Adams ‘N’ tweet is a poor start in a message free #AE16 campaign for Sinn Fein…

Apart from the ‘did he really say that’ snark value of a tweet the Sinn Fein leader quickly removed after it created a furious back draft – the dischordant controversy lay almost entirely in his use of the word ‘Nigger’ (something that made even the blushing subs at the Washington Post foreswear a simple repetition) rather than any inappropriate misapplication:


The Sinn Fein President has been playing a loose game in comparative language for a very long time, but it has taken a particularly ‘adventurous’ turn since his failure to gain entry to the Obama White House at St Patrick’s Day celebrations, and his ‘back of the bus’ remarks

Within a short time the tweet had been removed and a press statement released:

The ‘complaint’ about context is interesting. It seems to suggest that if only people knew about the historical lives in Ballymurphy (a huge housing development ‘dumped’ on the outer edge of Belfast without shops, schools or even a church in the late 1940s) they might understand the parallel with the ultimate withdrawal of human identity suffered by African Americans in slavery. 
I’ll leave the reader to draw her own conclusions on that question.

To take a more parochial view of the matter (which will surely blow over before some of Mr Adams other – and far more serious – policy missteps) it’s hard not to see it as another wilful if arbitrary shot in the party’s foot as we enter the final week of an election campaign which in the absence of any substantial message (and a near content free manifesto) has been Sinn Fein’s defining feature.

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  • Jollyraj

    “People just woke up one morning and decided that taking on a highly trained, well armed professional army that outnumbered them by thousands ”

    Crouching in ditches and shooting milkmen or postmen. Putting bombs under family cars. I’m not sure you really understand the nature of most IRA ops.

  • Jollyraj

    It’s the fault of unionists that Adams likes to use the N word to describe black people?

    Not seeing that, lad…

  • congal claen

    Hi Anglo,
    Yes we would become competitors. However, as we buy more from Europe than we sell I would suggest the arrangement suits the EU quite well.
    Then there’s the rest of the world. Free from the EU the UK could broker it’s own deals much more quickly that suit the UK. For example, why should I pay a tariff for Australian, South African, Chilean wine? But none for EU wine. We hardly produce any, so it doesn’t affect us . But because of the EU we have to. The EU is also becoming more and more protectionist putting up more and more technical barriers to trade. For example Sweden complaining about cheap lobster from the States on the basis of some bacteria or virus. Whereas in reality it’s to block the States as Sweden can’t compete on price.

  • citizen69

    Yeah, i agree with most of what you say and i am fully aware that the vast majority of members were democratically fighting for a just cause. What i was pointing out to the previous poster though was that it wasn’t unusual to also find people from the republican movement within the civil rights organisations, some of which would have had nafereous intentions.

    Don’t you think it is likely that a sizable part of the fear that “decent ordinary Unionists” had about the NICRA may have come about from reports of IRA infiltration in the civil rights movement and their acting as stewards during some demonstrations etc. which would have been siezed upon & exaggerated by Paisley & the UVF?

  • Anglo-Irish

    We buy more from Europe than we sell to them?

    I buy more from supermarkets than I sell to them, I hadn’t realised that this gives me an advantage of some kind.

    Strange thing is they keep putting the prices up and down to suit themselves, discontinuing lines and rearranging the stock as and when they please. I must use my power to stop all this type of thing.

    We can broker our own deals?

    Well yes we can, how many items do we produce which are unique to us and the buyer isn’t already purchasing from some other country that they have a current trade agreement with?

    I was in business for many years and ran my own company for the last 16 years of my working life.

    When you attempt to persuade a potential customer to use your services instead of the company they are currently using there are basically two ways to achieve that, you have to be cheaper ( more cost effective is the phrasing ) or demonstrably better or preferably both.

    It isn’t easy, people develop relationships with companies and people they have a long term relationship with and are loath to break that bond unless they have been let down or the two benefits mentioned are beyond dispute.

    Most of the politicians backing Brexit would have difficulty selling a lifebelt to a drowning man.

    Full of jingoistic crap they believe it will be all right on the night.

    If we vote to leave I hope they are right, but if so it’ll be more luck than judgement.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    I’d fully agree that the fear of serious IRA infiltration was highly exaggerated, just as the fear of what would have been a very mild Home Rule was in 1912. This seems to be a pattern. In my experience of NICRA at that time, and of the PD in which I was rather more active, the “republican threat” was a straw man. There were many many others with political skills perfectly capable of marginalising any attempt to highjack NICRAs peaceful campaigns for other purposes. But you are perfectly correct in suggesting that the late Lord Bannside and his comrade Bunting Senior (an old service friend of my grandfather) were self publicising with such scares.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Aren’t the OO’ loyalists’?

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi0rqyg9cDMAhVCF8AKHZmzDhEQFghJMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phoenixmasonry.org%2Fmasonicmuseum%2Ffraternalism%2Forange_order.htm&usg=AFQjCNGmr8tjYU1un-evf-a7IljI36vRIw

    There you go, scroll down to ‘ Obligation’ Ts&Cs apply as said.

    As for the American war of Independence the Americans would have lost without French involvement and when it came to the Irish I’d suggest that this man had more of a contribution than most.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwja4OyG-MDMAhWoJ8AKHWEJAYoQFgg0MAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ushistory.org%2Fpeople%2Fcommodorebarry.htm&usg=AFQjCNG9pQXJ71dAKtIrluv2HEn99_cH1w

    Shared history? If you are relying on the survival of the PUL community in NI on English/British sentimentality let me break it to you gently, you’re done for.

    The sobriquet ‘Perfidious Albion ‘ wasn’t dreamt up without strong supporting evidence for its veracity.

    The British establishment do not do sentimentality.

    Shared history includes ongoing insurrection, ‘loyalist’ murders of innocent civilians, collusion in murder by security forces resulting in damage to Britain’s international reputation and an ongoing cost to the British taxpayer of Billions per year.

    Some legacy that is.

    As for the two World Wars a considerable number of Irishmen from what is now the ROI also served and died so no obvious reason to favour the so called ‘loyalists’ who’s intransigence is the cause of most of the problem.

    As for RN access the ROI and the UK have had mutual agreements on the subject for years and cooperate on a daily basis.

    Are you aware that the lifeboat service operating in the ROI is the RNLI?

    Two islands in such close proximity with the shared history they have would be crazy to refuse to cooperate in a friendly manner.

    There is no British Interest in maintaining the current situation, there is a clear British interest in altering things to a mutually agreed arrangement whereby Ireland is United and retains close ties and internationally binding agreements with its ally Britain.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Northern Irish Unionists, a group of people who were born and raised in Ireland and are descended from people who have lived in Ireland for anything up to 400 years.

    Despite this they are vehemently adamant that they are not Irish.

    People from all over the world emigrate to America, Canada,Australia, New Zealand, Irish Republic, Britain etc etc and within two or three generations will proudly claim to be from those countries.

    Those people more often than not retain their religion and an affection for ‘the old country’, this does not stop them from assimilating into the country of their birth.

    Not the NI unionist though, he/she insists that they are British against all available evidence to the contrary.

    The British passport – which they are entitled to as citizens – makes the point by specifically identifying Northern Ireland as a separate entity to Great Britain, yet they still claim to be British as opposed to British citizens.

    The inbred bigotry and determination to emphasise their difference from the Taigs together with the formalised rituals of aggression shown in the annual marches and bonfires is the very epitome of racism.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjEv7ryhsHMAhXnIsAKHXBjADgQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oxforddictionaries.com%2Fdefinition%2Fenglish%2Fracism&usg=AFQjCNGy-Tcq5lTAEaIhFX3ex_dEF_tsXQ

    How many do I need to know?

  • Anglo-Irish

    Yes, definitely not cricket, why didn’t they wear redcoats and march in an orderly fashion toward the enemy?

    Strangely enough the British Army didn’t take the same view as you, they gave respect where they felt it was due.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwifjLKDjcHMAhUkKsAKHYQ8C0wQFggpMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F2%2Fhi%2Fuk_news%2Fnorthern_ireland%2F6276416.stm&usg=AFQjCNHmGkEhy3apMQaNoIuA0evYzWfNhA

    Also the British special forces in WW2 and after based many of their tactics on the IRA war of independence tactics.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiZleiYi8HMAhXLAsAKHV-dCrAQFghBMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcurrent-magazines.atholbooks.org%2Freaders%2Ffull_article.php%3Farticle_id%3D71%26%26title%3DBritish%2520war%2520strategy%2C%2520the%2520SOE%2520and%2520the%2520IRA&usg=AFQjCNFTSdQeFhczNUxgu3Cnxxi8e3ov4Q

    As Patton so succinctly put it, ‘ the object is not to die for your country ,it’s to get the other man to die for his.’

    Tell me, as you’re such a moralist in these matters what do you think about the fact that the PIRA killed a bigger percentage of those who were in a position to fight back than any of the other combatants?

    The ‘loyalists’ achieved 87.2% civilian deaths among those they killed.

    Also, perhaps you could give us your stance on the use of drones as a method of killing an enemy thousands of miles away with no risk whatsoever to the operator and the inevitability of civilian deaths?

    Or is it only Irish Republicans that need to apply strict Marquess of Queensbury rules in your world?

  • cu chulainn

    This is the usual trick of minimising the impact of the British colonisation. It may not have been as bad as x, y, or z elsewhere in the world, but it is wrong none the less and it is time it was ended.

  • Jollyraj

    “Strangely enough the British Army didn’t take the same view as you, they gave respect where they felt it was due.”

    Well, I had friends and colleagues in the British Army, and neither they nor I had any real respect for the IRA.

    As for your comment about the IRA attacking people who were in a position to fight back, very rarely the case.

    Unarmed policemen and part-timers on their day jobs being blown up or ambushed – is that who you are referring to?

  • Anglo-Irish

    I also had both friends and colleagues who were former British Army and served in NI, their view was different from your friends.

    Perhaps your friends belonged to this 39% of the British Army?
    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjAlKO6ysLMAhUkKsAKHadtCxQQFghBMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Feducation-23346693&usg=AFQjCNFdm8lvuOZK9nOqSCx-ToaUBqdkdQ

    The report which was referred to in the link which I provided was commissioned by the senior command under the instruction of General Sir Mike Jackson, at that time Chief of General staff and a man who had served in NI including being present as a junior officer in Derry on Bloody Sunday.

    The study was an internal British Army report and the people who compiled it were considered the correct people to do so by the Army.

    There is no reason on this earth why they would seek to provide any credit to the PIRA and in fact the document was originally intended to be viewed only by army personnel and those with close association to them.

    Therefore, the assessment that PIRA were ” a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force ” whilst the ‘loyalists’ and minor republican groups were ” little more than a collection of gangsters ” can be taken as the considered opinion of the British army at the top level.

    That report was carried out in 2007 nine years after the GFA when the dust had settled and a controlled overview could be taken.

    The British did not obtain an Empire by jingoistic BS they leave that to the cannon fodder they use for the dirty stuff.

    Those in command take a far more dispassionate view of events.

    Incidentally, 52% of British army killings were unarmed civilians, 87.2% ‘loyalist’ killings and 36% of IRA were also civilians, so good luck with your ongoing futile attempt to claim it was all ‘ themuns ‘ fault.

    Now, about those government sanctioned drone strikes, what do you reckon?

  • Tochais Siorai

    Except the IRA didn’t blow up Nelson’s Pillar.

  • congal claen

    Hi Anglo,
    If you only bought from one supermarket you’re analogy would work. I’d argue you should choose to trade with several.

  • Anglo-Irish

    I do choose to trade with several, I have loyalty cards from two but shop in four. Doesn’t make a blind bit of difference if I only shopped in one or more.

    As regards UK trade with the EU and all these other countries that we are going to do such amazing trade with once free from our EU shackles, will it really be that simple?

    How many of our products or services are unique to us and must be obtained from us without competition?

    How many are obtainable from other countries who already have trade agreements and a record of providing said items to the market we are hoping to exploit?

    EU tariffs will be applicable to our goods as and if the EU see fit to impose them.

    In the case of us supplying goods or services which are currently also supplied by other EU members you can be fairly certain that upon Brexit tariffs will be applicable in at least some instances.

    As for the non EU countries that we are suddenly going to do roaring trade with as I’ve said they already have current suppliers with contracts in place.

    For a country with an aging population, an unimpressive productivity rating, an ailing industrial base and which is trillions in debt and has sold off most of its assets to foreign companies the optimism of the Brexit supporters is somewhat misplaced in my view.

    Obviously I could be mistaken, upon leaving a newfound confidence, vitality and – thus far well hidden – marketing brilliance will be discovered and we will all live happily ever after.

  • Msiegnaro

    Behave Thomas.

  • congal claen

    Hi Anglo,

    Like the vast majority of loyalists I’m not in the OO. Again, demonstrating your lack of insight into the loyalist mindset.
    How many times are you going to bring up Commodore Barry? You brought him up the last time! Have you not been able to find any other examples?
    As for the rest of your post you could be in line for editor of Gerry’s Twitter account…

  • congal claen

    Hi Anglo,

    I wasn’t actually suggesting you only shop in one supermarket. It was your analogy wasn’t very good.

    You’re obviously not very impressed with the UK and the products/services it supplies. You need to look at high end and niche services. The UK is a world leader in financial services. Law is also an area where we excel. There is lots of high end engineering and electronics – F1, Military, ARM, HiFi, etc.

    Despite this, you think unionists will inevitably see the logic of a UI. What advantage would there be there? A few years tax from large US multinationals using it as a tax haven which will go with EU tax harmonisation, not to mention the US clamping down on it. For example, what happened to Pfizer’s reverse takeover of Allergan?

  • Reader

    Declan Doyle: lest Protestants be contaminated by contact with the vile Taigs.
    It was your lot that insisted on segregated education, and the education system in the South should have been a clue.
    So, would you care to edit your speculative explanation to something that at least matches the facts?

  • Reader

    Anglo-Irish: yet they still claim to be British as opposed to British citizens.
    British citizens are British (even if they have never been on that big island).
    Irish Citizens are Irish (even if they have never been in the State)
    I am a unionist; I identify as British, Irish and Northern Irish. According to your second paragraph, that means I’m not actually a unionist. I assure you – I am.

  • Anglo-Irish

    I’m not too impressed with the UK ‘niche’ marketing strategy because I live in the North of England.

    The City and Financial services were bailed out following acts of stupidity, greed and fraud but no such concern is shown to the steel and manufacturing industries.

    The UK economy is unhealthily biased toward the South East and services rather than achieving a broad based economy where industrial production plays a part.

    Germany was never stupid enough to make that mistake and has the economic power to show for its foresight.

    Are you under the impression that Finance and Law are somehow attached to London in some unbreakable manner?

    The Libor scandal has done damage to the reputation of British Banking.

    No doubt Wall Street, Frankfurt, Hong Kong and Singapore are keeping a close eye on things and will act in their own self interest given any encouragement whatsoever.

    The London Stock Exchange is currently the subject of offers from both the Germans and the Americans.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi215CIi8PMAhVEshQKHdkqDJ8QFghFMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thisismoney.co.uk%2Fmoney%2Fmarkets%2Farticle-3499305%2FAmericans-set-gatecrash-Germany-s-21bn-bid-London-Stock-Exchange.html&usg=AFQjCNGvCUejJlrNBqFI2G2FbjHEZT0uvw

    The people who work in these jobs will relocate in a flash given the right incentives.

    As for unionists seeing logic, given their behavior over the years I doubt that is likely to happen.

    My point is that in time it won’t matter one iota what unionists want or think, demographics 50%+1 remember?

    It’s called democracy, something the unionists were very much in favour of when they had a gerrymandered majority, I’m sure they’ll accept a genuine democratic majority with the good grace they are noted for.

  • Anglo-Irish

    I’m the one that lacks knowledge about the PUL community?

    I had to inform you that there is such a thing as a ‘loyal’ oath, shows what an expert you are on the matter.

    If you expect someone of my age to remember who it was I was debating with ‘last time’ whenever the hell that was you’re going to be sadly disappointed.

    As to bringing the Commodore up again, I was unaware that there is a moratorium against mentioning a subject more than once.

    If such a rule exists there are a number of posters you need to mention it to because ‘bee in bonnet’ doesn’t go close to describing some posters.

    As for the Commodore himself, what’s the problem, not able to find a protestant Ulsterman of such eminence?

  • Anglo-Irish

    You couldn’t be more wrong.

    I am an Irish citizen, I have the passport to prove it, I am not Irish I am Anglo-Irish.

    Are you trying to say that there is no difference between a person born in Britain and someone born elsewhere with a right to citizenship?

    Are you saying that an Irish person born in NI with 100% Irish ancestors on both paternal and maternal sides of their family is British?

    If you were in fact British as opposed to a citizen of the country why is Northern Ireland specifically mentioned on the front of a British passport?

    There is no mention of England, Scotland or Wales for the simple reason they are part of Great Britain.

    Northern Ireland is a separate entity and identified as such.

    As for you being a unionist, I was under the impression that being a unionist is a political viewpoint and has nothing to do with nationality.

    A unionist is someone who believes in and wishes to remain in the union, yes?

    In which case you could be a druid from Madagascar living in the UK and be a unionist couldn’t you?

  • congal claen

    Hi Anglo,

    You said “The ‘loyalist’ oath of allegiance” as if there is some oath all loyalists take. There isn’t. You then said it was the OO oath of allegiance. I would expect I don’t have to spell out the difference.
    Anglo, you produced the commodore in response to the links I provided to you showing mass involvement by the Scotch Irish in the US War of Independence. Remember the “Presbyterian War” description? I therefore didn’t think you required individual names. That would be like pointing out individual names to prove Britain’s involvement in WW2! It’s not necessary.

  • congal claen

    Hi Anglo,
    The banks only needed bailed out because like most countries we operate a fractional banking system. It only takes a small number of unpaid debts to cause he run. So, rather than everyone go to the wall the government stepped in with TEMPORARY help. The loans are already being paid back and will continue to be paid back. Compare and contrast with the Steel industry. Sad though it is, they might as well throw the money into the blast furnaces.
    Finance and law are largely based on the UK because of historical connections. Even time revolves around GMT. Don’t be so hard on yourself Anglo, you’re not all bad ;0)
    Should the LSE be sold it’ll still remain in the UK. It actually shows you that the strength of the City that the Germans want in on the action.
    As for democracy, Irish Nationalism was offered basically what they have now with the 3rd Home rule Bill in 1914. But, rather than proceed democratically 1916 happened. Then they lost the 1918 UK election to the Conservative and Unionists. They then turned to a terrorist campaign in 1919. Before going with the treaty in 1921/2. UI by consent accepted in 1998. I’m sure loyalists have learnt the lessons well…

  • Anglo-Irish

    What I said was ‘ The loyalist’ oath of allegiance to the crown being the only one I’m aware of which contains ‘terms and conditions’ ‘.

    That you took it to mean some oath that all ‘loyalists’ took is down to you.

    Is there an oath to the crown taken by ‘loyalists’?

    Yes there is.

    Had you actually known of it then your response would have been ‘ that oath is only taken by members of the Orange Order’.( Which matters little as my point was that it is an official oath which is deliberately disingenuous.)

    Instead of which you replied ‘ Never heard of it’.

    Your evident pride in the Scotch Irish part in the American War of Independence given your claim to be a ‘loyalist’ is quite ironic don’t you think?

    That was a rebellion against the British crown brought about by dissatisfaction over taxes, ” No taxation without representation ” being the bloodcurdling battle cry of those desperate for freedom.

    All of whom were in fact traitors to the crown.

    Ulster ‘loyalism’ is a strange thing isn’t it? It seems to me that it has more to do with self interest than any actual loyalty.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjmgtv6oMPMAhWBwxQKHZotCfoQFggnMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aohflorida.org%2Firish-role-in-american-independence%2F&usg=AFQjCNHaa3s8W5-UNDOs6P1BjLogp3wlDw

    That link gives due credit to the Ulster Scots Irish and also points out that quite a number of Catholic Irish were involved Lord Mountjoy claimed in parliament that the Irish language was commonly spoken in the American ranks.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Your view of how things work is rather weird.

    The connection with finance and law in the UK is based on historical connections?

    Well that’s alright then, written in stone, never to be changed.

    British Steel was once the pride of the country, we invented stainless steel here in Sheffield. Then it was sold to foreign buyers and now it’s no longer British, despite assurances given at the time of takeover.

    If the Germans or Americans take over the LSE they will also no doubt give assurances which they will then ignore if convenient and profitable to do so.

    Offered Home rule in 1914?

    You’re having a laugh right?

    The British government spent 30 months putting the Home Rule Bill through the Imperial parliament despite which they failed to implement the Act when it was passed.

    The most powerful government in the world at that time which was making laws for a quarter of the worlds population and enforcing them throughout the Empire failed to implement an Act giving limited self rule to Ireland with a parliament in Dublin.

    The 1918 election in Ireland resulted in Sinn Fein winning 73 out of 105 seats.

    Tell me, when there is a referendum in about 30 years time and a United Ireland is the result what ‘lesson’ are the ‘loyalists’ going bring to the situation?

    When the British make it clear that they accept the result and will do everything possible to facilitate a peaceful handover what can the ‘loyalists’ do?

    Resort to violence, their usual knee jerk reaction to just about everything?

    To what purpose?

    Take us back or we’ll kill you, the pathetic cry of the rejected lover, think they’ll give that one a go?

  • Alan N/Ards

    “Northern Irish Unionists, a group of people who were born and raised in Ireland and are descended from people who have lived in Ireland for anything up to 400 years.”

    As someone who belongs to this group of people I am very proud to be Northern Irish. I use a UK passport when travelling but when asked where I am from I always answer Northern Ireland. I don’t have an Irish passport (yet) but my wife has used one and has no problem stating that she is Northern Irish when asked where she is from.

    “Despite this they are vehemently adamant that they are not Irish.”

    That is certainly true of some unionists. But not of all of us. Have you ever been to an Ireland rugger international game? If you had ever been to one you would know that many unionists support the team and indeed play for it. Are they racist, bigoted etc? Do they not chant “Ireland, Ireland” along with the rest of the Irish fans? Yes, they (myself included) do not and never will sing the Irish anthem or claim the flag of the republic as our own but our Irishness is not defined by these things.

    If we take a walk back through the past 100 years there are many events that stand out (for me) in pushing unionism (wrongly) away from their Irishness. One of them is that awful man de Valera and his comments that Ireland is a Catholic nation and will remain so. He and his cohorts excluded over a million people from the nation by this statement. Was he right to exclude over a million Irishme/women from the nation?

    “The inbred bigotry and determination to emphasise their difference from the Taigs together with the formalised rituals of aggression shown in the annual marches and bonfires is the very epitome of racism.”

    I assume that you are talking about the Orange Order of Ireland. Just like the vast majority of unionists I’m not a member. I have no time for it (along with a lot of other sensible unionists). My children have never attended a parade or bonfire and never will while they are children. I agree that OO gives unionism a bad name but (hopefully) the day will come when they fade away.

    “How many do I need to know?”

    Don’t believe all that Gerry Adams says is true. Not all unionists are anti Irish and bigoted.

    PS.
    Is there ever a day that you are not nasty and aggressive?

  • Anglo-Irish

    Then you are not a racist which I’m sure also applies to quite a reasonable number of your fellow unionists.

    However, you surely wouldn’t deny that a substantial number of unionists do define themselves by the fact that they claim that they are not Irish they are British would you?

    That is clearly racist and applies to many unionists does it not?

    The English tend to be casual racists in that they apply nick names to many other nationalities.

    As I’m sure you are aware they make absolutely no differential between unionists and nationalists, if you speak with an Irish accent you’re a Paddy.

    My input to this forum is that of an outsider who happens to be interested because of my mixed bloodline but my Irish side is from the ROI.

    It seems to me that the views of someone who is outside looking in can be interesting in as much as it provides a bit of information as to how others perceive the situation.Perhaps I’m wrong in that.

    Northern Ireland tends to get ignored in Britain and unfortunately only merits a mention when the news is bad.

    Glad to hear not all unionists are bigots. I suspected that might be the case but there are posters on here that can give that impression.

    I’m not a big fan of Gerry by the way, prefer Martin and I’m not exactly looking for his autograph.

    As for my attitude, whilst by nature I’m amiable enough it’s also true that it doesn’t take much, in real life or on the internet to ‘get me going’. I tend to be a counter puncher though and respond in kind to what comes at me. Emotion and intent can sometimes be difficult to assess on a forum.

    Sorry if you felt offended.

  • Alan N/Ards

    I don’t deny that there are unionists who say that they are British only. At the same time it’s unlikely that they would deny that they are from NI. There will be many unionists going to France to cheer on the NI team in a few months time, and I’m sure some of them are from the British only camp. I, for one, struggle with how they define themselves. But are they racist?

    Is England part of Europe? If it is, why do many English people deny that they are European? Is it racist to deny that you are part of Europe? Does not wanting to be under the authority of Brussels make you a racist? Does not wanting to be under the authority of Dublin make unionists racists?

    You mentioned how many people who emigrate become, within two or three generations, will proudly claim to come from those countries. I suppose that happened when the Irish Presbyterians went to the America’s, and became scotch Irish, and then, finally, American’s. The same cannot be said of the Irish catholic’s who see themselves as Irish American’s and not just American. I have met a number of third and fourth generation Americans who really think that they are Irish. They get very angry if you tell them that they are American.

    “The English tend to be casual racists in that they apply nick names to many other nationalities.”

    Really. No blacks, no Irish, no dogs comes to mind a few decades ago. Are the EDL and other extreme groups casual racists?

    I know that the vast majority of English people are not racist and I will not try to tar them to the bigots who are. I’m glad that you realise that many unionists are respectable people and have no time for racism of any kind. Thank you for that.

  • Anglo-Irish

    A lot of questions there Alan, let me try to answer them as I see it, my opinion only you understand?

    If you are born in a country and are descended from people who for generations were also born in that country but you deny that you are from that country, then yes I think you are a racist.

    Is England part of Europe?

    Yes it is both geographically and historically part of Europe, its population is mainly a mixture of Anglo- Saxon, French Norman, Celtic, Jutes and Frisians all of whom are of European origination.

    However, that is only factual, and as we know facts tend to be ignored when xenophobia takes over.
    So yes, but weirdly debatable.
    Racist? Possibly, but casual. : )

    Not wanting to be under the authority of Brussels or Dublin does not make you racist providing that your objection is purely political.

    On the other hand, if your main objection is that you don’t want ‘themuns’ to have any input into your life whether or not ‘themuns’ may be more capable of organizing things than the bunch of numpties currently in charge, then yes you are a racist.

    My experience of Americans, having visited the country and worked for an American organization is that they tend to describe themselves as Italian American, German American, Greek American, Irish American etc.

    Their main emphasise being American, respect and acknowledgement of their background but American first and foremost.

    Generally speaking the English aren’t racist in an aggressive manner, xenophobic and under the impression that God was an Englishman, yes but not in a way that can’t be dealt with by taking the pee.

    The BNP and EDL are like the ‘loyalist’ bonfire flag and effigy burning element in Northern Ireland, the difference being that whilst both are in a minority the ‘loyalists’ are a greater percentage of the NI PUL community than the BNP and EDL are of the English community.

  • congal claen

    Hi Anglo,

    There is no “the” loyalist oath of allegiance. You’ve extrapolated to make a badly made point which highlights your lack of insight. If you had said “a” loyalist oath of allegiance you may have had more of an argument. But you didn’t.

    Loyalty is a 2 way thing. Hence the US war of Independence and the side taken by the Scotch Irish and indeed many of their countrymen back here. There were also prominent English supporters for example Charles James Fox. The English Civil War would suggest the English were also traitors to the Crown at a time. So, it’s not really that strange a loyalty is it?

    Your link is to the AoH. That would be like me linking to the OO to back up any assertions. It’s just a fact that the vast majority of Irish in America in 1776 were Prods from Ulster. Even Wikipedia would explain this quickly to you.

    As for the Irish language, there’s another conclusion you’re jumping to. Lots of the Ulster prods spoke Gaelic.

  • congal claen

    Hi Anglo,

    Yes, due to the historic fact of the Empire, English Common Law was the basis of law for many overseas territories and still maintained after Independence.

    Yes, offered Home Rule in 1914 with the amendment for the exclusion of Ulster. Nationalism did not accept at the Buckingham Palace Conference, so the Suspensory Act 1914 was rushed through instead.

    The 1918 election was UK wide. Whilst SF won 73 seats in Ireland the election overall was won by the Conservative and Unionists.

    Remember the point about 2 way loyalty. If GB breaks the bond I would imagine they’ll do what happened in 1912 when they suggested such a thing. It’s those 900,000 reasons again.

  • Anglo-Irish

    It was down to the British government to implement the Home Rule Act which had been passed.

    Nothing to do with nationalists, an Act was passed implementation was all that was required and it didn’t happen.

    We are only talking about Ireland here, there was an island wide general election Sinn Fein won it.

    All the misery and grief that the country has endured over the last hundred years could have been avoided if unionists were prepared to accept democracy.

    Unionists care nothing for democracy or for that matter for the union, accept in as much as it put them in power as ‘top dog’.

    Those days are gone, gone for ever.

    You can keep on clinging desperately to your 900,000 bit of an exaggeration but you are failing to factor in the age groupings aren’t you?

    More of the PUL community are in the majority in the 60+ age range whilst more of the CN community are in a majority in the 16 to 24 age group.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj5iPC32cXMAhUJBcAKHa_6CaAQFghnMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fendgameinulster.blogspot.com%2F&usg=AFQjCNEGb5zO6_8knp38S9OTsqC1K3UBIg

    Only one way this is going, 30 years tick tock. : )

  • Anglo-Irish

    And you are being deliberately obtuse.

    An oath to the crown is a loyal oath of allegiance isn’t it?

    There is an oath in Northern Ireland used by the Orange Order to claim loyalty to the British crown isn’t there?

    That oath is unique to the Orange Order and contains the conditional clause which I commented on doesn’t it?

    The OO have major influence in Northern Ireland don’t they?

    The official name of the OO is ‘ The Loyal Orange Institution’ isn’t it?

    Therefore, the answer to the question ” Is there a loyal oath of allegiance used by ‘loyalists’ in Northern Ireland? ” would be Yes, wouldn’t it?

    As for this tremendous Scotch- Irish influence in the USA, where did they all go to?

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiH9oeN4MXMAhWDHsAKHUmwBB0QFggmMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infoplease.com%2Fipa%2FA0762137.html&usg=AFQjCNHRh98i-fONV4SrAjFoZ6xfUN5T2w

    More to the point where are they still going to? A 1.2 million drop in fourteen years, they’ll be a protected species shortly!