a residential address. If migrants are committing benefit fraud then it’s a matter for the police.

    It’s simply misanthropic to suggest street beggars often living off the freely donated money of UK citizens on the street and nothing else are generating some major financial Malthusian effect.

    The 1824 Vagrancy Act still applies (at least in England), what further punishments do you want?

    The ability to round them up and burn them all in a furnace?

    If you suspect someone is committing benefit fraud or vagrancy report them to the police whether they’ve entered legally or not is irrelevant. British and Irish people aren’t immune from these laws, so why do you think foreigners from elsewhere in the EU are?

    They cannot be punished by bad thoughts and lassiez faire magic.

  • Skibo

    What makes you think it will be any different as an independent UK? Big business has been dictating how governments have been run for a long time.