“This is not an abortion war, completely not”. Facebook trolls lay off

This is an exclusive interview with an Ulster woman of a very different character. Deborah McAleese’s interview in the Belfast Telegraph with a housemate of the young woman convicted of self aborting  is  searing, very hard to read.

Oddly  the impact was less in voice on the Nolan show ( substitute ) because the housemate was  composed two years after the event. In  Nolan style she was pressed repeatedly for her reaction but held her ground. Her line was ” You can’t put a baby in the bin. It gives me flashbacks. It was a week before we spoke to the police.”

 I call it a baby because it had proper toes, fingers… It was a baby..”  I was preoccupied  with my friend ( the other housemate) because she had had  a miscarriage.. She offered to take the baby.. It is not an abortion war it is completely  not. We were scared, there was a baby in the bin and we didn’t know what to do…. It’s not that we wanted her punished it’s just that you can’t put a baby in the bin.  I don’t even know how to comment on the sentence. You have to abide by the law until it’s changed.

I think she felt she had  no option. She didn’t want to tell her parents. It was a huge thing to ask us not to tell . I did feel bad but there were two lives in this I had to do something.  She isolated herself. That was her choice. Two years on I would probably  have contacted someone to counsel her..  but I wasn’t there when it happened. “.  She has a new baby with a new guy now and seems ok… . I don’t want to get into this Facebook battle.”

The real life account provides powerful material for both sides of the argument over abortion. The description of  formed human features at 10 to 12 weeks regularly  used by  by “pro-life” supporters, is hard to bear. The young woman’s action is a grim product  of   the bankruptcy of  centuries of repression  which isolated and punished those who deviated from imposed norms. It is not necessary to approve of abortion” “on demand ”  to find their outlook wanting. The episode is an indictment of the establishments  who have thwarted attempts at providing sexual guidance for women every step of the way.

We are now in a sort of unsatisfactory half way house  between  formal censure and reform. No one will go to jail for self aborting though  the verdict  may be different for  anyone procuring an abortion.

The appalling individual choice the young woman made and the manner of its execution has to seen in that light. Condemnation of the housemates for reporting her to the police is equally misplaced.. It is too easy for say there were better ways.

I am as shaken as anyone by the description of a recognisable and potentially viable foetus on the way to a dustbin. But it has not changed my view that abortion should be legalised and carried out as  early as possible. Medically certainly  and even  emotionally  this is a manageable issue. The viability of human life cannot be left to “God”.  It is a matter for human decision carried in law. All parties to the tragedy should be spared the detritus of vicious comment, if necessary also by the law.

It will be interesting to read the Editor’s’ Viewpoint

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  • Cosmo

    The Truth ( if you were honest) is that the wealthy and well-connected can and always will be able to get the procedure done discreetly – while abortion being illegal, is in practical terms just discrimination against the poorer and more powerless.

  • Zorin001

    You reveal yourself there with that comment. So for example a 13 year of raped by her father and left pregnant has been indulging in extra marital relations, after all her father could still be married to her mother.

    Fatal Fetal Abnormalities another case where it’s not black and white.

    I’m Pro-Choice and proud of the fact, living in this Fundamentalist dominated Berg for over 30 years has done nothing but harden my opinions.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    This is not simply an issue of “hardship”, it is all too frequently an issue of sanity. I’ve seen instances of this myself, you clearly have not.

    You say “emotional talk”, I’d disagree. “Killing the unborn child,” now that’s emotional talk. I’m simply describing what all too frequently occurs in these situations, and all too often they are terrible, shocking situations. But at least I’m coming from what actually happens in these peoples lives, not simply from an abstract ideological position, and in your stance one primarily affecting the lives of others rather than your own I cannot help noting. I’m astonished that you can so glibly speak above of the “selfishness” of the “mother”, who is, after all the person who will carry the experience across her life, not you. It is your ideological position that is being “inconvenienced”, the person who has been put in a position where they have turned to abortion in desperation will have to carry the outcome, either way daily, not you.

  • Cosmo

    are you frothing, just a tad, at the side of the mouth….?!
    my goodness, this submission and its preoccupation (with illicit sex) really is something to keep a conference of psychiatrists busy. FOR 5 MINUTES !

  • Croiteir

    An argument which boils down to if the rich can afford do it so should the poor does not wash with me.

  • Croiteir

    A perfectly obvious reply to a nonsensical suggestion

  • Croiteir

    And?

  • Croiteir

    I have a good grip on reality. It is stupid suggestions like that that get exploited by the unscrupulous to exploit the vulnerable

  • Cosmo

    It isn’t an argument, it’s a truthful statement of fact.

  • Graham Parsons

    Why is it a nonsensical suggestion? It’s free from your GP elsewhere in the UK. You can purchase it from a chemist.

    For pro-lifers morning after pill availability is difficult one for them to argue against. Only a bible bashing fundamentalist could describe a 1-5 day bundle of cells as a baby. Plus it would mean they would have to oppose IVF clinics etc.

  • Graham Parsons

    Again please explain why it is a stupid suggestion.

  • Croiteir

    It is a paedophile charter

  • Croiteir

    I have no problem arguing against the morning after pill. It is an abortifacient drug, or st least is partly so which destroys s human being.

  • Croiteir

    It is an argument and a fatally flawed one.

  • Graham Parsons

    Why?

  • Graham Parsons

    Do you oppose IVF?

  • Croiteir

    Yes

  • Croiteir

    If someone under age is allowed access to medicines like this in this way it is very obvious what the danger is surely

  • Graham Parsons

    No it’s not obvious. On one hand you said it’s a paedo charter now you are talking about young people getting access to medicines? Why is it a paedo charter?

  • Graham Parsons

    Well at least you are consistent. Would you decline any medical treatments that were derived from the use of embryos?

  • Cosmo

    just information for evidenced-based fair decision-making in human affairs. It’s rather simple, let the woman exercise her (God-given if she wants to believe that) free will, and choose safely and to the best of her ability. A merciful God will understand.

  • Croiteir

    Making up God’s mind are ye. I do not get this safely business either. No invasive procedure is safe. People die having abortions. The argument based on whether a person can afford to fly to another jurisdiction or not is false as it does not a dress the central issue. The wilful and unnecessary destruction of a human being.

  • Cosmo

    There should be no crocodile tears shed, on womens’ safety.

    Do you think there is an argument about saving life, to be had, about passing laws on wasted human sperm, too?

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    Just a note, psychotherapy figures indicate that the age group where paedophiles occur very commonly is the teenage years so many acts of molestation are committed by teenage boys as well as by adults. Much of this is not prosecuted and the perpetrators don’t always go on to reoffend in adult life. This can be Interpreted as adolescent experimentation but how these cases emerge indicate that trauma has happened at some level.
    Obviously, a teenager requesting an abortifacient will certainly provoke some necessary questions on the degree of her consent.

  • Croiteir

    No ad hominem from you either. And I will leave the ridiculous alone.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    Women also die during pregnancy. Abortions can be essential to save a woman’s life.
    Pregnancy is not risk free and spontaneous or natural abortion, i.e. miscarriage is actually quite common. The foetus’s life (for want of a better word) is pretty precarious.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    Ad spermam is now ad hominem. Ejaculation worship should not be encouraged.

  • Cosmo

    I do think C has a point, about very young people potentially having (regular) resort or even dependence on chemical contraception. It seems to me that one answer is that schools can offer decent sex, relationship and birth control education and access to advice. That there is at least Someone who can be approached to give confidential information and guidance, on all kinds of issues.

  • Cosmo

    Very Good and interesting….
    Did you hear about attempts by some (US where else) pro-lifers to make distinctions in rape, by calling some rape ‘Forced-Rape’?
    If you didn’t struggle enough……

  • Cosmo

    Margaret Attwood is writing the novel set in the future, right now!
    But, surely the days in the past, when the Taliban Religious raged against male masturbation, aren’t that far away?
    Wasn’t that based on some theory to do with all sexual activity being restricted to conception.

  • Cosmo

    apologies on being brusque. will adapt my comment.

  • Ben De Hellenbacque

    I remember a passage in Deuteronomy that went something like that too. But in Deut’s time & place, the penalty for not saying no assertively enough was stoning to death. Unwanted children often ended up on mountainsides or in rubbish heaps in those days too.
    I also recall the murder attempts by some American … um pro-lifers on members of the medical profession. Moral compasses can be confused when there’s more than one magnetic north.

  • Graham Parsons

    Young people have sex. Who’d have thought. It happens. What is essential is that women and young girls have easy access to chemical contraception.

    Still not sure how access to the morning after pill is a paedo’s charter.

  • Croiteir

    How many women have died in the north of Ireland due to pregnancy in the past ten years?

    How many women needed an abortion to save their lives in the north of Ireland in the past 10 years.

    How many women were refused an abortion to save their lives on the past 10 years?

  • Cosmo

    Interesting questions….and while we are on statistics, just wondering do you know are there any on any positive activities/results conducted by Precious Life.
    EG:.
    1. Like number of women VOLUNTARILY consulting with them?
    2. Number of children taken to full term, who have been adopted, or re-settled with a new family
    3. Number of women who after consultation with them, decided not to have an abortion.
    etc etc.

  • Croiteir

    How do you know she was hokeing through the bin?

  • Cosmo

    …. yes, can’t see the connection with paedophilia.
    But I do have concerns about Big Pharma and the effects of chemicals on very young physiques.
    Maybe it would just be simpler if all boys had a vasectomy at age 14? It could get untied, once they decided they wanted to be supportive fathers.

  • Croiteir

    If it was not for Precious Life the pro life cause would be lost. Mrs Smyth has endured a lot including the accusations of pro abortionists which went to court and did not stand up.

  • jm

    I don’t think that’s the general consensus, Croiteir. I think the morning after pill delays or disrupts ovulation. An established pregnancy would not be aborted by the morning after pill. I’m pretty sure they are not labelled abortifacient. Someone more medically competent could perhaps confirm.

  • Croiteir

    It will not cause one either

  • Croiteir

    It is what is says. If their was no issue in law then the plaice would not be interested. But they are for it is.

  • Croiteir

    No one needs access for safe abortion in the north of Ireland and does not get it.

  • Croiteir

    I am sure if you ask them they could supply these statistics. I don’t have any connection with them that would allow me to provide those stats however ad they have worked with Stanton Health care in Belfast and Derry perhaps you can ask them.

    What I am getting to is that the occurrence of issues that require medical or surgical intervention which also necessitates the destruction of the child are extremely rare. So the argument that someone needs an abortion really does not stand.

  • jm

    Do you mean no one who needs access to a safe abortion is denied access in Northern Ireland? If so, I disagree with you. Or do you mean no one at all in Northern Ireland needs access to a safe abortion? I disagree with that too. I don’t think either of us will change our minds.

  • Croiteir

    There are abortions performed in the north to those that need them. So why would you disagree.

  • Croiteir

    I believe that they do have abortifacient ingredients.

  • jm

    Found this courtesy of Google. It looks as neutral as a quick search could offer. I now realise this does polarize opinion!

    http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/morning-after-pill/basics/why-its-done/prc-20012891

    I think it does sort of back up my assertion that the morning after pill does not end an established pregnancy, but I understand now, also courtesy of the google search, that some folk believe what takes place before the egg finds its way into the uterus and implants on the lining is thought of as pregnancy too.

  • Shar

    If I ever find an unwanted baby, I will contact the emergency services and get it the help it needs. And if anyone ever talks to me about the decision whether or not to have an abortion, I will listen to them, tell them where they can get impartial advice, and respect their decision.

    As for all these people you know who are willing to care for an unwanted child, please put them in touch with adoptionuk.org. There are tens of thousands of children in the UK in foster care and/or waiting to be adopted who need someone to provide for them.

    Government figures for England here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/464756/SFR34_2015_Text.pdf Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland figures are available on adoptionuk.org’s website.

  • Skibo

    Sorry but could you point me to this conclusive information?
    Conception is when the egg and the sperm join to form a zygote. At this stage it is not embedded fully in the womb and could be discarded by the female body.
    Should we consider the time that the cells are programmed to form organs as before this time they are just a replicating mass of cells?
    Should the formation of the brain or brain activity be a more reasonable time or the ability of the foetus to exist outside the womb? Until this time the foetus is fully dependant on the mother.

  • Skibo

    Crioteir you really need to start your posts with “I believe” as most statements you put up are not backed up with facts.
    In 2013 there were 51 abortions carried out in NI.
    In 2014 there were approximately 840 women from NI who had abortions in the UK. This is of those who gave their address as NI and does not include women who gave GB addresses.
    Now why would so many women make the expensive trip to GB when they could have had an abortion in NI? In your belief that is!

  • Skibo

    Do you oppose the pill as this also interferes with procreation in a chemical way?

  • Croiteir

    I oppose the pill as it is destroys the possibility of life unnaturally

  • Croiteir

    No I don’t. Your post verifies mine to which it was a response

  • Skibo

    And what about the condom? Sure it prevents the whole thing also!

  • Croiteir

    Correct

  • Skibo

    But the facts show that at least 840 women every year based on 2014 as a base line feel the need to travel to GB to get an abortion. Simple statistics show only 17% of the women who needed an abortion that much that the went through the traumatic process, were confident in achieving it in NI.

  • Skibo

    Bless me Father Croiter for I have sinned!

  • Croiteir

    Haven’t we all? Perhaps you can keep on subject rather than troll

  • Croiteir

    Need or want? The figures show those that need got.

  • Skibo

    I wouldn’t call it a troll. I am merely pointing out that you seem to be a member of a ultra Christian outlook who want everyone to live by your morals.
    How would you control HIV and AIDS throughout the world without condoms?
    I find it difficult as a man to dictate to women how they deal with their bodies.
    I can easily presuppose that you would not agree with abortion in the case of rape and would prefer to condemn the victim to 9 months of a sentence with the possibility of constant remembrance of her violation for the rest of her life or the insistence that a woman with a foetus with Encephalitis carries the baby to full term to then watch it either be born dead or die in her arms.

  • Skibo

    You really believe that those who travelled to GB to get this procedure carried out did not believe they needed it?
    How condescending!
    In GB the woman must have consulted two doctors prior to being approved for an abortion.

  • Croiteir

    It was as it did not stick to the debate and was pejorative in nature.
    Anyway you seem to be on track again.
    1

    How would I control HIV and AIDS. I am not a medical practitioner however I believe the way to stop them definitely is to prevent the means of infection.

    I have no problem telling people what to do with their bodies when it impacts on others. It is the basis of a lot of or laws and customs.

    In the case of rape I would not visit the guilt of the father onto the child in the form of a death sentence. 9 months of the mothers life does not equate in any form or fashion on the lifetime of the child. And why would the child remind her of the event all her life. You are straying into hyperbole there.

    In the case of the child with envaphalitis. How can you set a limit on a child’s life. How are you to be the arbiter of life and it’s value.

  • Skibo

    Croiter I have to leave this debate as time has caught up on me. I doubt anything I say will change your mind just as I don’t think anything you say will change mine.
    I, by the way would not agree with the 1967 act being enacted in NI but I do believe there needs to be changes in the archaic law within NI.
    Maybe some day you will venture into the 21st century have a wee look at what is possible and then return to the dark ages.

  • Croiteir

    Funnily enough in this thread I was told that my thinking was modern with the implication that it was a historical anomaly and that society was merely returning to the norm I’d it allowed abortion on demand. Interesting that I seem to have the most consistent line.

    But there again I return to the observation that this is the muddled philosophical consequence of turning the subjective into the objective

  • Croiteir

    Yes. Difference between need and want in the narcissistic society amounts to the same thing. Then they turn the want into a right in an attempt to make that want into an imperative.

  • Skibo

    Modern and historical in the same sentence do not make sense.

  • Skibo

    How do you relate Narcissism with those who heed an abortion? Is this not just a way to demonise those who do and so dehumanise them.
    Hitler did a similar thing in Germany demonising the Jews and so allowing the persecution of a race for their religion.

  • Croiteir

    You answer that in your question. It is based on the inability to distinguish need from want. The introverted sense of self importance that cannot understand that.

  • Croiteir

    Indeed